Is TappedOut dying?
TappedOut forum
Posted on Nov. 19, 2020, noon by Inkmoth
Lately, I have noticed a trend in two of the most popular Discords refusing to take TappedOut lists/primers over Moxfield's. The cEDH DDB made an announcement to use anything BUT Tappedout and it seems like PlayEDH is following in suit, so my questions are:
- Anybody know why?
- Are the handlers of TappedOut aware of this?
- Is there anything in motion to swing the tide back our way?
yeaGO: Their arguments are that T/O is slow and it crashes a lot. I can make the same arguments for Moxfield tbh, but that's neither here or there. Point is, these discords are not amenable to this change and are quite adamant about people sending lists via Moxfield or anything else for that matter, so long as it is not TappedOut.
These two discords have huge communities and this move could become the start to a trend and that would not bode well for our beloved site.
November 19, 2020 12:21 p.m.
ah, yeah. we have come under waves of bot attacks as of late, but I tripled the servers recently. Any site that has a lot of content will naturally attract these types of bot attention. Its too bad, maybe someone can talk to them and convince them to not be so hard-headed. A site with less traffic or no traffic will obviously be very fast indeed....
fwiw the site seems pretty snappy to me today
November 19, 2020 12:25 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #5
I heard it had to do with a data breach that happened a long time ago - though that was off a facebook page and not directly from a higher up. It's a tad disheartening that they would want to make a switch seeing as a lot of the popular lists that are currently on the database became popularized on this platform. I've learned a lot from all the content and primers on here which is why I've stuck around. I use to just be a Lurker :)
November 19, 2020 12:31 p.m.
i don't know anything about a data breach... there were some malicious/popup ads a while but we took a lot of steps to make sure that doesn't happen again and i haven't really had any complaints in a long time
November 19, 2020 12:33 p.m.
That's very unfortunate and while crashes here and there are irritating, I have found T/O to be more consistent than Moxfield. Another complaint that I can glean off of reading posts is the use of graphics and ads. These discords have some of the most influential communities and if the rest all start following along, T/O's future is looking bleak. Below I included the TappedOut announcements made in both Discords by their moderators.
cEDH DDB Discord:
Cinestra 11/08/2020 Hello everyone, we will no longer support tappedout lists on the database in the next update.
If your list is currently on tappedout and on the database-- we suggest switching to another service such as moxfield. Please make sure to ping us in #request-update with the new link to your decklist once you are able to change services.
PlayEDH Discord:
Dethmoose 8/24/2020
How do I get my deck checked? Post it in the #deck_checks channel during the weekend when it's open for submissions, Friday 1 PM UTC to Monday 1 PM UTC. The mentors will check your deck during the weekdays and give you a rating. Make sure your list is on Moxfield, Archidekt or Scryfall. Only submit one deck at a time
November 19, 2020 12:35 p.m.
From what I remember, I think one of the reasons was that reportedly a moderator of Tappedout said something along the lines that "cEDH isn't a real format and therefore doesn't deserve attention".
Obviously, I don't know if this is true, or who said it, or what they exactly said, BUT, regardless, to fix the issue,
I would think a smart move would be for a moderator from this site to just come out and say, "Hey, we don't really think that, we're sorry that happened, etc."
Or, just generally try asking them what the problem is and fixing it.
November 19, 2020 12:38 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #9
Well, I guess it's good that I don't play cEDH or use Discord.
There still seems to be plenty of activity on the site, so I wouldn't use the term "dying."
November 19, 2020 12:41 p.m.
I can't imagine it comes down to some he-said / she-said stuff. If people really don't care to be told what site to use without any feedback I am not sure what to say. I have tried my best to support theirs (and all mtg...) communities, and nobody on our side would have ever disparaged them.
ironically, this all comes just as the competitive feedback meter is returning to make everyone really mad again.
November 19, 2020 12:47 p.m.
Reznorboy: "just generally try asking them what the problem is and fixing it." I second this motion and I would love it if the moderators themselves reached out in general to address the problems themselves (whatever they may be).
RiotRunner789: Please don't take offense to this, but that's just ostrich head-in-the-sand logic. PlayEDH is one of the biggest, if not THEE biggest community for webcam EDH games and to play on there your decklist needs to be checked by a moderator before you can start playing in your desired power level.
