Is Anyone Annoyed that Elspeth Appears to Have Returned Without Consequences?
Lore forum
Posted on Jan. 7, 2020, 9:14 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
It seems that Elspeth has returned from the underworld completely intact, with no damage to her body or psyche, despite the fact that she was literally dead.
I personally believe that that having characters return from death without any drawbacks (i.e., giving them a “get out of death free” card) is poor storytelling; if someone is returning from death, they should suffer from some form of negative consequence, or else the “death is cheap” trope is in effect. Far too many fictional series employ that trope, with one of the worst offenders being Dragon Ball, in which characters die and return to life with such frequently that they regard death as little more than a minor annoyance, so I would like to see a story in which death is something to be dreaded, as it is in actuality.
I was really hoping that Elspeth would become a returned, or at least add black to her color identity, but it seems that she is returning as if nothing bad happened to her, at all. What does everyone else say about this? Are you annoyed that Elspeth has returned from death with no negative consequences?
CastleSiege says... #3
Bolas is a near-omnipotent being and it took him centuries of planning in a spiritual form to return from the dead. Elspeth returned in a relatively short amount of time and with minimal story details. OP has a point.
January 7, 2020 9:31 p.m.
JANKYARD_DOG says... #4
Planeswalkers have for one already seen more weirdness than the average character by being able to travel to different planes. Also Elle is probably pretty hardened by the corruption of her home plate by Phyrexians, the trying to save another plane from the same fate, then, well... death (sort of?). Her return obviously has alot to do with Theros and what their afterlife rules are and whatnot. We've already witnessed Gideon's soul returning to Theros from Ravnica(See Heartwarming Redemption ), So Elle's soul must have been trapped somehow, otherwise it should have returned to her own home plane. In one of her artworks we see the spear hole... can't see through it, maybe the hole is still in her too? Idk. Anyway... all that aside, the story hasn't come to a head yet. Perhaps there are consequences, maybe she's bound to Erebos on pain of death or it'll all catch up to her later and she'll have a mental breakdown and go psycho or something, who can say.
January 7, 2020 9:40 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #5
Mj3913, I would like to believe that that card depicts Gideon actually reuniting with his friends, but it could simply be occurring in his own mind as he dies, since he did not die on Theros.
January 7, 2020 10:16 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #6
Because of the Plane she died on... no. This is a Plane based on Greek mythology which is a place where saving people from the afterlife is actually a thing.
January 7, 2020 10:16 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #7
I'm less upset about Elspeth returning from the dead with no repercussions than I am that Jace can make direct mental contact with a literal eldritch horror with no repercussions. In fact the entire story from BFZ to WAR was lazy, monster of the week, no character progressions, deus ex machina bullshit that could have been better written by a free-on-Amazon fanfic author.
January 7, 2020 10:19 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #8
Gidgetimer, that actually is a great point: how could Jace telepathically communicate with Emrakul and not have his mind shattered?
January 7, 2020 10:53 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #9
I am however annoyed she's not ... I really wanted an Orzhov Elspeth!
January 7, 2020 10:58 p.m.
Last_Laugh - In Greek Mythology, no one ever returns from the dead. The closest thing we have is Eurydice, but Orpheus ruins that at the last moment. The living sometimes return, usually after fairly horrific experiences; the dead stay put.
In fact, the many myths we do have regarding the situation of the dead in Hades seem to indicate a stint in the Greek underworld would have a pretty terrible effect on one’s mental well-being. From Achilles’ misery (The Odyssey) to Dido’s consumption by her hatred of Aeneas (The Aeneid), Greco-Roman myth paints a grim picture of the fate of those not destined for Elysium.
All told, the fact that it is Greek-inspired only further supports the OP.
January 7, 2020 11:23 p.m.
I suppose as an addendum to my above, some versions of the Alcestis legend have Heracles wrestling her from Death’s grasp within the Underworld (others before she crosses over), and returning her safely. In the Euripides version, in which she is rescued post interment in Hades, she is struck silent when she returns (despite being in Hades for only a day), requiring several days of purification before a return to normalcy.
January 7, 2020 11:31 p.m. Edited.
Last_Laugh says... #12
Adonis - A mortal resurrected by Zeus.
Achilles - Resurected(ish) by his Mother Thetis to the Elysian Plains.
Asclepius - Both killed and then later resurrected and turned into a deity by Zeus.
January 7, 2020 11:39 p.m.
There’s a reason I didn’t count your examples - they are not quite congruent to Elspeth’s situation. Adonis has to spend a third of the year with Persephone, and the remainder of the year with the Gods - not exactly a true return to life. Being transported to a different region of the underworld is still being dead. Deification does not really count as returning to life either.
January 7, 2020 11:54 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #14
Getting her Spark back could be considered akin to deification. Asclepius was resurrected and then deified.
From the wiki
Zeus was afraid that Asclepius would teach the art of resurrection to other humans as well. So he killed Asclepius with his thunderbolt. After Asclepius's death, Zeus placed his body among the stars as the constellation Ophiuchus ("the Serpent Holder").
Later, however, upon Apollo's request, Zeus resurrected Asclepius as a god and gave him a place on Olympus.
January 8, 2020 12:07 a.m.
Last_Laugh says... #15
I'm with you on the point that there should be some sort of emotional change to her character and it's why I expected her in Orzov colors.
January 8, 2020 12:10 a.m.
