Can storm players help me here.
Modern forum
Posted on March 4, 2019, 6:52 a.m. by Vman
Hello good people. Ive been wondering if the typical ur gifts storm can do kills without card:manamorphos? If yes, how do u get the blue mana to keep cantripping? Duress into Surgical Extraction situations do happen. How do u storm off? Do u need atleast 1 manamorphos to realisticly go off? If not can i get any examples?
Also what do u say about running just 1 Past in Flames . I see sideboard guides shaving 1 off in game 2 alot.
Please do help a non storm pro out :)
SynergyBuild but do you know how to storm off without manamorphos?
March 4, 2019 9:34 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #4
I mean, mono-red storm exists xD Faithless Looting , more Past in Flames , Act on Impulse , etc.
March 4, 2019 11:06 a.m.
SeekerofSecrets says... #5
I would definitely not drop to 1 pif, your opponent is always going to put it in your yard from gifts so you want to be able to hit it twice
Storming off without manamorphose should be possible though, the only time you should be using U mana is to cast Gifts and remand to double your grape shot (or a opt to draw into grapeshot from noxious). Id have to play test a few time to get an exact number but I assume you would need to be able to float 3-4 U to reliably go off.
March 4, 2019 11:13 a.m.
joshy26247 says... #6
@Vman I agree with @SeekerofSecrets. Lots of blue mana after the Gifts Ungiven isn't always necessary. It definitely helps to have lots to maybe cantrip more, but very often rituals, past in flames, and one more gifts should be enough. This can be achieved either by Manamorphose, or by keeping a land untapped that can generate blue. The turn you go off (usually 3-4, maybe 5), if you have a Baral or Electromancer, rituals cost one red so two or more other lands are untapped.
March 4, 2019 12:36 p.m.
SeekerofSecrets says... #7
Yeah I think if you have a bear on the field you should need 4 U to hit it (2 gifts, remand, cantrip), so unfortunately if they surgical Manamorphose before we can use it, it wont be until turn 5 that we can go off
March 4, 2019 12:45 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #8
The reason you need a Manamorphose in deck is with a Baral/Electromancer, you use it along with Pyretic & Desperate Ritual to cast the PiF in the yard. It makes going off cost 1 less to recast the PiF, (as there is no 3rd ritual, Rite of Flame & Seething Song banned and all, other than Manamorphose) and 1 mana less after (since you'd recast it from the yard after PiF).
Overall, without manamorphose in the deck, the deck loses consistency (It is a free spell for mana and card advantage), mana (with Baral/Electromancer it nets mana and is the 3rd ritual), makes Gifting tons worse (remember if you need to recast Gifts from the yard it does take blue, and landbases aren't always perfect at fixing mana in the right amounts), and is really important for fixing red into blue, I'd say it is very nessecary. (Even as a 1 of for gifts to fetch)
March 4, 2019 12:47 p.m.
SeekerofSecrets says... #9
Oh yeah Manamorphose is absolutely essential but I have won games through a surgical
March 4, 2019 1:05 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #10
And I have won a game with no storm cards in my deck, doesn't mean I should recommend a player to not run them. (Electromancer + Baral beating face actually worked)
March 4, 2019 1:27 p.m.
SeekerofSecrets says... #11
SynergyBuild awww yes good old baral beats but one of the original questions was if it was possible to still combo off after a Duress into Surgical Extraction
March 4, 2019 5:01 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #12
I mean... Remand the duress? Dispel the Surgical Extraction ? Pray they don't do it.
March 4, 2019 6:03 p.m.
TheAnnihilator says... #13
Yeah, guys... The sided out PiF is because it hedges against grave hate in G2 and 3, I'm pretty sure. In my brief experience with Storm (only enough to goldfish it correctly and understand the key cards), you only realistically need 1 PiF to win. Remember, you can always get Remand as part of a Gifts package and use it to buyback Grapeshot (even if they bin it, you just PiF it).
As for Morphose, you don't need it if you're going for Empty the Warrens postboard, so that's one way to play around it. But yeah, I've found that if you wait until T4ish to go off with reducer in play (or T5 without), you only need 2 blue to combo really and thus just need the rituals if you leave 2 mana open. Oftentimes it's for a Gifts and some interaction (including Remand your own Grapeshot). Serum is a relatively low-value play while storming anyways, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
March 4, 2019 6:30 p.m. Edited.
