These cards should be banned
Pioneer forum
Posted on Jan. 6, 2020, 6:55 a.m. by Argy
Make your case for the cards you think need to be banned in the Pioneer format.
I would like to see the new Heliod banned.
-
He will still sell to Standard players.
-
Walking Ballista is a format staple. Removing it will weaken many decks, none of which are OP.
-
This format is not Modern. We don't need to have infinite combos in it.
Grubbernaut says... #3
Tef is good, but definitely not broken in the same way an infinite combo is. I'm skeptical to see just how good Ballista/Heliod will be in reality, but could absolutely see it being a problem.
We'll see, I suppose.
January 6, 2020 10:39 a.m.
Who are you to say that pioneer shouldn't have infinite combos? J.s.
That's some people's preferred play style.
January 6, 2020 12:19 p.m.
New Heliod is fine: 1. He lacks the support in standard for him to be viable, and will probably be a fringe deck there. Likely not selling to standard players in huge numbers.
-
Smuggler's Copter was banned for the exact reason you are using to justify not banning Walking Ballista , and I think it’s a stupid reason for a ban. They should both be playable cards presently.
-
That’s a viable play style. It shouldn’t discount a card from being playable. This one is clunkier than copycat. It’s fine.
As for Teferi, Hero of Dominaria : if you lose to him as a win con, you were already going to lose. It’s a slow, boring win con, but it has so many answers our shouldn’t really let a game get there anyway. Is it possible you just play decks that already have bad UW control matchups? I lost to storm over the weekend, when I should have had a good matchup to it. I kept a bad hand with one land just because I had Rest in Peace in my opener. I never got the second land, and my opponent stormed off turn 3. It was one of the most boring parts of my magic career. Took him like 20 minutes to get through his storm, and I didn’t lose because of not having answers available, I lost because I didn’t have available answers at the time it happened. Teferi is infinite easier to stop than storm. Just have answers.
January 6, 2020 12:43 p.m.
I know the conversation gets to this point every time the question of banning something comes up, but please remember that the choice to ban a card is not about individual players and the games they may play around the kitchen table or at their LGS.
Banning a card is based off how it affects the format. Will Heliod and Ballista affect the format? I can see just that happening as it is an easy combo to make work and built in the right shell you can keep people from interacting with it. If Pioneer just becomes everyone abusing the combo of Heliod and Ballista then a change will have to be made.
However I don't think this is an Oko situation where a ridiculously powered card was introduced, abused, and then addressed. With Heliod I think this was just a whiff. Ballista has been a card used in decks regularly and this interaction with Heliod is not even something you have to "break". They are pretty much made for one another, which could be a WotC ploy to throw some more attention to their new format with a combo they fully intend on taking away once people have invested.
January 6, 2020 1:33 p.m.
This comming up set (tbd) was probrobly finalized more than a year ago. So pioneer was prob not even a thing considered when making the set.
I think set building should focus on limited and standard power, and bans take care of other formats. Doing otherwise limits the card design space. Ie you cant print this cause it will cause issues with this deck in this one format (they can pre ban that card if they find if problematic in a non standard format). Now they dont need cards that will run away with standard like they have been, but worrying so much about formats with so many combinations of cards, can limit what's possible in standard/limited. Now as a commander/limited player, I am both sides of the formats where this might effect.
January 6, 2020 2:32 p.m. Edited.
Grubbernaut says... #8
8vomit I'm not so much making a personal judgment call as a general observation of how things have gone in the past for MtG at large, where a majority of people would prefer not to lose to infinite combos - especially if they're reliable. I'm just not sure how reliable Heliod would really be, in Pioneer.
January 6, 2020 2:49 p.m.
8vomit I'll tell you exactly who I am.
A person with an opinion.
There are already formats where you can combo off. Modern and EDH, to name just two.
Wizards themselves have said they want Pioneer to be different from Modern.
January 7, 2020 12:56 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #10
I disagree with the notion that the combo will be banned simply because “they want the format to be different than modern.” If it becomes an oppressive deck then yes, Walking Ballista will get banned, for the same reason Bridge From Below got banned before Hogaak.
