why hasnt titan been banned
Modern forum
Posted on Feb. 25, 2022, 2:25 p.m. by IndepenentMeta
its been a few years and ive seen a ton of new cards get the ban hammer but never seen Primeval Titan get the ban hammer. could u guys give me some insight
psionictemplar says... #3
I feel like a large reason titan isn't banned lies in the fact that it is 6 mana and a creature.
February 25, 2022 3:32 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #4
Omniscience_is_life lurrus ending and murk are all good they cant put an insane amount of damage with valakut.
psionictemplar u can see him as early as turn 3 its cmc is not a problem
February 25, 2022 3:49 p.m.
VensersJournalist says... #5
I think it mainly has to do with the fact that although Primeval Titan is very powerful and can be either ramped into or cheated into play as soon as turn 3, it is a creature that is easy to interact with, and it has nothing built into it that makes the card itself easier to cast (like delve or convoke).
Because it doesn’t have hexproof, shroud, or any type of built-in graveyard recursion, you can do any of the following:
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counter it
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destroy it
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exile it
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enchant it (think Arrest type enchantments)
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take control of it
It may seem hard to believe, but that does make it “balanced” in a certain sense.
February 25, 2022 4:05 p.m.
We've all got those cards we look at and wonder why they're not banned. I personally still have a grudge against Manamorphose and Mishra's Bauble.
Anyway Titan's gotten a lot of help over the years but the biggest problem is that MH2 brought us Unholy Heat which gives decks a way to kill a Titan at instant speed for 1 mana without giving your opponent a land. And also there's Dress Down which you can cast in response to the Titan so that its enter the battlefield trigger doesn't happen. They get a 6/6 and... that's it. The deck isn't bad or dead by any stretch and if Grixis Death's Shadow (the best Unholy Heat+Dress Down deck) drops off in metagame share Titan can make a resurgence, but the card's far easier to handle than it was when the best removal spell was Fatal Push.
But yeah it's never fun when they resolve Titan and you're 98% sure you're dead right now but you're obliged to wait for them to prove they can get their mana right and kill you, and they always do.
February 25, 2022 4:35 p.m.
Here, lets ban lurrus and if titans a problem after that I'll gladly join your ban-train
Also, Let's ban lurrus.
February 25, 2022 5:39 p.m.
psionictemplar says... #8
IndepenentMeta : While that it is true titan can come on turn 3 (t2 is possible on a 2x amulet draw), the number of cost efficient answers have also greatly increased. Unholy Heat and Solitude are two commonly seen ones, not to mention the possible ways to interact before titan could even hit play. (Ex:Thoughtseize/Grief).
There also has to be the consideration that at 6 mana, it should be a powerful card able to win games in a short time frame.
That being said, I've taken my fair share of titan beatings over the years and its gotta be one of the more enjoyable ways to lose in my book. The level of skill necessary to do the truly powerful plays makes it reasonable and fair in my opinion.
February 25, 2022 8:03 p.m.
wallisface says... #9
The reason it's not currently likely to be banned is obvious - it's currently not causing any issues at all to the meta - it's neither dominating the format, nor causing any kind of oppression.
There have been times when this wasn't the case, and so far Wotc has chosen to ban other cards instead of the Titan itself when these issues arise (I think at least 3 cards have died for Titans sins over the years). In the future if the deck does reclaim a dominant position in the meta, there is a chance they ban it - but I don't see that happening anytime soon. At the moment there are just decks that either perform faster than it, or just have too many easy ways to answer it.
In a world where Omnath is running wild, the Titan really doesn't look that scary.
February 25, 2022 9:48 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #10
wolfhead lurrus aint that bad to me, it has 2 toughness and to me seems real frail to basic burn spells like bolt or Unholy Heat. it can cuz crazy comebacks from 3 life like ive seen it do. but over all i dont think lurrus should be banned
February 25, 2022 9:52 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #11
psionictemplar i just think its about time it gets the ban hammer i mean if cards like Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath Oko, Thief of Crowns Arcum's Astrolabe n Once Upon a Time all had a way shorter life span than titan. its ridiculous imo
February 25, 2022 9:59 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #12
wallisface yeah the one ban i can remember of titan i can remember is Summer Bloom. but titans gotten a bunch of cool shit since then
February 25, 2022 10:05 p.m.
wallisface says... #13
IndepenentMeta as well as Summer Bloom I'd say both Once Upon a Time and Field of the Dead were both banned largely because of the Prime-Titan archtype.
