Could it happen?

Lore forum

Posted on Feb. 21, 2022, 12:50 p.m. by heraldofkrenko

With the Phyrexians making tamiyo complete i had a stray thought cross my mind. What would a war between phyrexia and eldrazi look like? Could the phyrexians actually complete an eldrazi at the end? I think this would be a cool plot line for the overall story for magic, what do you all think if wotc went this way? After the brothers war of course.

JANKYARD_DOG says... #2

Fatal 3 way: Eldrazi, Phyrexians, and Slivers all mashed on one plane... see who comes out on top. XD I can dream...

If you were to ask Maro 'if or when' you'd probably get a 'more when than if, but its tricky' kind of answer I imagine. Imagine it's bound to happen sometime.

February 21, 2022 1:48 p.m.

legendofa says... #3

The Phyrexians are a ruthless, expansionist force force of assimilation and destruction with the ability to travel between planes.

The Eldrazi, while they were active, were an emotionless, unreasoning force of assimilation and destruction with the ability to appear on different planes.

Assuming that the Eldrazi start doing things again (Emrakul is freed, whatever the Blind Eternities beings are decide to do something), I think contact, and conflict, between the Phyrexians and the Eldrazi is inevitable. Whichever plane(s) this happens on will be reduced to metal and dust, with no clear winner and lots of losers. I don't think the Eldrazi can be completed, though. They're barely biological to begin with.

While this would definitely be an impactful and interesting story as it happens, none of the easy resolutions (one destroying the other, both retreating, both destroying each other) feel especially satisfying. The Phyrexians have a foothold on several different planes, and are too deeply rooted in New Phyrexia to be dug out without the plane coming with it, so they're not likely to permanently lose. The Eldrazi are "from" the Blind Eternities, which doesn't really exist in a physical sense, and can theoretically appear on any plane at any time, so they're not likely to permanently lose. And neither group has a real concept of retreating.

The most realistic outcome for me is that as each one spreads over the course of thousands of years or longer, they basically meet in a series of plane-damaging "border skirmishes." The Phyrexians will experiment on a handful of Eldrazi, and will incorporate some of what they learn into themselves, but will be unable to defeat them once and for all without currently-unimaginable technology. The Eldrazi, for their part, won't devote any particular resources to a war with Phyrexia, instead just spreading in the paths of least resistance.

February 21, 2022 2:17 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #4

Short answer: It would almost certainly be poorly written and nonsensical. Granted, that is true for most of Magic's stories, but it would be particularly true here.

Longer answer: As things currently stand, both Phyrexians and Eldrazi fall into the same "body horror" genera. Wizards' writers came up with the Phyrexian body horror by setting out to make actual body horror enemies. Eldrazi body horror is based on Wizards having bad writers who clearly fundamentally misunderstand Cosmic Horror as a genera and ended up taking a left turn into a different type of horror.

If the two met, we would see two redundant body horror entities clashing in a way that would do a disservice to both. Body horror works when mundane individuals are being corrupted and transformed--watching two things corrupt the already corrupted removes the very core element of the genera.

Additionally we would inevitably see the Eldrazi be able to be compleated--otherwise there would be no real conflict to story since the Eldrazi would be immune to the defining trait of the Phyrexians. This means we would see a further removal of the Eldrazi from their Cosmic Horror roots, as it would require the Eldrazi to be something that followed understandable and exploitable rules of physics in a way true cosmic horror does not.

February 21, 2022 3:36 p.m.

legendofa says... #5

Caerwyn I agree with your points on the redundancy of the body horror and inaccuracy on cosmic horror. But why would the Eldrazi "inevitably" get compleated? That's unfortunately what I would expect from some of the current writers, but there's story potential in the failure to spread phyresis to the Eldrazi.

Would the Phyrexians still consider themselves perfect, in the face of an unalterable being? Would a heretic faction split off, and if so, how do they proceed? Can the Phyrexians be Eldrazi-ized, and would that ultimately end in true cosmic horror? Whatever happens won't be resolved in a single meeting, unless the writing is particularly bad that day.

Many writers have been taking the lazy way out, which is disappointing. But in the hands of a more engaged storyteller, this could provide some good insight into both groups. There probably isn't going to be the right material for even a full single set, but it could make a good "What If" story.

February 21, 2022 4:52 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #6

legendofa - Because, if there is no threat of the Eldrazi being compleated, the story would not work. Phyrexia versus regular flesh required the threat of compleation - even if the Planeswalkers could not be compeleated (historically), their allies could be, which gave a sense of urgency to the conflict. An Eldrazi vs Phyrexia conflict lacks that urgency if one of the sides is completely immune to the other’s primary mode of attack and subjugation.

I’d also argue that any “insights” into the Eldrazi do them a disservice. Cosmic horror works because it specifically makes the cosmic entity unknowable - the Eldrazi aptly demonstrate why the more insights you have into their existence, the more uninteresting they become.

February 21, 2022 5:11 p.m.

Niko9 says... #7

Hmm it's an interesting idea, and there are two ways that I could see it done that would keep the semi-redundant creature types from being stage-front.

One is the tried and true method of telling the story from the on the ground perspective. I mean, you can have a movie with Godzilla fighting Mecha-Godzilla, but you don't do it from the perspective of the monsters. This does mean that you need a small group of strong characters to lead the sled and your Eldrazi and Phyrexians will be swooping in and out of the hero's journey. You could do this as a tv-show ending where, I don't know, the heroes have to unleash something else to fight the two monsters destroying their plane (Bolas maybe?), or what would be really neat is to do an ultra realistic ending. Something where the smaller forces of the world, humans, elves, goblins, mecha, etc. have to come together and as the two biggies put all of their strength into fighting each other, they are ultimately defeated by the combined force of every one that they overlooked.