Losing Ballista will absolutely not “nuke” the decks that play it, specifically Green. It will cause some inconsistency when they have good ramp hands, but don’t hit their desired 7-8 mana. Them playing a 1/1 ballista on 2 and having extra mana to pump into it and pick off your creatures is annoying as hell.
January 7, 2020 3:05 a.m.
Getting rid of Walking Ballista will absolutely nuke the Hardened Scales deck.
It will also get rid of an important piece from Izzet Ensoul, which has already had Smuggler's Copter removed.
January 7, 2020 6:39 a.m.
Well that's the real kicker isn't it. I had an opinion once too, doesn't mean I want people to stop playing a certain way.
The fact remains, answering this combo is still as simple as playing a removal spell.
January 7, 2020 8:31 a.m.
Wizards wanting pioneer to be different than modern is one thing. Pioneer actually being different than modern is a whole other thing. When you introduce a competitive environment to any situation, you are going to have people looking for the most effective ways to win. That includes cheating powerful effects onto the board, playing decks with a lot of relevant redundancy, and yes, combos that are difficult to interact with and that win the game immediately. That said...I still don’t think the Heliod combo will be big enough in pioneer to warrant a ban. Will it win games? Yes. Will it long term warp the format...maybe for a time until the people testing it out realize it’s just another thing that can happen. Remember when Sanguine Bond and Exquisite Blood warped formats? Me neither...
January 7, 2020 9:27 a.m.
The problem with the heliod combo is it is too slow. Heliod is three mana, balista must be cast for 4 mana, and then you need another 2 mana to give it lifelink.
It is a decent combo, though, since both parts of it do something useful (unless you do not play creatures, then Heliod sucks, so UW control is probably not gunning for that combo). The two cards just belong in different deck archetypes, despite comboing with each other.
January 7, 2020 9:37 a.m.
Turn 2: Walking Ballista Turn 3: Heliod Turn 4: Battlefield Promotion (or similar) - combo off
Turn 4 isn't that slow
January 7, 2020 10:22 a.m.
Turn 4 only if you include another card, otherwise turn 5. And again, this combo has no home - these cards are not very good unless together - and still gets wrecked by literally every removal spell.
January 7, 2020 10:27 a.m.
I provided one possible example without even really trying. When players start trying to take advantage of this combo it could get ugly.
There are answers to everything. The questions regarding Ballista and Heliod aren't if there are answers, it is will this combo affect the format as it stands. There are answers to Oko and yet it got banned where it did because it was dominating the formats in a way that made it almost unplayable unless you had a mirror. If players decide to do the same with Heliod and Ballista in a shell that supports and protects that combo then one of them probably gets banned and Ballista will be the likely culprit.
I'm not advocating for either to get banned by the way, but I'm also not going to pretend this isn't a possibility. As with anything, we will have to wait and see how and if the combo is played.
January 7, 2020 11:09 a.m.
Removal is not an answer as to why a card(s) is/are overpowered.
You could easily remove Smuggler's Copter and you could also remove Oko.
Things get going a lot faster with Heliod + Ballista when you add
Use four Elvish Mystics and four Llanowar Elves to ensure at least one mana dork in your opening hand.
Turn 1: Land + Dork
Turn 2: Land + Heliod
Turn 3: Ballista with 2 +1/+1 counters
Turn 4: Combo off
January 7, 2020 11:13 a.m. Edited.
Argy, I still maintain Smuggler's Copter was fine.
I will continue to reassert that Pioneer is not the format for this combo. There is a modern deck that already plays a copy of Walking Ballista , and Heliod, whether you combo off or not, fits into the shell already. Martyr Life wants Heliod so badly. Pioneer will be janky at best.
January 7, 2020 12:02 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #20
Y’all gotta realize that there’s a HUGE difference between Heliod/Ballista combo, and the original, true, t4 combo- Splinter Twin. The keyword “flash” is an incredibly important keyword. Slamming Pestermite or Deceiver Exarch on the end step after your opponent just tapped out was devastating. That’s not possible with this combo. None of the pieces are instant speed. That makes a world of difference.
