Guttersnipe vs. Chandra's Phoenix
Standard forum
Posted on June 24, 2014, 4:23 p.m. by DX5
I need to rid one of them from my deck. I have an aggro/burn type thing going on. I'm looking to lower my mana curve. Just wondering which you think is more useful to an aggro/burn deck. Guttersnipe enhances all my instants/sorceries to add 2 damage and Phoenix has flying and haste as well as it returns to my hand when I play spells. Which do you think is more useful?
MindAblaze says... #3
It depends on what your meta game looks like.
Both are vulnerable to most of the same removal; Guttersnipe can't attack the same turn you play him and if you drop him turn 3 doesn't do anything until the next turn at the earliest. Chandra's Phoenix flies over ground weenies but runs into big flying guys like Blood Baron of Vizkopa and Stormbreath Dragon . It comes down earlier than them though, has haste and is potentially recurrable. Something to sac to Desecration Demon with little downside...
June 24, 2014 4:29 p.m.
The thing about Guttersnipe
is that he's a removal magnet for most players. I like him and prefer him to the Chandra's Phoenix
, but he very rarely sticks.
Plus, if you're running aggro, it might be a good idea to play the Phoenix because of the returning and all. In a straight up burn, both would be a good choice, but if you're playing more aggro than burn, I'd go with the Phoenix. If it's more burn than aggro, then the Guttersnipe is preferable to me (though I'm always down to use both!).
June 24, 2014 4:31 p.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #5
Or instead of saccing it to the Demon you can just block, lol.
In any case Chandra's Phoenix is way better than Guttersnipe in most situations. But if you are running a lot of bounce/counter spells then Guttersnipe may be better. the Phoenix's recursion is also a very valuable asset to take into account.
June 24, 2014 4:33 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #6
Blocking is overrated...lol.
This is kind of a Deck Help question though, since it seems to come down to what they're supported by.
I personally love Guttersnipe , despite the awesome Steve Argyle art on the Promo Chandra's Phoenix. I'm a dirty Johnny though...
June 24, 2014 4:35 p.m.
TheHorse Attempting to get to the declare blocker step can be blown out by a removal spell however, something decks that like to run Desecration Demon are full of. Granted they could have just done it before the ability triggers, but if the situation presents itself and if you really need Desecration Demon to not hit you that turn it's much safer to sac to the ability.
OP: Chandra's Phoenix is the much superior creature, it's not even close in my opinion. It asks way less of you than the Guttersnipe . Everything else aside, for Guttersnipe to even start being better than 2 evasive haste power you'd need a game and boardstate where you're casting multiple spells per turn and/or your 2/2 for 3 is getting to attack each turn. That's quite the set of hoops to jump through.
For Chandra's Phoenix to be worse would have to mean that your opponent has a large flyer or reach blocker that they'd rather be defending with and a way to otherwise put pressure on you. Add on Chandra's Phoenix card advantage ability of returning to hand and I just don't think it's close.
Only way I think you ever consider running Guttersnipe is if you had a way to truly combo kill with it and I don't think one exist in standard currently.
June 24, 2014 7:03 p.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #10
If you absolutely need to make sure you're not going to die to the Desecration Demon that turn, then go ahead and sac it (I still wouldn't, see following sentence). But if your opponent isn't a complete moron they would kill the Phoenix in that situation beforehand. So I guess if you're playing around your opponent trying to be cute that's fine, but otherwise it doesn't make much sense (in most cases).
June 24, 2014 7:09 p.m.
Alright I'm pretty sure I'll take out Guttersnipe then. Thanks for all the help.
June 24, 2014 7:51 p.m.
Chandra's Phoenix is infinitely better. The fact that it can come out and attack right away is something Guttersnipe can't do (try casting another spell on turn-3). Also, Chandra's Phoenix fits better into a burn deck than almost any other creature ever printed.
June 24, 2014 7:55 p.m.
The problem with Chandra's Phoenix is that it is 3 cost, which I want to try and phase out of my deck. That's the whole purpose of dropping a Guttersnipe/Phoenix.
June 24, 2014 8:07 p.m.
But it's worth 3 mana, especially for such a low-cmc aggressive deck.
It's almost like a finisher.
June 24, 2014 8:12 p.m.