If this becomes a trend and it very much looks like it is in my hemisphere, T/O is gonna be the next Myspace.
November 19, 2020 12:52 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #12
I doubt that will happen. You're making the assumption that the vast majority of tapped out users are playing or needing to play webcam EDH through this service which I do not believe is factual.
And while webcam EDH is a thing now, in 6 months time it will be "dying" or start shedding users by droves. This will make the dependence of these sites less relevant.
Though, I do agree with you that those sites allowing TO can only be positive and them rejecting TO can be frustrating at best.
November 19, 2020 1:05 p.m.
i have reached out to a database manager of theirs, maybe they will get back to me.
but i do really think its on impacted people to speak up, as i haven't really seen any reasons given so far about their decision
November 19, 2020 1:09 p.m.
RiotRunner789: That's coming from the perspective on of someone who doesn't play webcam or cEDH, which are burgeoning communities.
I also believe you're underestimating the popularization of webcam games, especially during these days. At the moment it is frustrating, but it's looking like a trend as people seem to prefer the "cleaner look" of Moxfield.
6 months from now their userbase is going to increase.
November 19, 2020 1:13 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #15
I use T/O for negative of the reasons listed above, and I don't think I'm alone in that
November 19, 2020 1:14 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life: that's not to say influential communities can't establish trends. Especially if they're being gated from using TappedOut.
November 19, 2020 1:16 p.m.
well as for the broader trend I will say that aside from hosting decklists, a lot of those folks moved on a long time ago for the simple fact that they participate in web forums less than they do discord. If you're worried about them moving on you're years late in that sense.
November 19, 2020 1:18 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #18
Inkmoth Of course they can, and that's not to say that influential trends don't establish communities. Trends such as webcam Magic. But if the trend is truly as "trendy" as it seems to be, it will probably fizzle out after, idk, 5, 6, maybe 7 months
November 19, 2020 1:20 p.m.
Well, these stipulations have been recently mandated. So, they're relatively new and arbitrary from what I can tell.
November 19, 2020 1:21 p.m. Edited.
FormOverFunction says... #20
I feel a little simple for being this way, but I’ve really enjoyed sharing my goofball decks with far more strangers that I am able to in person, and then the general sharing of my love for this game with like minds is just gravy on top. shrug I don’t intend to go anywhere else, honestly. I like it here.
November 19, 2020 3:28 p.m.
FormOverFunction: As do I, so you can imagine how it feels to be a part of these prominent communities and see them bar people from using Tappedout to post their lists and making them transition to another website.
November 19, 2020 3:33 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #22
Well, there are more formats than just commander. The only people I see this truly effecting will be the ones who have well thought out and extensively written primers that were garnering more views by being on the database. Granted, shifting data over to another website is just a couple of clicks but to some with thousands and in some cases hundreds of thousands of views on their list its probably very frustrating to have to start over on a new platform.
November 19, 2020 4:28 p.m.
VampDemigod2-0 says... #23
I will say, I really hope that there’s some way to bring these sites back to TappedOut. TappedOut is a really useful site, and I enjoy the community. This is an amazing resource, and even if TappedOut is dying, I’m going to stick with it till we both hit the bottom.
This is wishful thinking, but maybe if we can work out what’s making my old account have these issues, maybe that’ll give TappedOut the info needed to deal with that slowness complaint. (We’ve found that it’s unrelated to the cyberattacks so far)
November 19, 2020 6:25 p.m.
Just to give some old-timer perspective here, I spent a long time observing who uses TappedOut and why (partly because I used to help yeago out with community things). There have been countless new deckbuilding websites built to look sleeker and have cool features to compete with TappedOut, and it's been interesting to see the various ways in which they've been successful and ways they haven't. I was primarily interested in why these spaces, despite possibly being "better" places to store or analyze a decklist, weren't immediately taking all of our users.
It's really just as simple as community. If your community is built around Discord, what deckbuilding site gets used is mercurial, because the real point is to have a functional list that can be shared elsewhere. That's why sites like Moxfield emphasize stat visuals and absolutely nothing else; it's just a repository for your information. You need Discord to be able to brew, find cool decks that stand out, share information, etc. (I'm not saying that's not possible on Moxfield, but it's not a big part of the UX.)