However, I really don't think the card needs banning anytime soon, if at all. I feel like there is possibly quite a lot of bias behind you wanting it gone (presumably the decks you play find it a difficult matchup). With the current state of modern, the card/deck is neither a threat nor anything to be particularly concerned about.
February 25, 2022 10:20 p.m.
Now that I got my douchey backpedaling out of the way,
I think the philosophy of titan is considered the safest way for people to do the thing.
Many cards have died for titans sins,
And I really do hope that the inevitable next card that breaks titan, titan will finally get the ban.
But it's just the best way to do non-tron big mana,
And while I really like the card and playstyle I do hate homogenization (which is my argument against lurrus),
Is it considered homogenization between the reclaimer builds, sakura scout builds, valakut builds, and whatever else I missed?
Because there are other cards that each deck could pick up in place of titan I say yes.
I do find it interesting and kinda funny (sorry, I'm an asshole) that you're complaining about titan right now since titan really isn't doing much,
But stupid titan nut draws from any of those decks can be infuriating to play against, I totally feel you. And despite all the nerfing, sometimes it still just plays out as "did you draw your big-mana hate?"
Still beats the hell out of the days where your only out was hoping your opponent misses their pact trigger...though tbh I enjoyed that way more than the field of the dead days.
But man, I don't think we need to shoot out another of their kneecaps.
The guy who brought up omnath is spot-on.
February 25, 2022 11:08 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #16
The point of the game is to do busted stuff. That's what makes it fun. The balancing act is to make it so everyone can do busted stuff.
And wizards, as often as possible, tries to keep archetypes viable when they ban stuff. I mean, if they just banned Titan, every single Titan player would feel disenfranchised, possibly leave the game, and probably lose quite a bit of money. When it's a good couple percent of the modern meta(several thousand players), that's just not a good move if it can be avoided.
I mean, imagine if your favorite deck got banned because someone else just thought it was too good. You wouldn't be happy.
There's just no real reason to ban it. Yeah, it can turn 2 kill sometimes. So can Infect, and Infect isn't even a top tier deck anymore. Yeah, it does big stuff, but so does Tron. Yeah, it's pretty consistent but so is Burn.
It's not even warping the metagame all that much. Lurrus has a much more intense effect on the metagame, and it's still not all that bad. People hate Lurrus out of the principle, not the fact that it's actually that much more powerful than other things you can do at 3.
February 28, 2022 9:04 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #17
i still got spanked by that deck and i surgical the titans both games ;/
February 28, 2022 11:19 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #20
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/23-02-22-rakdos-control/
this one in particular
March 4, 2022 10:56 a.m.
Grubbernaut says... #21
That deck doesn't look competitive, based on card choice, whereas Titan is a tiered deck that's hyper efficient.
March 4, 2022 11:58 a.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #22
but ive ran shit like grixis shadow and still had a hard time with titan.
March 4, 2022 2:22 p.m.
As someone who quit MTG all together when Summer Bloom got banned, I can say the deck isn't nearly as explosive as it used to be. There's plenty of other decks in the format that are more consistent and nothing in the titan list really breaks the format. Therefore, I'd say it isn't really worthy of a ban.
Titan and Tron are two big mana decks that actually help to keep the format diverse. Otherwise, you'd be facing a bunch of low CMC decks where games end by turn 4-5 almost always and nobody ever sees bigger spells. That sounds like a boring format to me.
Think of the meta sort of like rock, paper, scissors - you need all 3 to keep each other in check. You need aggro to keep control in check. You need control to keep combo (big mana decks) in check. And finally, combo can usually outrace aggro.
So basically:
Aggro > Control
Control > Combo
Combo > Aggro
If you are struggling with Titan decks so much, try adding some control elements to your deck. All combo decks fall apart when you attack their weakest links, titan is no exception. Big mana decks have two Achilles heels - attack either the manabase or the payoff cards.
Omniscience_is_life says... #2
While Amulet Titan is 6 percent of the modern meta right now, it's still only like the 5th best deck--if anything should be banned, it's Lurrus of the Dream-Den, Prismatic Ending, or Murktide Regent. They simply see more play and win more often.
February 25, 2022 2:38 p.m.