Well this is going to sound pretty stupid on my part, but my deck is actually modern. I posted the thread in the standard forum because the cards are standard legal, so I figured this was the right place for it. I forgot that people would take into account which format I was playing in. So 3 mana is kinda a lot with the options that you would have in modern vs. standard. I'm a noob to Magic and this site so please excuse this XD
June 24, 2014 8:22 p.m.
Well, yeah. In Modern, it's a different story.
Just play Grim Lavamancer and Goblin Guide , then a ton of burn spells.
Sulfuric Vortex is fun in the sideboard, but that's as expensive as I'd get.
June 24, 2014 8:26 p.m.
It's not actually bad in a burn deck. I think Goblin Guide is stronger, though you'd have to pony up the dough for them.
I suppose Grim Lavamancer isn't that great in Modern as it can be in Legacy. Try, instead, Hellspark Elemental . It's a potential 6 damage.
June 24, 2014 8:36 p.m.
Well I have already ordered 2 Goblin Guides, so hopefully I can get more cash for them in the future. Grim is pretty good in Modern, but he's not a 4 of because you probably wouldn't have enough cards in the graveyard for 4 of them to be useful. Hellspark would be especially good in my deck since I run Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded .
June 24, 2014 8:39 p.m.
A 2 drop that lets me draw free cards and take control of every monster? What more could I want???
June 24, 2014 9:03 p.m.
No. Tibalt is not good. Though, you're a self-proclaimed noob so I'll let it slide.
Tibalt draws randomly. Technically speaking, you get a random card off the top. What's the point of drawing randomly to discard randomly? Unless you randomly hit a Hellspark Elemental (which you should've already just cast), you aren't netting any value and you risk screwing yourself out a spell you wanted as you drew a land off the top.
That, and what else do you plan on doing with Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded ? Even if he gets to 4, you sacrifice him to hit your opponent for, like, 3 or 4 damage. Congratulations; you played a 2-mana Lightning Bolt that had to sit around and mess up your hand for 3 turns before resolving.
His -7 will never go off or, if it does, probably wouldn't do anything.
The biggest reason why Tibalt's bad, though, is the random draw into random discard. Unless you hit your graveyard stuff, you're risking too much when there's technically no reward.
June 24, 2014 9:08 p.m.
fluffybunnypants could probably find some decent material here around #20.
June 24, 2014 9:08 p.m.
I'm currently working on a deck that makes Tibalt even more overpowered than normal. Basically, it's a carbon copy of his duel deck just with better cards. If you have stuff like Recoup and Scourge Devil you'll have a pretty solid deck. Adding cards with flashback or unearth will suddenly make the deck even more playable.
June 24, 2014 9:18 p.m.
"...makes Tibalt even more overpowered than normal. "
This is the first time these words have ever been combined in this order.
June 24, 2014 9:24 p.m.
I think a lot of the hate Tibalt has is from people who haven't used him, and they just jumped on the bandwagon. When people bring up situations where Tibalt is bad, they seem to always be very specific situations. Like on my other thread you were on, people were talking about him being easily susceptible to Lightning Bolt and any three power creature my opponent may have on turn 3. That assumes that my opponent runs bolt or has a 3 power monster by turn 3 and I have no blockers for that monster. I'm sure there's very specific situations where Jace, the Mind Sculptor is bad. He seems like he'd die to Dreadbore a lot. I'm also pretty sure you could have an instant win combo with tibalt and Jace, Memory Adept . I don't know. I just don't think Tibalt gets credit. If you're worried about his +1 randomly discarding one of your good cards in your hand, play it before you activate his +1. If you don't have anything you absolutely need to keep, you might as well gamble on it. Those are just my thoughts, but I've barely been playing 3 months if even.
June 24, 2014 9:34 p.m.
JtMS doesn't die to Dreadbore because no one plays it in Legacy and you have countermagic up the wazoo anyways.
How can you "instantly win" with Memory Adept and Tibalt? If you're referring to making your opponent draw 20 cards and then pulling a -4, that's really too cute to ever work. Memory Adept never does anything aside from his 0 because you'd just win the game in 4 turns with it.
Being able to deal 3 damage to a Planeswalker isn't a "specific situation", either.