TappedOut, for all its quirks, is really a brewing community that happens to need a decklist feature to function. Deckcycling, featured decks, the fact that primers are displayed on the same page as the decklist, things like Deck Space and the competitive meter: it's all meant to foster discussion! And where Discord can feel intimidating and chaotic to a new user - I don't even like using our own Discord - TappedOut makes it super easy to ask questions, source inspiration, and advertise your cool new idea.
I've never found another website like it, and I don't think any of you have, either, which is why you're here! TappedOut has had a core userbase for years and years - and not just the same old-timey users like me, but just a consistent rotating core of folks who come in and use the site for as long as they're obsessed with MTG. That's because TappedOut appeals to a type of person, and as long as that type of person still plays Magic, they'll like TappedOut.
All that to say I'm not all that worried. Even though it's something to be addressed, and I totally feel why Inkmoth doesn't want to just give up on the cEDH community being a part of TappedOut, I don't think it's a sign of the site community going anywhere.
JUST THE RAMBLIN'S OF AN OLD LADY SO TAKE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT
November 19, 2020 7:25 p.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #25
Division in a community are never a good thing. There are so many ways to approach this game it's enough to overload your average nerd. Hopfully, we're able to get a conclusive answer as to why tappedout is being excluded as a deck list sharing platform on these popular servers and ammend whatever the issue is. I'd be super pissed if a discord wouldn't let me use Inkmoth Yeva list in a comp/high power game just because it's on tappedout
November 19, 2020 7:45 p.m.
I was watching an EDHREC live stream on Twitch recently. One of the people who codes for them and writes articles was in chat and said they don't take TappedOut decks into their database because of some formatting and/or coding stuff. Joey, one of the heads, said that he loves Archidekt because they were responsive to his queries and tech-compatibility stuff and he said that in the past he he reached out to "some of the other sites" and they were dismissive or outright rude about helping them.
Might be another avenue to get more into the community sphere.
November 19, 2020 8:03 p.m.
I think that any site, including T/O, wants to appeal to people and gain new members as well as keep the veterans. So it's definitely something to look into to at least understand the reasons and see whether it can be addressed or fixed.
I have a kind of un-related, related question.
How do people play via webcam and prevent cheating? I am curious because I havent tried it out but I get invited sometimes and wondered how gameplay is monitored.
November 19, 2020 8:41 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #28
This site sure as hell shouldn't be dying. I've spent far too much time finding and photoshopping images of promos for it to die on me now.
In all seriousness, T/O isn't dying and won't die out anytime soon. Note that the average userbase of tappedout are teens, people roughly around age 16. They find tappedout through googling (you have any idea how many hits tappedout gets over any other deckbuilder on google for just googling a random archetype? It's a lot, provided it was not once competitive otherwise you'd get inundiated with articles.) They play kitchen table magic and occasionally go to fnm with their fangly brews. They don't participate in the youtube or discords or streams. Basically, tappedout's userbase is almost synonymous with the target demographic that WotC, in pre-2020 times, have predominately directed product towards.
In terms of other communities, other formats use tappedout exclusively for deck presentation, like Canadian Highlander. Streamers like LoadingReadyRun use tappedout as a way to present the decks everyone is using to the players.
Hell if we really want to be competitive in terms of our analysis (which anyone can do with trafficchecker and alexa) ... tappedout regularly swaps places with scryfall and edhrec for spots number 3-5 of top mtg sites in terms of traffic. Tcgplayer being number 1 and mtggoldfish being number 2, though that race is a close one.
Interestingly, tappedout, scryfall and mtggoldfish are all heading down on the past four months, with edhrec, tcgplayer and all the alternative deck sites heading up rapidly. Maybe it's having an impact? Hard to say.
November 19, 2020 10:19 p.m. Edited.
Femme_Fatale: This is very comforting since T/O is by far my favorite deckbuilding site.
I guess my worries stem from these sizable and burgeoning MTG communities (EDH discords) legitimately barring submissions from the site. Given their size, I fear that hemisphere of the MTG community will eventually shift over.