Also, the colors the combo is in. Red/Blue twin combo made for an incredibly oppressive Control deck that could just win in one turn whenever they felt they had counter backup/ or just because you tapped out. You all are talking about a g/w Heliod/ballista deck. Not controlling, at all. It would more than likely be a deck committed fully to the combo, cards like Traverse the Ulvenwald and similar will probably be used to help locate key pieces to win.
These two distinct differences (flash, and color of the deck) are incredibly important when considering if the combo will get banned. I’m not even convinced it’s playable.
January 7, 2020 1:08 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #21
capriom85 smugglers copter was certainly NOT fine. It was awful. Playing it on turn 2 gave every single one of your creatures haste, while also turning it into a Merfolk Looter . That’s incredibly powerful. The black aggro decks could keep basically any hand with 4 lands, copter, and a creature, and copter will not only find them more gas, it gives their crappy Bloodsoaked Champion flying AND haste AND deals an extra damage.
You really don’t see how this was an issue? Because it was.
January 7, 2020 1:17 p.m.
Daveslab2022, no I don’t really see why that’s an issue. Smuggler's Copter did exactly what it was designed to do, in all the decks it was designed to do it in. Even Rosewater explained it was banned for “being used too much”. It was in all the aggro decks. Not a surprise since it’s an aggro card, and a damn good one. It just about neutered mono blue tempo when banned, which sucks. Black devotion is still fine. Walking Ballista is also a widely played card. It makes no sense to ban it because it isn’t oppressing the format. I don’t believe Copter oppressed it just by fitting into a lot of decks. Dreadhorde Arcanist shows up on a ton of lists, no ban worries. Dig Through Time ...same thing. Widely played shouldn’t equal bans. I think it was a hasty ban choice. That’s all. Saying it’s oppressive because all the aggro decks use it is like saying Supreme Verdict is oppressive because all the UWx decks use it.
January 7, 2020 2:22 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #23
Lmao the argument of “it was doing what it was designed to do...” is incredibly naive. Ancestral Recall draws 3 cards. That’s what it was designed to do. Why is it restricted in Vintage? Because it does what it was designed to do, but too well.
Every card that gets banned is just “doing what it was designed to do,” but that doesn’t change the fact they are incredibly unhealthy for a format. Giving Bloodsoaked Champion haste and allowing it to loot, created a very unhealthy format that no other deck could compete with, without playing specific silver bullet cards. This not only inhibits deck design, but also inhibit a diverse meta game.
January 7, 2020 5:10 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #24
Dude if you think Dreadhorde Arcanist (which only fits into a very succinct archetype), is even remotely similar to Smugglers Copter in terms of amount played you are not paying attention. There’s 1 maybe 2 fringe decks that play Arcanit. U/r Phoenix, which has not proven to be a legitimate contender at the tier 1 level, and Feather decks, which are incredibly fringe. Dig Through Time is similar. It is really only played in u/w control, and while it’s a dominant deck, that card is definitely not the reason. They don’t even play 4 copies.
January 7, 2020 5:15 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #25
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/pioneer-preliminary-2020-01-07
These are the 5-0 decklists from previous MTGO Pioneer tournaments. If Dig Through Time and Dreadhorde Arcanist were similar play/power levels, why don’t they show up in every single blue or red deck?
January 7, 2020 5:21 p.m.
@Argy the situation you just described is very fragile and would definitely not be competitively viable. it lacks any for of ensuring you get your pieces, as well as any form of protection. Fatal Push . Abrupt Decay , Anguished Unmaking , Abrade , Assassin's Trophy , even Naturalize or Fragmentize are just a few of the many options that land before this combo can go off.
January 7, 2020 7:46 p.m.
Besides the fact that every person missing the forest for the trees here keeps stating there are answers for this combo, which has been acknowledged multiple times, I think my favorite aspect of "Boo Heliod/Ballista as Viable" assumes the answers will be in hand every time but that the pieces for the combo won't be.