Tibalt sucks because he screws up your hand, doesn't generate any real value, and has little effect on the board even after being out for several turns. He can't even protect himself.
I tried to figure out Tibalt; a lot of people did when we had Standard Flashback spells. But he just screws up your hand with randomness far more often than not.
Tibalt is so bad, many consider him to be a massive failure on the part of R&D.
Trust me; you'd be better off just using another burn spell in his spot.
June 24, 2014 10:45 p.m.
Nigeltastic says... #31
So one of the big issues with Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded is that he does not actually gain you anything. You get 1 rip off the top of your deck, and then the chance that you get rid of that card anyway. Statistically speaking, Tibalt's +1 is going to draw you a land (due to the fact that literally every deck other than Goblin Charbelcher lists runs more than 4 lands), and because of that you're trading most likely a land for a card that is in your hand, that you probably don't want to get rid of. If on turn 2 when Tibalt comes down you don't have anything you care about in your hand more than a probable land, you should have mulliganed.
Tibalt also fails the "Planeswalker Test", which is a rough list of things that a planeswalker should have to be good. I do not remember where I read it off the top of my head, but it made sense, so here goes: 1) A planeswalker should be able to protect itself in some way. This can be giving -1/0, dealing damage, making beasts, destroying creatures who attack it, destroying permanents, or at the barest minimum, gaining enough loyalty that it won't die to burn or weak creatures immediately. Tibalt can only +1 from 2 to 3 loyalty, dying to essentially all burn ever, and in no way does it protect him. 2) A planeswalker should generate some game advantage. This is often drawing cards, but can be dealing damage consistently, making creature(s), or messing with your opponent's library. Tibalt nets 0 cards each time he draws, and can very easily lose what little advantage he gained you quickly. His -4 is priced to kill him 2 turns after he was played, and honestly Toil / Trouble is better at what he does than he is. 3) A planeswalker's ultimate should end the game or make it damn close. Fair, Insurrection does win games, Tibalt passes the 3rd test, but he also needs 4 turns after he is played to do so, which is a discount, but is somewhat difficult due to his lack of protecting himself, and Red's natural inability to counter spells usually.
Hopefully this helps you understand a little more why people say Tibalt is bad, because he really is not very good, especially compared to some of the all-stars that came out of Innistrad block overall (see Liliana of the Veil ).
June 24, 2014 10:49 p.m.
In fact, all the other Planeswalkers in the Innistrad block were tier-1 playable: Garruk Relentless Flip , Sorin, Lord of Innistrad , Liliana of the Veil , and Tamiyo, the Moon Sage .
June 25, 2014 12:07 a.m.
I'm not playing in legacy, so I don't guess Tibalt would be dying in legacy either. There's plenty of reason to use Jace's +1 especially when you're setting up for this combo. You certainly would not be using his 0 ability when you're trying to set this up. That wouldn't make very much sense.
Also dealing 3 damage is very specific. I'm pretty sure that the only color that can deal direct damage to a Planeswalker is Red. Black can Dismember and Doom Blade and Bump in the Night but those don't affect planeswalkers. The only other way is by attack it and that assumes that I have no blockers for what you're attacking with which is very specific assuming you have something with enough power to kill it anyway.
He only screws up your hand if you have something you really need to play. I wouldn't be using his +1 if I have a card I really need in my hand. I'd play it first before I did that.
I can see that land is the most probable draw for me, but still if I had a good card in my hand that needs to be saved, I wouldn't risk it getting randomly tossed.
As for your planeswalker test:1) I can see how he can't protect himself since he doesn't deal damage until after being +1'd twice, but that still would have to assume that you are playing an opponent with burn. Idk how many people run Red. I heard it was the worst color.
2) I would say that having the chance to get a new card in your hand is a pretty good thing. If you're using his +1 you should already know that you are willing to chance it. Statistically speaking, you are more likely to discard something other than the card you drew if you had more than 1 card in your hand to begin with. So I may be more likely to draw a land, but I'd also be more likely to keep that land as well.
3) He ends the game.
