A Quest for Power: Unrestricting Vintage
The Kitchen Table forum
Posted on Aug. 18, 2020, 12:33 p.m. by Oof_Magic
I have spent the past few months toying around with the most powerful tools in all of Magic on a quest to find the most broken constructed deck possible. Essentially ramping Vintage up by removing the Restricted List. And so, amidst a sea of new format ideas, I bring a simple one. Vintage but Unrestricted. That’s it. No change to minimum or maximum deck size, no ‘commander/commander spell’, no new zone, nothing you aren’t already familiar with if you play constructed.
• No more than a play set of non basic lands unless a card says otherwise like Relentless Rats .
• All banned non-companions are still banned. So no dexterity cards or Sharazad nonsense (although Sharazad is probably safe). No command zone cards or conspiracy nonsense.
• All restrictions are lifted. Yes. All of them. This is meant to be the most unforgiving format. Know what you’re signing up for.
• Only scribbled basic lands count as official cards of the format. This is really just a fun guideline and not a hard rule. But who’s packing this type of heat and carrying it around. Ensure yourself with Basics Ensurance!!
I will get this out of the way quick. This is not meant to be a balanced or healthy format. This is an experiment to see how unbalanced the format is when you drop the weight of the Restricted List. Is it as unbalanced as might be assumed?
It certainly will be a coin-flip format. This sounds in bad taste but I play plenty of other games that operate on chance and I love Magic. Magic has classically blended randomness and probability with skill and intuition. Personally, I think there could be a space for a real competitive environment.
The folder below contains my experiments. You’ll see a wide array of decks. While many may focus on combo, the prison decks are not to be underestimated. In my opinion, they are the dominating force. And they are a big door in for diversity. So if you can swallow the inherent craziness that comes with such power, I think you’ll find that an Unrestricted Vintage may have far more diversity than one might initially think. The real question is whether people can get behind the coin-flip nature of the format. While it doesn’t always play out that way (as Leyline of Anticipation has made itself a pivotal player of the format), games are often decided by two things: 1) coin-flip, 2) matchup. But it can actually get more complicated than that. My wheel decks have a nasty habit of putting counters in the opponent’s hand. Just one example of how games are more nuanced than at first glance (unless you’re glancing at Stax).
Please feel free to come explore my own lists and offer any input. Most of the comments on my decks talk about the price which is why I put the fun ‘Basics Ensurance!’ rule. I want to talk decks and meta. I already know these decks are ridiculous on a wallet. So let’s talk about what we don’t know instead. Like what’s the most powerful deck possible in the context of a meta to play it in. Please share your thoughts on mine and please please please feel free to offer your own ideas. Magic has taught me that a community will root out problems faster than an individual. So join me on my quest for power as we search for The Most Broken Constructions!
I have so far found much experimenting to be needed. I have run into a promising diversity so far. I’ve seen Paradoxical Outcome in many variations. Most interestingly was a build that used Monastery Mentor and Time Walk to get around Leyline of Sanctity . I’ve run into Tinker / Bolas's Citadel builds. I’ve seen Blightsteel Colossus in control shells and hasty combo shells. I’ve seen Stax. I’ve used enchantment and D&T shells to success. I’ve seen Dredge. I’ve seen a very midrangey U/G build with Oko, Thief of Crowns , Collector Ouphe s, and True-Name Nemesis to tempo opponents. I’ve done Storm centered on Timetwister , Second Sunrise , Underworld Breach , Yawgmoth's Will independently. I’ve caught players by surprise with Mind Funeral and then been totally mismatched against a fair deck. I saw a clever take on burn capitalizing on Pyrostatic Pillar and Eidolon of the Great Revel alongside all the most efficient burn including the extra potent Galvanic Blast . I’ve seen Arcbound Ravager aggro. I’ve seen Flash / Protean Hulk in a couple different forms. I’m still waiting for a solid Doomsday deck to form.