Asclepius‘ ability to actually resurrect the dead is only found in a single source, thus making it of questionable authority, likely an exaggeration for dramatic effect (even Homer was guilty of that - his pantheon lists Zeus as the oldest, even though that would be a impossibility due to the Olympians’ origin story). That could have been found by looking at the paragraph prior in the Wiki article.
The very paragraph you quoted as authority specifically says his resurrection was in the form of deification—a transformation from his mortal, demigod form to something new.
Elspeth returned in the same form she entered, with seemingly little change as result of her time in a place whose inspiration is so horrible that it’s denizens would rather be slaves to the worst of masters than a king among the damned.
January 8, 2020 12:20 a.m. Edited.
Since this WOTC's take on greek myth, the actual greek myth hardly matters. Elspeth returns with no consequence, because Wizards does not have any mono-W planeswalker currently in the roster after killing off Gideon. The Wanderer is white because they needed a white planeswalker to fill a slot in WAR, but other than that, there are none.
January 8, 2020 4:05 a.m.
I'm upset that they didn't even bother writing any lore stories for this whole debacle.
January 8, 2020 12:33 p.m.
Skyler1776 says... #19
“The contract signed, Elspeth felt her power return, her mind whole once more. Erebos has kept his end of the deal, now she would fufill here. “Go, my champion,” Erebos said. “Kill the sun god, and you will have unlimited power, to do with what you wish.”
“The Rise of Elspeth Tirel”
January 8, 2020 8:56 p.m.
RicketyEng says... #20
Today's Shadowspear card and the story piece to go with it are interesting to me. It says Elspeth was able to take the spear from her nightmares where she continued to experience her death over and over. I suspect Ashiok has some involvement in making the spear attainable in such a way.
I think you are all too quick to jump to conclusions about the story.
Elspeth will also have to suffer through a tragic reunion with Daxos because she is against Heliod and Daxos has been brainwashed by Heliod to do his bidding.
January 9, 2020 12:57 a.m. Edited.
CrimsonChaos says... #21
I'm more and more getting the impression that Ashiok has been manipulating things to bring about a vast wellspring of despair to Theros. Elspeth's memories are probably delectable enough for them, but granting Elspeth with a weapon to once again slay a god, then waiting for her to confront Heliod so his worst fears are realized is also probably another appetizing prospect. For what could be better for Ashiok than tasting the nightmares of the self-proclaimed "god of gods"?
Then once Elspeth puts an end to Heliod, thus taking revenge while stopping him from his ambitions, this could then place Erebos in a position to usurp the position Heliod sought, therefore giving him the chance to plunge all of Theros into his aura of despair. After all, it's very probable Erebos restored Elspeth for this very purpose. Ashiok could then use that great despair for their own ends. I assume this would be the main impetus for Klothys to try to thwart Elspeth and return her to the Underworld, knowing the destiny of Theros would be in jeopardy should she be allowed to live and kill Heliod, disrupting the balance of things.
It also wouldn't surprise me if Ashiok is the one who finds the way to unleash the titans on Theros once more. Doing so would further strike fear into, not only mortals, but all of the gods as well, which is even more nightmare fuel Ashiok can make use of. It all becomes a sort of domino effect, and Elspeth's resurrection is just one of the things needed to set it all into motion. At least, that's what I'm speculating at this time given what we know. If all of this comes to be true, Elspeth's return and freedom will likely come at the cost of facing her old friend Daxos (brought back as a demigod at the cost of becoming Heliod's new champion to establish his supremacy among the pantheon), Heliod himself, Erebos, Klothys and her servant Calix, and ultimately Ashiok. Of course, yet again reliving her darkest times is a challenge in and of itself. With so much to overcome, I'd find it hard to say her second chance comes at no expense. At this point though it's still hard to say how much of this speculation will turn out to be true, so I guess we'll see. I just wish we were getting a proper story for this set...
January 9, 2020 1:01 p.m.
Well tbh we can't say for sure Elspeth gets out of the underworld scott free because there's not enough details. We wont get a story outside of the cards to go over how Elspeth feels about anything. Does her long time imprisoned in the underworld add to her PTSD? It seems it will based on the story that associated with the black saga on the main website. There's also another card that shows her constantly being tormented by the memory of her killing Daxos. We can't say she sees a door to the underworld open and leaves after a couple of fights with a cool spear and goes, "welp that was cool. Guess I'll leave, see ya nerds."
So she could end up more cynical and unwilling to involve herself in the problems of planes she ends up at finally putting herself in peaceful exile. She may (and most likely) become more hopeful overcoming death and insurmountable odds to take over Gideon's place as MTG's white planeswalker(encouraging all the good little boys and girls to persevere and fight the good fight). Or she may become paranoid leaving the plane to try and figure out how to create her own world where nothing bad ever happens like the god-like Serra. We just din't know without a proper story in the form of a book or online story to know. There's too many nuances here that can't be explained as lazily as WoTC has done. Just because she isn't in Orzhov colors doesn't mean she didn't go through anything.
Also Ashiok has so little to do with the events on Theros... its embarrassing to think she was brought into the set for Elspeth's confilct with herself. The red enchantment Underworld Breach has a story highlight that explains the underworld opening is caused solely by the war of the gods on the mtg official website. We still don't know what caused the conflict and why Klothys is even involved when she should be going after only Elspeth instead of setting fire to villages and fighting the gods. Its all dumb and theres probably a good explanation, but no official book or honest stories to explain anything so it doesn't matter...
Skyler1776 says... #2
I mean.....Bolas did it
January 7, 2020 9:19 p.m.