4) The fourth part of the test was that a planeswalker should be a four drop or lower. He explained that was a rule that didn't totally hold its merit as it was based on the first 5 walkers. Jace Beleren Garruk Wildspeaker and Ajani Goldmane were good, and Liliana Vess and Chandra Nalaar suck. The article is on SCG it's called Ranking all 41 Planeswalkers. Or at least that's where I saw the test you're talking about.
Other than Liliana's -2, she doesn't seem all that impressive. Her +1 is just as bad as Tibalt's other than it also forcing your opponent to discard, but you don't get the advantage of possibly obtaining a new card.
Tibalt is definitely better than Tamiyo. If the planeswalker test is to be believed it fails 3 out of 4. I would definitely say Sorin is better than Tibalt and Garruk too. Liliana idk. I'm pretty sure Tibalt is better than her.
June 25, 2014 12:49 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #34
June 25, 2014 7:17 a.m.
"Liliana idk. I'm pretty sure Tibalt is better than her."
I...I don't know what to say. I feel like curling up in the fetal position and waiting for this whole thing to blow over. shudder shudder
June 25, 2014 7:31 a.m.
The thing that makes Tibalt really bad is the wording on his +1. Draw a card then discard a card at random.
If you could choose what you discarded, he wouldn't be bad. He at least wouldn't be getting all the hate that he currently gets. This is a strategy game, a card that takes away your control like that by making you discard from your own hand at random is not good for strategy. It's terrible for it, actually. You could accidentally toss a combo piece, a land you needed, a win-condition, etc. In order to play him safely you have to have nothing in your hand that you aren't ok with just chucking, and no deck should be ok with just throwing anything in their hand away. Even dredge decks and madness decks have some cards that they need to keep in hand to save for the right time. Even in red deck wins, where most of the cards are of equal (or at least similar) value, you could draw a land and toss out a Lightning Bolt . That's bad.
As for the memory adept/tibalt combo... I understand what you're saying, but you would kill them faster by just using Jace's 0 ability. No one in constructed play uses decks over 60 cards, and most decks are fetching and/or tutoring, which lowers their deck count even faster. 4 activations of his 0 would end the game in modern. Although he's way too slow of a win-con to use in modern.
Also, a lot of people actually run at least a splash of red. Splinter Twin is a deck in and of itself, and just the basic good ol' Lightning Bolt is good enough removal or damage for a lot of decks to splash for (along with a couple other cards).
In standard, you can sometimes get away with planeswalker shenanigans (I do it a lot myself) but in older formats, there is a lot more damage going around a lot earlier. Only a couple of planeswalkers are viable in modern, and they are the ones that can protect themselves and have an impact on the board the turn they are played. Liliana of the Veil makes the opponent sac. Karn Liberated exiles things (he's expensive, but the colorless cancels that out, 'cuz tron), and I don't think I ever really see any other walkers in modern. Jace, the Mindsculptor sees play in legacy because he can bounce a creature right away or set up your draws (and there are a crapton of good counters to protect him). Occasionally you'll see Tezzeret the Seeker used for his tutor in some combo decks.
All of those walkers can either hinder your opponents board-state or bolster your own the same turn that they are played. Tibalt can not do either of those things the turn he is played, and see my above reasoning for why his +1 is bad.
June 25, 2014 8:04 a.m.
The good news about his random is that I don't have any combo-wins or win-condition cards. Like you said, In RDW/Burn decks everything is worth about the same. There are cards like Lightning Bolt Lava Spike Vexing Devil and Goblin Guide which are the four cards I would be upset to lose to Tibalt's random discard. If I had them opening hand though, they would be played before I ever played Tibalt because they are the best cards in my deck. I certainly wouldn't risk losing them. They're too good.
I also don't see how Jace's 0 ability would end the game quicker. It'd only take 3 turns of +1 to get him to seven and you estimated 4 using his 0 ability.
I play a lot of my friends at school with their Modern decks and only one has Red in it and he has no burn spells. It's a boros ally deck and it's really good, but burn. No one else has Red.
Karn is really good if you can get him out of course.
Tezzeret looks worse than Tibalt. You would have to build a deck with strong artifacts around him whereas Tibalt will fit nicely into any RDW.
I don't think Tibalt is the best planeswalker or anything, but I do think he's good. I can see why his +1 would be bad if you needed specific cards in your deck to win. In a RDW every card is good at doing the same thing, so it's not that big of a deal what you lose If you're that worried about losing a specific really good card, you don't have to activate his +1.
