B&R announcement tomorrow
Modern forum
Posted on July 7, 2019, 10:33 p.m. by heckproof
As y’all probably know, the Banned and Restricted announcement drops tomorrow. I don’t think anyone was expecting any changes about a month ago, but then a very scary deck starring Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis exploded onto the scene, and now Modern is incredibly broken and (in my opinion) incredibly unfun to play because of the extreme linearity showcased by the dominant strategies. I mean, I play Bogles, and even I know something’s wrong with how linear these decks play.
Considering the current state of Modern, what cards (if any) do you see getting banned and why? Should Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis be emergency banned as Eye of Ugin once was? Is it finally time to say goodbye to Faithless Looting and all the shenanigans it enables? What about Ancient Stirrings ?
Place your bets, ladies and gents!
My bet: No changes.
Hogaak is powerful of course, but IMO it's nowhere close to emergency-ban levels. WOTC is going to let WAR + MH1 + London Mul + M20 settle out first.
July 7, 2019 11:21 p.m. Edited.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #4
My prediction: no changes
My realistic hope: Bridge from Below banned
But I wouldn't mind seeing Looting or Stirrings get the hammer. And I expect we won't see any unbannings, but man would I be excited if Stoneforge came off the list.
I think Hogaak is definitely tier 0 and it's worth emergency banning something from it, but I don't think WOTC will take action against a deck that uses cards that are available from current packs.
July 7, 2019 11:31 p.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #5
not sure why people keep mentioning Ancient Stirrings . they can leave Faithless Looting alone as well. too many other decks depend on it.
never played against hogaak myself, but looking at the decklist i see no immediate problems with it. it runs zero interaction, and its not like graveyard strategies are a new thing. modern players should already know by now to run some sort of grave hate. same thing with Altar of Dementia and artifact removal. players should already have some anyway. i'd disagree that hogaak is "tier 0". just because a deck wins doesn't mean its unbeatable. its just a numbers game. the deck is simply the new hotness so lots of people play it, so naturally it wins a bunch due to sheer representation.
hogaak itself certainly won't be banned since wotc still wants to sell horizons packs.
i think they should unban Stoneforge Mystic and Umezawa's Jitte .
July 7, 2019 11:56 p.m.
wallisface says... #6
I’m hoping to see Faithless Looting and Altar of Dementia banned.
More realistically it’ll be Faithless Looting and Bridge from Below .
There’s good odds, that if they ban Looting, that Ancient Stirrings is banned alongside it
July 8, 2019 12:02 a.m.
I can most definitely see Stoneforge Mystic being unbanned. I’ve got no clue why they keep avoiding an unban. If they do, I don’t think a Umezawa's Jitte unban would be wise. We wanna make fair decks better, and Jitte makes combat really unfun.
As for the Hogaak deck running around, I feel like too many people are clamoring for multiple cards to be banned from it (which is a bit much, imo) for WotC to ignore. The main reason for this is that the deck is waaay more resilient to hate than Dredge has ever been. The fact that 2 Surgical Extraction on key pieces of the deck usually isn’t enough is insane, and the Hogaak player’s sideboard is dedicated to fighting through hate.
Admittedly, I’d really like one of two things to happen:
-we get a sweeping ban that hits multiple decks. I’m talking a ban on Stirrings, Looting, and Bridge from Below . Make the upcoming Mythic Championship something more interesting than Hogaak mirrors all day.
-we get a massive, sweeping unban. If people don’t want to lose their busted digging spells, then give the blue decks their own. Unban Preordain or Ponder . Or both, why the heck not? Obviously SFM would be my biggest hope but I don’t feel like they’d do that without giving us a reprint first because that’d be an easy $100 card. Splinter Twin could be fine. Finally, a card I think would be interesting to see back would be Seething Song . It’s not like Storm’s even Tier 2 at this point; while people play it for nostalgia, it doesn’t do well anymore. Song would give it the boost it needs, and it could also spawn some new archetypes, like bigger All-In red. This would be my preferred course of action, but I am insane, so take that with a grain of salt. :)
July 8, 2019 12:17 a.m.
wallisface says... #8
I don’t see them having any reason to unban Stoneforge Mystic until they have a set with it in to profit from (ala Jace). Doesn’t make business sense to unban such a popular card without getting some sweet money gains
July 8, 2019 12:34 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #9
Funkydiscogod that’s all you have to add? Lmao. Any reason or logic behind it?
I agree that they won’t bank anything available in Horizons.. yet. SFM should be unbanned. Turn 3 batterskull isn’t scary. And the line of Giver of Runes into Stoneforge Mystic seems sweet, and exactly the kind of thing modern needs.
July 8, 2019 12:38 a.m.
