-1/-1 counter combo question
Asked by MarloweH 5 years ago
these cards are in my Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons -1/-1 and token EDH deck. With a token producer like Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons, Nest of Scarabs, or Flourishing Defenses along with Grim Poppet and Blowfly Infestation out, would there be an infinite supply of tokens? The deck gets kind of confusing because i get many triggered abilities. I believe several various possible win conditions could be through draining life, combat damage (extra tokens) with any of the following cards Zulaport Cutthroat, Obelisk Spider, Poison-Tip Archer, or Falkenrath Noble, Ogre Slumlord, Doubling Season, I think this is how it works. (with the cards from the first part) 1: remove a counter from the poppet 2: place a counter, get a snake, kill a snake 3: place another counter, get another snake, kill another snake 4: repeat Would the process above function and kill and create tokens infinitely?
Simply put, yes there are possiblities for infinite combos in there:
Any one of Hapatra, Nest or Defenses + cast Grim Poppet + Blowfly Infestation will result in infinite tokens.
1/ Have, for example, Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons and Blowfly Infestation.
2/ Cast Grim Poppet.
3/ Poppet entering will trigger hapatra, creating 1 snake.
4/ Use one counter from poppet to kill off a token. Blowfly sees this and triggers - put the counter on poppet. Hapatra see all this and make 2 tokens - one from the token that just died and one from Poppet getting a counter via Blowfly. Repeat ad nauseum.
Of the other cards you mentioned, Doubling Season and Ogre Slumlord will not work - ogre triggers off of nontoken creatures, while doubling season will double the counters you put on poppet, killing it before you can go infinite.
September 5, 2018 3:47 a.m.
Ah, yes, in all the typing I forgot Hapatra and Nest are "one or more" counters, and therefore would only trigger once no matter how many counters are put on a creature.
And the trick to making it infinite is that Blowfly Infestation has to put its counter on Grim Poppet, not on any snakes that are created, because the snakes won't be created until after the Infestation has already triggered and can't choose any new tokens as targets. It's not an infinite loop that runs itself, but you can get infinite tokens out of it so long as no one interrupts everything.
September 5, 2018 9:11 a.m.
Thank you for your answers. Also thanks for pointing out my mistake with Ogre Slumlord and Doubling Season. I must’ve been thinking that Ogre Slumlord triggered with tokens and I guess Parallel Lives would have to replace Doubling Season in this case.
Kogarashi says... Accepted answer #1
Let's see if I understand your idea correctly.
You have Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons, Grim Poppet, and Blowfly Infestation out. First to note is that just casting the Poppet will get you three triggers from Hapatra, as entering with three counters qualifies as those three counters being placed.
Remove a counter from Grim Poppet and place it on an available creature (it can't be the Poppet itself, but if you cast Poppet after Hapatra, it could be one of her snakes instead of Hapatra or an enemy creature). Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons triggers. Assuming you put the counter on one of the snakes, it will die due to state-based actions before Hapatra's trigger can resolve.
The snake's death triggers Blowfly Infestation. This trigger goes on the stack above Hapatra's snake-creating trigger and will thus resolve first. You still have two snakes from casting Grim Poppet, so when the Infestation trigger resolves, you can place a counter on one of your other snakes, triggering Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons again. the second snake will die due to state-based actions while Hapatra's snake-creating triggers are still on the stack, triggering the Infestation again, which will resolve first. You're now down to one snake, and two Hapatra triggers on the stack with the Infestation trigger above them.
So you're going to end up going through creatures until you run out of 1/1's to kill off with the -1/-1 counters, generating Hapatra triggers in a pile that will all resolve once everything else stops pre-empting them. Adding Nest of Scarabs and Flourishing Defenses to the mix will give you more sources for 1/1 tokens, which will pile up with the Hapatra triggers, but not allow you to create an infinite engine.
Alternately, you could use the Blowfly Infestation to put counters back on the Grim Poppet, allowing the token-generating triggers to resolve, before activating the Poppet again to start things over. Not an infinite combo, but an infinitely repeatable one at that point.
As a note for your other cards listed, Ogre Slumlord won't create 1/1 rat tokens if you're killing snake, insect, or elf tokens with this system, since it cares about non-token creatures dying. Also Doubling Season is a good choice, but will kill the Grim Poppet before you can use it due to doubling the number of -1/-1 counters the Poppet will enter the battlefield with (and state-based actions moving it to the graveyard before you have a chance to remove counters from it). However it will trigger Hapatra six times instead of three, and will still work to trigger Blowfly Infestation.
September 5, 2018 1:03 a.m.