And if you mulligan to ensure you have some kind of answer to this combo then you're seeing it enough to justify that play. It is not a matter of if there are answers, any banning related to this combo will come solely from how it affects the format. If enough players start playing with and break a combo between the two cards, Wizards will drop one from the format. It's that simple
January 8, 2020 8:44 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #29
FSims81 bro don’t come in here acting all holier than thou “none of you even realize....” bs. That’s rude. I said multiple times I don’t even feel the combo is viable.
January 8, 2020 12:28 p.m.
Daveslab2022 not only have I not been rude, the only person to state anything about something not being realized or needing to be realized was you.
January 8, 2020 12:43 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #31
So now not only do you not know what your own words/phrases mean, you’re going to tell me about mine? Lmao.
Saying “Every person missing the forest for the trees here.....” is saying every person needs to realize whatever it is you finish that sentence up with.
January 8, 2020 12:52 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #32
Either way, I’ve gotten my point across. Nothing in its current state will get banned. The combo is not dominantly viable due to the colors people are utilizing, and the lack of flash for any of the combo pieces. If it does become dominant, Ballista will get banned. See ya around.
January 8, 2020 12:55 p.m.
Daveslab2022 ready to go to school? Count up 12 comments and read where you start off a comment saying, "Y'all gotta realize..."
Ok, now for the lesson. Everyone missing the forest for the trees here is in reference to the original post going by the wayside to argue about the viability of a single possible combo and how effective it might be. Argy was asking about cards everyone thinks should be banned, not if having an answer to a card or situation makes that card unbannable which is what the conversation has become. It absolutely does not mean every person needs to realize anything. It does mean that every person, myself included, has stopped looking at the forest (the OP) and is instead looking at individual trees.
January 8, 2020 12:57 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #34
Dude I never said I didn’t say anything about realization. I just said you don’t even know what you said, so you can’t talk to me about what I said.
You might’ve “taken me to school” but I hope you’re the one who learned something.
January 8, 2020 1:38 p.m.
No point keeping on referencing me.
I started this topic to just have a chat, but it got personal, so I'm done with it.
January 11, 2020 5:43 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #37
I love how people are saying Heliod+Ballista combo isn’t viable when there are decks literally playing Mono-White devotion (splashing green for CoCo) and doing very well. Lol. I think it might become oppressive. It’s hard to interact with because you can easily win on turn 4 in these devotion builds by simply playing out your 2 drop (Daxos or Anafenza), then 3 drop (heliod), and then Ballista for X=1 and trigger your 2 drop and proceed to then go off. I agree Heliod may need to go.
On a different note, another deck that is gaining steam is Dimir Inverter and I’m thinking Thassa's Oracle should have never been printed in a standard legal set lol. I think Inverter of Truth should get the ax as well because in 2 players tour events, combining both top 8’s, there was a total of 5 (I believe, could have been 6) Dimir Inverters amongst them.
Not saying there should not be any combos in Pioneer, all I’m saying is they don’t want the “Turn 4/5 Non-interactive Combos” in Modern, why are we allowing them in Pioneer? There should be a different feel for Pioneer than Modern and with Wizards printing higher power level cards without truly utilizing a quality Testing Team, they are warping formats that have hope and are ruining player experiences by having to ban their own Key Cards because they have morons working for their testing and R&D.
February 3, 2020 5:36 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #38
Dude the last person to comment on this thread was January 11th, BEFORE the set even dropped. So there’s no reason to talk about what people are running NOW, a full month later, and act like it was a fact the whole time this thread has existed.
February 3, 2020 12:04 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #39
Also, according to mtgtop8.com it’s not even 1% of the meta. So get outta here with your anecdotal references, and bring some hard data.
February 3, 2020 12:08 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #40
Daveslab2022 ....umm, hi. Yeah, excuse me? Was the set not already spoiled or at least mostly spoiled by then? Were these interactions not already being discussed? Isn't this an ongoing thread where people can voice their own OPINIONS? Hmmm...thought so.