July 8, 2019 12:41 a.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #12
heckproof: you want a ban on stirrings and looting, but an unban on Seething Song ? your priorities seem backwards. i hope you realize Seething Song would see play in more than just storm. you want turn 2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn ? unbanning Seething Song is how you get that. Simian Spirit Guide into Seething Song into Through the Breach .
July 8, 2019 12:54 a.m.
Flooremoji says... #13
What I want to happen, (probably not what is going to happen) is
Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis -Banned
Splinter Twin -Unbanned (so people will stop complaining ;)
Ban on Faithless would be Okay, but not at the top of my list.
And you know, maybe an egg to annoy Tron?
July 8, 2019 12:55 a.m.
The reason people want Stirrings gone is because Tron is already Tier 1 and gains a ton from the new London Mulligan rule. People are concerned that Tron will be able to T3 Tron every game; this allows the Tron pilot to use Stirrings to dig 5 cards deep. And, as you know, all of their threats are both colorless and game-ending.
July 8, 2019 12:56 a.m.
Sarkhan420X I didn’t mean either/or; I believe I said or. My reasoning is that, if they don’t go the bans route, then they could unban Seething Song , because they’d demonstrate that they’re okay with absurdly broken crap going down anyways.
July 8, 2019 12:59 a.m.
wallisface says... #16
Sarkhan420X others have pretty much beat me to a response by the looks of it - but yeah just cause with Looting gone Stirrings decks take over the meta.
As an abuser of artifacts, i’d be sad to see Stirring go, but I understand that after Looting it’s probably the next card to ditch to make the format healthier overall.
July 8, 2019 1:09 a.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #17
wallisface: i dont think that if looting was gone, stirring decks would "take over the meta". the only 2 decks that use it are tron or hardened modular, and the latter rarely sees play.
July 8, 2019 1:20 a.m.
wallisface says... #18
Sarkhan420X agreed that of the decks that use Stirrings only Tron sees heavy play. It’s just whether it’s determined that that alone makes it enough of a problem.
July 8, 2019 2:38 a.m.
wotc announces a summer of no banlist while they reassess what cards are broken in modern, but they keep top and eggs/kci enablers to keep the format able to keep 3 games in 50 min.
July 8, 2019 3:10 a.m.
dingusdingo says... #20
"not sure why people keep mentioning Ancient Stirrings . they can leave Faithless Looting alone as well. too many other decks depend on it."
Faithless Looting is the exact kind of card you want to ban BECAUSE so many decks depend on it. Its an extremely cheap and efficient way to move 4 cards into zones where you can use them better, which means any deck that has value from the graveyard and can splash red wants to run it. 56 card format with faithless looting as an option.
Ancient Stirrings is far more degenerate than Preordain . Digging 5 deep for 1 mana is absurd, and seeing as most decks are about 1/3 lands it is extremely rare to whiff. Decks that run this bad boy are built to have it read " for the best card in your top five" which is pretty strong for 1 mana.
Here's what I'd love to see ideally for the B&R
- Faithless Looting banned -> Huge enabler for many decks
- Ancient Stirrings banned -> Huger enabler for a specific deck
- Bridge from Below banned -> Greater SB diversity if dredge isn't a guaranteed game 1 win
- Noble Hierarch banned -> If GSZ + Dryad Arbor for a turn 1 Llanowar Elves is too strong for modern, this card should go
- Mox Opal banned -> Just like Ancient Stirrings , this good card is just nuts with the right deck. Outperforms the banned Chrome Mox in any deck that caters to artifacts.
July 8, 2019 3:28 a.m.
I personally want to see unbannings rather than bans. Unbanning SFM and Splinter Twin is the right way to go for me, without any bans. It is risky, but unbanning Deathrite will be able to stop hogaak from dominating the charts.
I think the wider the meta becomes, the less opportunities a deck like Hogaak has. And unbanning is a free thing - they can just do the Grave-troll thing again and re-ban Splinter Twin after a few months, if it is problematic.
July 8, 2019 8:15 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #22
@Boza I agree. I'll even go as far as to say unban Mental Misstep alongside DRS, to keep everything in check^^
July 8, 2019 8:49 a.m.
The printing of Mental Misstep was really a mental misstep, it is the worst free spell to exist. Lets not go that far, but still, unbans>bans.
July 8, 2019 9:01 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #24
I really disagree on the MM topic, because one can't deny the dominance of 1-drops in the format. MM might be too strong regardless of that fact, but then again they could have adressed that issue differently... idk
July 8, 2019 9:54 a.m.
and if hogaak will eat the axe today it wont be emergency banned either. thats not what that word means.
I find the tendecy of modern players to cry for a ban ones a deck gets popular pretty stupid to be honest. Yes some decks are problematic. Most decks arent though. And no "i dont like to play against GY decks" is not a reason to ban a deck. Let the guys from wotc do their job. They have sufficient data to determine how problematic a card is. We dont
July 8, 2019 10:07 a.m.