This is my rough view of the meta as it stands: • Stax • D&T • Shops Aggro • Enchantment Prison • U/G Mid • Storm (in a dozen forms which is best being meta dependent) • Colossus • U/B Mill • Flash Hulk • Dredge
Storm is assumed to be a major presence of the format and while that may have truth to it, that obfuscates how diverse Storm can be. I’ve run into:
• Mystic Forge • Yawgmoth's Bargain • Paradoxical Outcome • Necropotence • Bring to Light • Underworld Breach • Mind's Desire • Bolas's Citadel • Collected Conjuring • Memory Jar • Yawgmoth's Will
This is just a brief smattering of some of the decks I’ve used and run against. Storm may be popular but that doesn’t mean it can’t also be diverse. Whether all of these would last is to be determined in the testing. But at a preliminary glance, I take no issue with Storm with all is diverse forms and am willing to accept that as an aspect of the format. I just gave eleven separate build around cards. Some can be used together but not all. Each provides a different way to approach the archetype. You can definitely argue that there isn’t much archetype diversity (Aggro is virtually non-existent) and I can definitely understand that claim. Frankly, I think a meta needs to exist before such claims can be made. When you cheat out an absurd creature, who do you turn to? When you play a bunch of spells, what do you end up running up to? When you run a bunch of counters? Etc. Not to mention these decks don’t all necessarily run the same finishers. Tendrils of Agony is a popular choice but I have personally utilized Brain Freeze , Molten Psyche , and Thassa's Oracle . There’s also a lot of small decisions that go into deck building and gameplay for each of these shells. Do you opt for slow mana sources (lands)? What rocks do you go with? Should I pitch to counter or spend the rocks? What do I pitch? And frankly deciding on an opening hand is a tough game in itself. People may think the format comes down to luck but if you keep a bad hand in any format, you are liable to get punished. UV just brings the punishment much more swiftly. Playing against slower decks can shift my mindset into keeping less resilient more combo centric hands. Then I get punished on the draw for thinking my opponent might just be slow rolling.
I’m sure there is a ton more work to do. Some of these decks are very meta prone. But I’m sure there’s more beyond this brief foray. I’ve been very pleased with what I have discovered so far. Mind Funeral will thrive in a Moxen heavy combo meta but will fade fast if fair decks like Midrange and Stax take over. Midrange can keep Stax in check but can fall to control. Enchantment prison can really hose combo and Dredge but faulter against D&T and Stax. There’s a lot to be done but I really like what I see. I’m not deluded into believing this is near a viable format yet but I find room to be optimistic.
Daveslab2022 My enchantment list has so far showed dominating performances over that Manamorphose list. Once you build the best deck, you look to build its foil. That’s how a meta develops. Once you build the foil, you build a foil to the foil. And so on.
I’m not trying to make a statement about my enchantment deck in specific but rather can you devise a foil to your own deck? Once you do, you have a meta. A small one. But it can grow from there.
August 21, 2020 2:56 p.m. Edited.
defamagraphy1 says... #3
Smh. Not hostile. You're just not right
Let's entertain this guy's theory for a second, every card is unrestricted this means
Doomsday gets better consistency, Time Vault Tezzeret decks come back as Tezz is now much easier to cast, and have access to 4 vaults they'll be packed with drain, Flash Hulk also comes back hard.
So lets say, for whatever weird case you're right. Storm decks take the top.
You don't believe that if they do the meta would adapt to play Leylines and start mulligans into Force hands?
I wasn't being hostile at all, this is from actual restricted experience. And you can't lay claim to know something when you don't know enough about it.
August 21, 2020 3:09 p.m.
It validates diversity!!!
On that note, there’s a lot of speculation. I think some data would help. If everyone just wants to speculate on my lists and smash them together, that’s fine. But I’d like community development. Post lists, so that that others (who are willing) can test them out and assess the data for themselves. Then we can cross reference data rather than speculative talking points!
defamagraphy1 I’d like to see your Doomsday and Goblin Charbelcher lists!!!
Daveslab2022 I’m legitimately seeking to understand some selections in your Power 9 list.
Please let’s try and talk cards, decks, and format.
August 21, 2020 3:23 p.m. Edited.
DeinoStinkus See how it goes. I tried to use a similar tactic in using Tinker, Transmute Artifact, and Reshape to put Time Vault and Manifold Key together. It was clunky but I should revisit. I haven’t been able to put together a true one-meets-two combo deck in the format so far. Let me know how it works out for you.
August 21, 2020 3:31 p.m.
I gave it a cursory glance so far but have some first impression questions. We can discuss the deck independently on your page.
August 21, 2020 3:38 p.m. Edited.
Daveslab2022 says... #7
defamagraphy1 lmao at “not hostile you’re just not right.”
Okay so first off, that’s hostile.
Second off, all you’ve done is constantly proven my point that this is a turn one format.
I never said my deck is the absolute deck to beat.
I did say it’s infinitely better than the trash you’ve mentioned, that all rely on specific cards being in your opener.
This storm deck draws an insane number of cards and doesn’t rely on anything except one of its card draw spells and some mana. That’s it.