June 25, 2014 11 a.m.
Tezzeret is for artifact combo decks, which is mostly a legacy and vintage thing, not modern. Same goes for Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas .Karn can be played turn 3 fairly consistently in modern because of the urza lands.The issue with your jace/tibalt combo is that you need both of them to get thier +1's off for three turns in a row, without being damaged or outright destroyed. If you can manage to do that, you were already going to win anyway, they just let you do it in a silly, roundabout way.
So you're basically saying you only play tibalt after you've already played your good cards, then? I think that's the problem, you need more good cards. You're playing RDW, you need damage not whatever the hell tibalt sits around and does for a few turns. Try replacing him with Rift Bolt , Hellspark Elemental , Keldon Marauders , Grim Lavamancer (4 is a bit too much for RDW in modern to use, but 2 is solid), these are all far better options than tibalt because they put out damage fast, and the whole point of RDW is to put out as much damage as possible as fast as possible. Compared to the rest of the deck, Tibalt is very slow. Honestly I would probably eventually take the Chandra's Phoenix out eventually as well if you can get a hold of all the cards I mentioned above.
"I play a lot of my friends at school with their modern decks" I think this is the biggest problem right here. You're asking for advice here, where we will give you advice based on the overall meta of modern and tournament-level play. It's just what we do.From the sounds of it, you are not seeing tournament level play, it's casual modern, which no one can really give you much advice on. It's casual, there's no meta for us to analyze and you don't need to be as efficient as possible like you do in tournaments.
June 25, 2014 12:04 p.m.
Dude. Stop trying to convince us. A lot of us have been playing Magic for YEARS whereas you keep telling us you're a noob. That right there means you should probably just accept our words as truth over yours. Has a single other user come in and agreed with you in any way? No. How many have come in to calmly analyze exactly what makes Tibalt bad? 8? He's not underrated if you can pinpoint exactly what it is that's bad, which everyone has done.
Go out on a limb and trust us when we tell you that everything you're saying is wrong and Tibalt does actually suck.
/topic
June 25, 2014 12:41 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #40
No /topic... I just finished popping my popcorn.
June 25, 2014 12:51 p.m.
But Tibalt is a very solid Planeswalker. Just because some people agree doesn't make it true. There was a time when people were utterly convinced that the world as flat, or that the sun actually rotated around the Earth. We now know that these are not truths. Either way, Tibalt may be bad in some situations, but no Planeswalker is good in every situation. He may be more limited in abilities compared to something like JMS, but he's still good. I can pinpoint exactly what is good about him, yet that doesn't make any of you believe he is good. Just because I'm new doesn't mean I have no analytical skills. When you build your deck to actually make Tibalt works, he's good.
June 25, 2014 12:52 p.m.
When humans thought the word was flat, that's because the idea spread like wildfire without anybody stopping to analyze the situation. Pythagoras called that shit and the Greeks knew the world was round hundreds and hundreds of years before other people came in and started spewing this horseshit of an idea that the world is flat.
I'm glad you brought this up, because this is a great analogy to how people thought of Tibalt. We figured it out as soon as he was released, and now you're hear, trying to convince everyone the world is flat.
By your logic, if it works in a deck, it's good.
If I build a mono-green deck for the kitchen table with Grizzly Bears in the 2-cmc slot, then it technically works, right? Yeah. This is your Tibalt. But considering Kalonian Tusker is literally better in every way for mono-green, why keep playing the Bears when the Tusker wins every time? Tibalt may work, but there are a thousand better spells.
The fact you compared Liliana of the Veil and even Jace, the Mind Sculptor a bit to Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded means no, you don't know how to analyze cards. Lili is one of the strongest ever printed and Tibalt is down there with Chandra Ablaze and Sarkhan the Mad .
For popcorn's sake, though, let's keep going.
June 25, 2014 1:06 p.m.
Well I don't think everyone has given Tibalt a fair shake. I'm not going to believe something is good just because other people are telling me whether or not it's good. If it works in a deck, then yes it is good at least for that deck. If it works, it certainly doesn't mean it's terrible. You can't call Tibalt useless and terrible if he gives certain decks a very nice advantage. That means that he has his places. Nissa Revane is absolutely terrible if you don't have elves in your deck. She only works with elves. Is she terrible? No, she's good if you build around her with elves.