Bridge from Below is banned, no other changes.
July 8, 2019 10:40 a.m. Edited.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #28
I think that's a good move from wizards. Good riddance. Maybe unbans at the next announcement?
July 8, 2019 11:19 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #29
Sooooo
They hit Bridge from Below
No unbannings :/
How does this make the Hogaak deck play? I think it might still be fine just as a deck who wants to get 16 power on the board on turn 2, which is incredibly powerful in itself.
July 8, 2019 11:25 a.m.
I think this is the most effective and logical hit to the deck. The two other cards Hogaak and Altar are both MH1 cards, which they are unlikely to ban, since it basically says "We cannot do balance well sets for modern directly".
I think the deck is dead as is. It can just turn into normal Dredge at this point and be fine, but the opportunity to OTK is gone.
July 8, 2019 11:35 a.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #33
dingusdingo: if you're gonna quote me, have the courage to tag me. you're wrong that looting should be banned "because" its in a lotta decks. thats why it SHOULDN'T be banned. the argument that stirrings can hit lands is a poor one, because nobody is using it in a deck thats not almost entirely colorless anyway. and only 2 such decks exist, with only 1 of those decks seeing play at the highest level.
July 8, 2019 11:01 p.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #34
Funkydiscogod: i do hope you're being sarcastic about a 4/4 on turn 3 being overpowered.
July 8, 2019 11:02 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #35
"the argument that stirrings can hit lands is a poor one, because nobody is using it in a deck thats not almost entirely colorless anyway"
Please reread
"Decks that run this bad boy are built to have it read " for the best card in your top five" which is pretty strong for 1 mana."
It isn't the fact that Ancient Stirrings can hit lands that makes it overpowered, but its not something to be ignored. Helps Tron immensely by helping finish urzatron or finding mana sinks. It digs deeper than Ponder or Preordain in green.
As far as Faithless Looting is concerned, being in too many decks makes me want it banned far more. I would be a proponent of banning any card that appeared in the majority of top decks in the format, to increase deck diversity and create a more interesting meta.
Regardless, I am happy bridge was banned, but I was hoping for two more. Cheers to new deck brewing
July 8, 2019 11:25 p.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #36
dingusdingo: don't need to reread. i read "seeing as most decks are about 1/3 lands it is extremely rare to whiff" just fine. it digs deeper than Ponder because it imposes a strict deckbuilding restriction. as far as looting, wotc has already stated in the past they don't want to ban cards that cause "splash damage" to fair decks. its not right to hit a card that fair decks use just because unfair decks use it too.
July 8, 2019 11:37 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #37
Sarkhan420X ah gotchya, you're too garbage of a player to understand how flexibility impacts cards. If you don't think Ancient Stirrings being able to hit lands is relevant to the card, there's not much I can do to help. I don't know what part of this conversation made you salty, but I prefer to avoid rude + bad players with loud opinions, so I'll leave you to it.
July 9, 2019 12:53 p.m.
averagenovice74 says... #38
Yeah, I knew Bridge from Below was on it's way to the ban hammer. Really just a matter of time honestly because it's just one of those cards that has always been on the fringe of possibly being broken. Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis & Altar of Dementia just pushed it over the edge in my opinion.
After seeing cards like
Bloodbraid Elf
and
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
in action in a this modern "cycle" I feel comfortable saying that I like to see
Stoneforge Mystic
be unbanned now. Something I was VERY NOT inclined on a couple years ago perhaps but now I can see where SFM would fit in. I would be good and maybe cross fingers slow down the format a little but it wouldn't "break" it. If jace and BBE couldn't then I'm sure SFM can't neither.
I just don't want to see Splinter Twin again because it's not because it's too strong or busted...... it's because every control deck conceivable eventually morphs into a twin deck and makes the format super redundant, hurting the diversity in decks(particularly control decks) and kills any type of suspense to the meta. Games against twin are fun.......having 1/3 of the field be a twin deck isn't just because it's the "de facto control deck".
July 9, 2019 3:46 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #39
averagenovice74 with the recent printings of a TON of support for UW, I honestly don't think control decks would homogenize into Twin. A twin deck probably doesn't want Teferi, Hero of Dominaria . Moreover, UW Control would probably also be a natural predator of Twin decks. Imagine playing Teferi, Time Raveler while holding Force of Negation . Twin cannot go off, and while they try to kill Teferi, you have the time to get into the late game and get Cryptic online.
Even in the absence of Twin, there are only 2 control decks: UW and Esper, and Esper is pretty fringe. They've basically homogenized anyway, but since it doesn't have a combo as the posterchild of the deck, it goes unnoticed.