SeekerofSecrets says... #14
TheAnnihilator so the reason I said 4 U is that if (and if your opponent is experienced they will) your opponent puts Grapeshot in the yard you have to get it back to your hand before you can remand it to "double" your storm count. so you'll need to cast Noxious Revival and then some cantrip and then you can cast it.
Unless I'm missing something (which I probably am) thats just how I've sequenced it in the past. I'm not a super experienced storm pilot but I've played it at around 20 small events
March 4, 2019 6:49 p.m.
manamorphose isnt neccesarry for sorm to exist. stomr can usually goes off without casting cantrips. They are used before that to sculpt your hand. There are better surgical targets than MM dont bother with it.
March 4, 2019 8:39 p.m.
lukas96 oh really? Sorry im bot a great storm player. Could u be kind enough to share a t4-5 or even at worst turn 6 gifts pile that can storm without manamorphose? What do i need to make it happen
March 4, 2019 8:57 p.m.
Well for your standart giftpiles you always want mana morphose. So you get one ritual guaranteed (or a sideboard card), there isnt a specific gift pile for when you cant get mana morphose, at least not that im aware of. It depends what you have and what you need in that situation.
So indeed to make gifts work you usually need manamorphose. That doesnt mean that storm cant win without it though. Rituals, Pifs and grapeshot or empty, maybe remand is what you need and gifts/morphose are the most common way to find them but not inherent part of the win itself
March 4, 2019 11:27 p.m.
Well yes people say its possible without the card. But how? What example of a pile can you win without getting it.
Im just asking for 1 somewhat realistic example of it
March 5, 2019 12:23 a.m.
again. you dont need a pile to win. Gifts is a turor to find your kill. its not part of the Kill and neither is manamorphose.
March 5, 2019 12:38 a.m.
Yes exactly. Soblets say turn 3 u have a electromancer in play, a ritual in hand and a gifts. How would u try to win. I only know ways via manamorphose
March 5, 2019 12:41 a.m.
SeekerofSecrets says... #21
Vman so to win on turn 3 you actually need 2 rituals, 3 land, a bear on the field, and gifts in hand. But here's a theoretical turn 5 kill without Manamorphose
you'll need 5 land (4 of which can tap for blue and 1 that can tap for red) a bear on the field, 2 rituals and gifts in hand.
float 4 blue and 1 red.
cast rituals to 5 red: storm count 2
cast gifts grabbing 2 rituals, Past in Flames, Opt: storm count 3, 3 blue, 3 red
opponent gives you a ritual and an opt
cast ritual: 5 red, storm count 4
flash back Past in Flames, storm count 5: 1 red
flash back all rituals in yard (4 total): storm count 9, 9 red
flashback gifts: grabbing Remand, Past in Flames, Noxious Revival, Grapeshot. storm count 10, 2 blue, 7 red
opponent will likely give you Past in Flames and noxious.
cast noxious putting grapshot on top of your library: storm count 11
cast opt drawing grapeshot. storm count 12, 1 blue
cast Past in Flames: storm count 13, 4 red
cast grape shot but remand the original putting it back in your hand.
doing 13 damage, storm count 15 0 blue, 3 red
cast grapeshot for the kill.
this is the least mana intensive deterministic kill that I can come up with. please check it though and make sure that I sequenced it correctly and didn't over look a simpler path.I picked those opponents choices for gifts because I feel like they where the worst case scenario so any other options could be simpler
March 5, 2019 11:22 a.m. Edited.
SeekerofSecrets man thats quite inneficient indeed! It seems to be pretty hard to pull off without manamorphose. Atleast not impossible. Thank you
March 6, 2019 10:55 a.m.
SeekerofSecrets says... #23
Np! It was a good exercise to see how well I knew my own deck
March 6, 2019 11:07 a.m.
What SeekerofSecrets said! You can work around it...the deck has some flexibility againts this kind of things...Also try to have one or two extra wincons in the SB, Aria of Flame Ignite Memories...also dont forget bout Empty the Warrens... in some match ups, grapeshooting and manamorphosing are just out of the ecuation!
SynergyBuild says... #2
I feel 2 PiF allows you to combo out game 1 on the play. Often if you are going into a game on the play, I'd not side out the second PiF, but often would if going on the draw.
I haven't spent a ton of time testing that drop though, so I'd like to hear your results, also Manamorphose is pretty necessary.
March 4, 2019 8:48 a.m.