I also think it's different to compare Grizzly Bears to Kalonian Tusker to how Tibalt mostly because there is no other 2 drop Planeswalker. I don't think there is a 2 drop spell that can give you the type of advantage that Tibalt does at least in mono-red. I still don't see how anyone could think Liliana is good. Other than her -2, her abilities are crap. Not to mention that her -2 only gets rid of the worst creature on your opponent's board. Chandra Ablaze is pretty much an instant win if you can get it out. Sarkhan can also kill your opponent pretty easily if you've got big fat dragons and they've got blockers. He's pretty situational, but he's very good if you set him up just like any other Planeswalker.
June 25, 2014 1:53 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #44
DX5 you missed it completely in the 2nd paragraph. Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded provides no advantage at all. None. Liliana of the Veil 's +1 feeds Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman in a format with fetchlands(Arid Mesa ). I don't play modern but can understand how she's good.
June 25, 2014 2 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #45
Deathrite Shaman was banned because of how overpowered these interactions were, correct modern players?
June 25, 2014 2:04 p.m.
I feel like Tibalt's +1 does the exact same thing except he gives you the opportunity to cycle a new card into your hand where Liliana does not, and Liliana adds an extra card to your opponent's graveyard as well.
Even still her +1 is not any better than Tibalt's overall, and only slightly better in that situation.
June 25, 2014 2:06 p.m.
He's way overpowered and he's a 1/2. Grim Lavamancer is in most Red Burn decks and he's way better than him though they have the 1 similar ability plus the 2 toughness. My friend that introduced me to Magic was telling me about Deathrite Shaman.
June 25, 2014 2:08 p.m.
Rasta_Viking29 says... #48
This helps you bud. Like I said I don't play modern but it's obvious.
June 25, 2014 2:09 p.m.
And having a new card in your hand doesn't help you? Unless you absolutely need a certain combo to win, the random discard doesn't hurt. And if your deck relies on a single combo, I'd probably argue that it is not very good. Sure you could lose the card you just drew, but odds are that you won't. I used to run Burning Inquiry when I didn't have very many good cards and I remember once I discarded every card I drew. Every other time I had at least one.
June 25, 2014 2:13 p.m.
There's a reason Tibalt is the cheapest planeswalker to buy. He's 3 bucks NM/M on Starcity. Duel deck version is a buck. And they overprice things. He never saw play in a top deck in any format, period.
Mono-red walkers have a bad history. Chandra, Pyromaster is probably the only one that's been really effective in standard, and even she doesn't see much play. Koth of the Hammer was ok-ish during standard but sucks in most everything else. One of the biggest problems R&D has had with red walkers is that Red is such a fast deck in general that walkers just don't work very well with the deck, since they are usually expensive and need to be on the board for 2 or 3 turns at least to be worth it. RDW can consistently win in 4 or 5 turns (sometimes 3 depending on the format) without any walkers, so it has no reason to run them. That's part of the reason they made tibalt so cheap.
I've been playing the game for a long time now, and I remember when Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded was first spoiled. There was a ton of excitement, a 2-drop walker? That's just insane. Especially with how powerful Lilly of the veil was at the time, and how powerful Jace Beleren was in standard. He was even expensive on SCG when he was first spoiled.
Then people played with him, realized how horrible the at random clause on his +1 was, and it eventually got to the point where some shops couldn't give him away (seriously, my LGS has 5 just lying around that no one will ever buy). He's been play-tested, people wanted to make him work, they tried hard to find a way to make him good, but he's not. He's just not.
Anywho, I'm done with this conversation now. I answered the original question a long time ago and should probably just quit while I'm ahead :p
Skraz1265 says... #2
It depends a bit on the rest of your deck. If all/most of your instants/sorceries are burn spells, the phoenix will probably be better for you since it can just keep coming back against most decks. It sounds like that's what you're going for.
Guttersnipe is a bit better in a tempo deck like izzet, where you're using some counters, bounce spells, and other utility spells that can protect him while he chips away at your opponent.
June 24, 2014 4:28 p.m.