The other way to do Phyrexians and Eldrazi is in a battle royale situation. A few of each get transported to a plane that just becomes one giant fight. It's not my favorite way to do it, but it wouldn't be the worst either. And it might be fun to see an ending where on this plane of all big baddies, Kiora and the krakens of the multi-planes come out on top and she takes her place as the fully recognized master of behemoths.

So yeah, I think the idea of the two monsters fighting has merit, but like was mentioned, they are so similar that you don't really want to watch the fight too much. You can see the destruction, the aftermath, and you can see how it shapes a hero's journey, but you can't sit there and write, tentacle monster fights goo monster : )

February 21, 2022 5:30 p.m.

legendofa says... #8

Caerwyn I'm seeing this play out not with urgency, but as a "historical" epic from the Phyrexian point of view. That's why I don't think it would be right for a card set, but it would work as an independent story, a continual document from Phyrexia detailing initial contact, failure to compleat an Eldrazi, the turmoil rising from finding a creature that can't be compleated, the Eldrazi Heresy, and whatever happens from there--the splintering of Phyrexia? The development of Blind Eternities technology? The complete assimilation of Phyrexia into Eldrazi-ness? All the while, the Eldrazi expansion continues to run into the Phyrexian expansion, so similar events are playing out on multiple fronts. This would take place over hundreds of not thousands of years, so it's not going to fit into the current active story, which seems to be on a week-month-year scale.

There might be a fanfiction with this premise out there somewhere. It wouldn't surprise me.

For your second point, you're completely right, and the best I can offer is that I was writing faster than I was thinking. The Eldrazi will continue to be un-insight-able.

February 21, 2022 5:32 p.m.

Niko9 says... #9

Or, they could bring Oona back into the story (I mean, they could right?) and have her flip Karn and Memnarch making good Phyrexia and evil Karn who frees the Eldrazi. That way they conflict plays out with the big creatures but the solution is localized to the smaller scale of Memy and Karn.

Full disclaimer, I don't keep up on all lore, and this may just be grasping at ideas that could never happen : )

February 21, 2022 6:01 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #10

legendofa - Except one tiny problem--your proposal does not actually add anything to advance the Phyrexians as an entity in the story that does not already exist or which is not presently being hinted at. (And you provide nothing in your proposal that would advance the already-terrible and directionless Eldrazi story).

For Phyrexia, your justification is fracturing Phyrexia and forcing them to come to terms with alternative views... which is literally the current plot of Phyrexia's storyline. Recall that the last time we saw New Phyrexia, their story was very similar to what you would propose here--multiple factions vying for their view of what Phyrexia should be. Recall also that there exists a plane of the traditional Phyrexians--Elspeth's homeplane--that Ashiok is presently looking for.

Every single suggestion you made is better served by having the already-fragmented New Phyrexia meet traditional, "Old Phyrexians". That meeting would satisfy all your proposed developments, but do so in a better, more sensible manner that does not involve bringing in an unrelated entity.

February 21, 2022 6:42 p.m.

legendofa says... #11

Caerwyn Granted, but I'm trying to adhere to the initial premise of this thread--What would happen in a Phyrexia-Eldrazi War? Could an Eldrazi be compleated?

I've laid out my beliefs for what would happen, and whether an Eldrazi could be compleated. I assume that this contact will happen long after the Mirrodin schism is settled, and probably other Phyrexian schisms. There are certainly better ways to show these story beats, but those don't address the purpose of this thread.

I don't dispute anything you're saying, but your claim that it's a better story to have New Phyrexia meet Old Phyrexia doesn't do anything for a speculative Phyrexia meets Eldrazi story.

February 21, 2022 6:55 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #12

legendofa - Except you will note that the last question is what one would think if Wizards took this direction. That it would be a disservice to both factions, would be redundant with existing storylines, and would be just generally a dumb move for Wizards to make by every conceivable metric of storytelling is a legitimate answer to the thread.

February 21, 2022 7 p.m.

legendofa says... #13

Caerwyn To clarify, and to answer the same question you are, if WotC went in this direction, it would not currently make a good set or story theme. I believe that WotC should not take this approach in the foreseeable future. (Apologies to heraldofkrenko.)

I believe that if the story could continue into the far future (both in lore terms and in card game production terms), well beyond any current storylines and considerations, contact and conflict would be inevitable. At that point, a story would have to be told.

February 21, 2022 7:11 p.m.

legendofa says... #14

Caerwyn I hope I didn't come across as rude in any of my comments, and rereading them, I can understand if I did. If so, I apologize. Never my intent.

February 22, 2022 2:47 a.m.

thanks everyone for the discussion on this topic. I know that there is a lot of cross over for both factions here, but this came up when me and my friend were talking about the new praetor cards and what elsh norn would look like. in my original post i asked if phyrexians could complete an eldrazi, but i also thought what if phyrexians tapped into the being that the eldrazi are part of during the course of study. Maybe they would try to replicate something to that affect with artifice thinking that it would be the ultimate extension of what Yawgmoth wanted. I could be wrong, admittedly i have not read a great deal of the books so please do not judge me too harshly.

March 1, 2022 7:08 a.m.

Bear in mind that the Slivers were created by a Phyrexian Evincar on a Phyrexian subplane . The original Slivers already are Phyrexian .

As for a war between the Sliver-Phyrexians and the Eldrazi , i would go ahead and say DEFINITELY .

June 27, 2022 4:34 p.m.

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