If twin comes back, and Arclight decks don't die, then there will still be 2 UR decks. But at the same time, Twin would probably have an insanely good matchup vs Phoenix. A well-timed Thing flip or a Lightning Axe is about the only way they can stop the combo. That's why I thought the meta was so much fun when Twin was around: non-interactive crap like Pheonix couldn't exist.
Grixis Death's Shadow would return in big numbers if Twin was around. Grixis would be so good vs Twin; there's almost guaranteed diversity among blue decks. Especially because Grixis Death's Shadow cannot adopt the Twin combo itself.
July 9, 2019 5:04 p.m. Edited.
Maybe we'll see some unbans later this year.
I think that modern needs a card twin (if anything at all). It would be nice to have a reason to play more interactive decks.
Control decks were quite popular lately but it would be good to see a little bit more midrange decks again.
That's also the reason why I'm actually opposed to an sfm unban. No t3 batterskull is not broken by any means of the imagination. Sfm is a fair card that's good against fair and interactive decks though and that's absolutely not what modern needs
July 9, 2019 7:37 p.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #41
dingusdingo: you're the garbage player because you are literally spouting nonsense about how Ancient Stirrings can go into any deck with lands. everything i've stated is FACT. nobody is using stirrings in a deck where the spells are not predominantly colorless, PERIOD. so pitifully misinformed and uneducated you are. go ahead and show me any decklist using primarily colored spells that also uses stirrings. go on. i'll wait. the card is used in ONE tier 1 deck. give up your pathetic argument you fool.
July 9, 2019 8:17 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #42
Sarkhan420X I know reading is hard, but come on buddy. Nowhere did I say Ancient Stirrings can go in any deck. I said its a huge enabler for a specific deck, with some flexibility. I never said it can go into any decklist or a decklist using predominantly colored spells. What I did say is that the flexibility of getting a colorless spell OR a land means that for you are getting the best card in your top 5 cards, which is relevant because the deck that runs this card can use it to finish urzatron. A green cantrip outperforms two different 1 mana banned blue cantrips. That's my argument, what's yours? That its only in 1 deck that occupied the largest slice of the meta before the Hogaak deck that forced a ban? Nice one dude.
I know I quoted you in my original post without tagging you, but if not being double notified about a thread pisses you off that much maybe consider going outside more.
July 9, 2019 9:16 p.m.
Sarkhan420X says... #43
dingusdingo never said you had to double notify me you ignorant jackass. you're the one with reading comprehension issues. you really think tron was the largest slice of the meta? that just proves your ignorance. you lost. give it up. if you really think banning stirrings will solve anything, you need to stop playing magic. stirrings is a perfectly fair card. git gud scrub.
July 9, 2019 9:46 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #44
dingusdingo Sarkhan420X oh my god just block each other and get it over with already. I haven't seen hate boners this big since the last time I read Youtube comments.
July 9, 2019 10:53 p.m.
I concur. I started this thread as a way to civilly discuss the current state of Modern. Pop some chill pills and move on with your day, people
July 9, 2019 11:12 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #46
Gotta agree with dingusdingo and not just because Sarkhan420X is being unnecessarily douche-baggy. Can we move on now?
July 9, 2019 11:24 p.m.
Sarkhan420X, "the card is used in ONE tier 1 deck."
Usually, when a good card emerges, like say, Bridge from Below , there is exactly 1 top tier deck that runs it. That is like, the definition of top tier. That is not a reason against banning a card, but rather a reason for banning a card.
There are exceptions = cards that enable multiple top tier decks - like say Faithless Looting . That is an even greater reason to ban card.
July 10, 2019 3:57 a.m.
averagenovice74 says... #48
ToolmasterOfBrainerd or.......... you build a jeskai twin deck that both plays Teferi, Time Raveler and Splinter Twin combo in the same deck shell. That has the same or similar amount of tools (it also would be playing Force of Negation probably) as U/W control with the big differences of having a combo pieces build in and mana bases.
It would be the same problem as before where a deck that could play twin WOULD play twin because of the rewards and tools given outweighs the deck building restrictions put upon it. Teferi, Hero of Dominaria is a great card but if given the option of building around him or Splinter Twin 9/10 times you're picking twin because of the combo aspect alone.
I understand your reasoning behind it and I somewhat agree but I've seen this song and dance too many times before and the general meta, to me, hasn't changed enough that could change the basis of the general public not saying "just play twin". Phoenix decks are a pain but I just believe that twin is a whole different animal that morphs the entire format as a whole. Albeit it's not super degenerate to play against like Birthing Pod or Eye of Ugin it's still has a unhealthy effect on the format.
tpmains says... #2
I don't think Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis will get banned. The problem with that deck is Altar of Dementia , so I think that that card is a better choice to ban.
July 7, 2019 10:46 p.m.