I genuinely appreciate any efforts made to keep a bridge between these communities and I'm glad this site is thriving, keep it up, please! TappedOut is <3
November 20, 2020 9:05 a.m.
Antihero420 says... #30
I think you may be worried over nothing my guy. Who TF cares if some random discords wanna hate on tappedout?? I’m 35 years old and have used Tappedout for nearly a decade now (I’ve had multiple accounts under a couple of different usernames previously), and despite trying other sites like archidekt, mtggoldfish, etc., nothing compares the features and UI of this site. So forget about some petty discord bros tryna hate on the best mtg deckbuilding site, they have legit no influence over the traffic on this site lmao. To quote the great Dave Skylark: They hate us cause they ain’t us.
November 20, 2020 10:58 a.m.
Antihero420: I understand your sentiment entirely and I am no longer worried about TappedOut as a whole.
However, I can't help but lament the fact that these communities I am very much a part of, bar people from using this site for their decklists. They're very sizeable communities and one of the few ways to play EDH over webcam. I believe losing this demographic is a bit tragic, especially if it could be mitigated by appealing to the moderators. Or at the very least having an open discussion about it.
November 20, 2020 11:09 a.m.
Antihero420 says... #32
MagicMarc in regards to your random question, what do you mean by cheat? Are you referring to the fact that there is no rules automation, or are you worried about people stacking decks, etc. (Cheating out cards from deck somehow b/c it is off camera)? Idk anything about playing mtg over webcam, but my friends and I have used which is similar in that there is no rules automation, but we see those issues the same as when playing IRL: you gotta know the rules enough to play and then look up rulings when issues arise. If you’re playing with randoms, there legit isn’t really a way to stop cheaters, so maybe don’t play webcam mtg with randoms? If you’re worried about your friends cheating during webcam mtg...maybe get non-scummy friends?
November 20, 2020 11:18 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #33
As a long term MTG player and TO user, here's my 2ct:
Playing MTG over webcam is a fashion, not a trend, imho.
Some ppl will stick to it, most ppl will abandon it because it requires work to set up. Much easier to play digitally on MTGO or Arena or play with friends in person. Covid forced us to explore that path, but a vaccine is in sight and for most ppl it won't be worth the additional hassle after covid restrictions are gone. Just my take, could be wrong ofc.
November 20, 2020 11:19 a.m. Edited.
MagicMarc: Shuffling is done on camera, camera should be angled to see your hands, disconnected for a minute you have to shuffle hand into deck and draw 0 upon reconnecting, and no part of your play area should be out of the shot.
I haven't seen cheating be a huge deal, tbh.
November 20, 2020 11:22 a.m.
Thank you for replying, Antihero420.
I mostly meant playing with strangers. And particularly issues like the one you mentioned about library manipulation or draw manipulation. You see it happen at competitive, in-person events so I just assumed Webcam Magic would be even worse.
I do play with my friends on Zoom. And that gameplay is fine. I meant mostly engaging strangers via Discord or whatever.
November 20, 2020 11:25 a.m.
sergiodelrio: Spelltables inception and applications like Droidcam have really streamlined the process. Discord servers like PlayEDH are very well organized with a community of over 1k people and growing. They use bots to simulate a matchmaking system and the moderators are always readily available to pop into your room for any disputes. It's super easy to pop in during the week and get a game, as I am writing this there's currently 15 pods fired up.
I used to share your same mindset and thought the inconvenience wasn't worth it, but it was so easy to get started, it's become my favorite way of getting games in without having my pod gather during the week.
November 20, 2020 11:29 a.m.
Inkmoth; thank you for that information as well.
Another question, then.
Is there a more casual commander discord group? For when I want to test decks or play goofy Jank? Or is it really only popular for competitive play?
November 20, 2020 11:32 a.m.
MagicMarc: PlayEDH requires that you submit the deck you wish to play (can't use TappedOut), and they will rate your power level. Once rated you can give yourself the role for the power level you wish to be playing in and the corresponding channel to lfg (look for game) will pop up. You input the !lfg command and the bot will find a game for you. The generates a link to Spelltable, make sure your camera isn't being used for any other programs and you're good to go. The bot will tell you what voice chat to join where you'll meet your three opponents.