Also, the fact that you use mtgtop8.com reliably proves that you are in fact, ill-informed. It is a site that is more so than not, incorrect when it comes to percentages. Not entirely incorrect, but it is often skewed. Just watch the tournaments and events for yourself and visually see what is performing well consistently. Just because someone brings Jank builds doesn't mean it's "part of the meta", well at least not competitively.
And just because something isn't a "huge" part of the meta yet, doesn't mean it isn't a problem. The fact of the matter is, a deck that IS NOT a part of a meta as much and is putting up far better numbers than decks that ARE a big part of the meta shows something even better in fact as how it can become a problem later. For the simple fact that the higher percentage of the type of deck that is played should have a higher chance of making the top tables...it's statistics and probability.
Like I said before, this "opinionated" thread leads me to say, these 2 decks, if left unchecked, could warp the format into what the MAJORITY of people didn't want to happen to Pioneer. Example? See my last paragraph in my previous post.
Also, I wanted to confirm that there were 6 total Dimir Inverter decks in the combined Top 8's, with one of the Top 8's seeing a total of FIVE alone.
February 3, 2020 9:07 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #41
You came in here talking about present tense shit that’s happening, not realizing nobody even said anything on this thread BEFORE the set dropped.
“I love how..... when there are people literally playing mono white splashing green.”
Except this was not a true statement on January 11th. The last time someone commented. Stop embarrassing yourself.
February 3, 2020 11:32 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #42
So just because the discussion came to a halt, which you played a part in, that means the discussion shouldn’t continue?
Does the format meta change at all with new set releases? Oh, it does? Hmmm...whoa! Maybe the discussion needs to continue.
You’re free to not be a part of it, especially if all you’re going to do is antagonize people and belittle them (in case you need help deciphering that, it basically means don’t be a dick).
February 4, 2020 1:22 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #43
I’m not saying the discussion shouldn’t continue.... but you’re acting like we were ignoring readily available information... that wasn’t actually available at all... that’s all I’m saying m8.
February 4, 2020 1:29 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #44
Also it’s humorous to call me a dick when your FIRST SENTENCE to the thread was incredibly condescending. “I love how people....” is a great conversation mover. /s
February 4, 2020 1:30 a.m.
I think Islands should be banned. I mean, blue is the color to counter spells, and isn't the whole point of Magic to play cards? In fact, WOTC should just remove the color all together. Nobody likes playing against blue.
/s
February 19, 2020 4:55 p.m.
Darkewarrior says... #46
Thoughtseize, I don’t think it should be banned, but definitely restricted. turn 1 on the play ripping cards out of your opponents hand is inequitable; there isn’t a single card in pioneer that can interact with thoughtseize turn 1 on the play. Restricting it to no more than 2 in a deck would definitely help other decks climb the leaderboards, and it wouldn’t hardly be crippling to the decks that mainboard thoughtseize.
March 4, 2020 12:30 a.m. Edited.
Daveslab2022 says... #47
Darkewarrior there isn’t meant to be an answer to Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize IS the answer, my guy. It’s what keeps combo decks in check. It stops the format from running rampant. Just because you don’t like playing against Thoughtseize, doesn’t mean it should be restricted.
March 7, 2020 4:51 p.m.
Darkewarrior says... #48
Did I ever say I didn’t like playing against thoughtseize? Nope, I didn’t, you made an incorrect assumption.
March 7, 2020 5:16 p.m.
sliverjedi09 says... #49
heliod's fine. Smuggler's Copter and Veil of Summer should be unbanned though.
March 7, 2020 5:16 p.m.
sliverjedi09 says... #50
Darkewarrior lets not pretend that you weren't heavily implying you didn't like playing against thoughtseize, after everything you said. you didn't "have" to say it directly. you're only using the "i didnt say that" excuse because you know Daveslab2022 is right.
Boza says... #2
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria . It is the most oppressive permanent in the game to exist and being a win condition of the msot annoying variety and UW decks being allowed to not run any other win cons is absurd.
January 6, 2020 7:10 a.m.