November 20, 2020 11:36 a.m. Edited.
sergiodelrio says... #39
If this is still the case in March, I'll agree with you Inkmoth. Pucatrade seemed to be a good idea to a lot of people at a point in time as well.
Most people will choose the path of least resistance and I don't think that's it. Again, just my personal take. Might be wrong.
Objectively, 1k players is nothing.
November 20, 2020 11:39 a.m.
Antihero420 says... #40
Somehow I messed up my comment to you MagicMarc because I mentioned that my friends and I play on untap.in and somehow it didn’t show in my comments. I think untap.in is FAR superior to webcam mtg.
November 20, 2020 11:43 a.m.
Antihero420 says... #41
sergiodelrio lmao I forgot about pucatrade!! About 10 years ago I used puca to get rid of my bulkrares and whatnot, lmao thank you for the nostalgia and the laughs.
November 20, 2020 11:46 a.m.
Antihero420 With the exception of being a program you have to install and run, Cockatrice is astronomically better than Untap.in. Cockatrice has so many discords and communities while being way less clunkier than Untap's browser-based UI IMO.
Though, if there are some Untap.in discord communities you know of, I please post. I like seeing options! :D
November 20, 2020 11:47 a.m.
Antihero420 says... #43
back around 2010 when I was getting more connected with the mtg community, I was told cockatrice was great but I had too many issues getting it up and running on my Mac back then to stick with it. Because of that, what I found and used back then was Xmage.de, which I loved because of the rules automation, the ability to draft and play right there, and I could upload my cube and draft with randoms. I fell away from mtg for years, only getting back into mtg because my brother started playing EDH at the start of 2020, and bugged me a bunch for advice even though I hadn’t played in years. Talking about it for months got me interested in playing mtg (well, EDH at least) again, so when we were looking into trying webcam mtg so we could play (he lives halfway across the country from me), we found and settled on untap.in, which I prefer to other options mainly because I can play on my phone, and jump between phone and computer rather seamlessly. My playgroup thinks I’m crazy but I prefer to play Untap on my phone over my laptop because it runs smoother for me and I have the touchscreen functionality I enjoy over point click and drag with a touchpad mouse. I’ll usually upload decks and or get games started on computer, then jump over to my phone once in game.
November 20, 2020 12:20 p.m.
Antihero420 says... #44
As for untap.in discord communities, idk any, as we don’t ever play with randoms. We have about 10 people in our EDH playgroup and we have our own personal discord for that. We just post something like “anyone down for EDH tonight?” And once 3-5 people have confirmed they set a time and play using that discord to chat during the game.
November 20, 2020 12:24 p.m.
Antihero420 says... #45
Inkmoth Idk, just a thought here, but if you wanna have your cake and eat it too, you can always just make an account on whatever arbitrary deckbuilder site they accept, then just continue to deckbuild and post and interact here, only uploading a deck to that site when you’re tryna get it checked for those discords.
November 20, 2020 12:36 p.m.
Antihero420: This doesn't affect me as someone who's been spreading my decklist like wildfire. I already have my list on almost every site imaginable. They (DDB) do expect a primer on the lists, which is a huge annoyance to those who have to port their whole primers to Moxfield (I begrudgingly went through it).
On a side note: Moxfield allows you to edit side-by-side, and boy would I love that... is that possible yeaGO?
November 20, 2020 12:49 p.m.
anything is possible... but what do you mean side by side... you just mean as you are viewing the deck?
November 20, 2020 12:52 p.m.
yeaGO: You can live edit the primer so you can see the aesthetics change while editing. No having to save edits just to see changes.
November 20, 2020 12:57 p.m. Edited.
Femme_Fatale says... #49
Antihero420, Inkmoth: untap.in uses facebook for communication. I used to do work for them like, 5 years ago.
November 20, 2020 4:01 p.m.
yeaGO: Just to recap, since the last post on this thread was 3 days ago. Are we getting a similar editing feature? :D
Also, how did reaching out to the Discord moderators go?
yeaGO says... #2
hmm... maybe ask them, i have no idea why they would decide that
November 19, 2020 12:16 p.m.