I’ve provided documentation of other players suggesting the same thing I have. Until you do the same, you can keep suggesting more garbage combo decks, but it’s doing nothing for your argument.
August 21, 2020 3:50 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #8
I'll just write a starter list here I suppose (P.S. Hurkyl's Recall is a lot more broken again :D)
4 Street Wraith, 1 Thassa's Oracle 4 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Black Lotus, 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Force of Negation, 4 Force of Will, 4 Doomsday, 4 Ancestral Recall, 4 Leyline of Anticipation, 4 Serum Powder, 4 Mox Jet, 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Underground Sea, 3 Chain of Vapor, 3 Demonic Tutor 1 Mox Sapphire.
Here's an intial as there's no telling what the meta would bring. But it has some Stax stopping power if its played along the Anticipation vein.
August 21, 2020 5:09 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #9
Dude, if youre playing a draw seven, your opponents has just as much chance to stop you as you have to protect yourself while going off. But I've moved on from that.
August 21, 2020 5:11 p.m.
I’m working on transposing my own lists to Cockatrice for those interested.
August 21, 2020 5:28 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #11
Also, I think you had missed the part where I said I've played Draw Seven Storm, I've played Tendrils decks without it.
In the Draw 7 version, you have access to 8 draw seven cards in the current Vintage with restrictions. Alongside, Yawgmoth's Bargain and Will.
My deck had 4 Diminishing Returns, Windfall, Tinker/Memory Jar, Wheel of Fortune and Timetwister.
I'm very aware of the insane amount of cards it drew.
I'm also aware of the risks it had. Even with Force of Will, Chain of Vapor, and a single Copy of Hurkyl's, a tutor suite of Demonic Vampiric and Mystical and Imperial Seal.
I had Mana Vault, Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Jet, Mox Sapphire, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, L.E.D., and Black Lotus and played 4 Dark Rituals alongside it. And a Tolarian Academy as well. I had Brain Storm Ponder and Ancestral, along with 1 copy of Tendrils and I think I had 3 or 4 Thoughtseize its been a while
This deck is literally the closest you will get to unrestricted storm with 8 draw 7s and you will fizzle out.
I'm not saying it to be rude, hostile or what have you.
I'm saying this as this guy suggested something and you dismissed him with "this is the most broken," I'm saying this from direct experience in playing Storm decks with and without Draw 7s. The deck can set up some explosive plays and at the same time you have to clear a path before you go off. and EVEN THEN you can stall out and lose.
Even unrestricted it would not be the most broken as it would lack in much needed consistency. Along side the danger of setting your own opponents up to stop you.
I have noticed you have changed gears throughout this thread. You went from telling this guy his idea is dumb, to calling me a liar, to I'm hostile once I literally proved my point.
You can of course always try playing this deck, but it is not and would not be the best deck ad you claimed.
August 21, 2020 5:40 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #12
Hmm, now I'm thinking. Is the old Vintage the Best vintage?
Like, Using Flash Academy Rector and the Grislebrand/ Shoal style win
Or even Tinker on Inverter then Oracle for the win. Hmm.
Guess you gotta design the end game first the the rest of the deck
August 21, 2020 6:03 p.m.
In defense on the consistency of +7 Storm, there is quite incredible consistency in the sheer redundancy of the effect. If we’re just looking at goldfishing consistency, it’s actually pretty impressive how smooth it keeps the wheels spinning. That doesn’t discount the argument of giving counters to your opponent. Just to say that it doesn’t stumble over itself that frequently. Echo of Eons is a fantastic spinner that is best pals with LED and thrives off being discarded by earlier wheels. The deck can fizzle in goldfishing but that’s really rare. Like exiling three named Demonic Consultation targets in your top six and finding the last on the bottom kind of rare.
Just pray your opponent doesn’t have Mindbreak Trap!
I’m not a Vintage officionado but I do think there’s space for a format over Vintage. I certainly hope I’m not conveying advocacy for removing the Restricted List. I think there’s space for safe Vintage (Legacy), Vintage, and unsafe Vintage (UV).
Keep on the mill out idea. I know there’s Paradigm Shift as well and plenty of ways to get the mill. Are there enough redundant mill out conditions (Oracle, Maniac, Jace)? I don’t know. So far, I’m having trouble assembling traditional one-meets-two combo with consistency. I think Doomsday sets up Oracle to win independently which is likely better than trying to get two separate pieces together.
August 21, 2020 6:13 p.m.
Memory Jar + Tinker = Blue Wheel of Fortune Mirror of Fate + Tinker = Blue Doomsday
Spoils of the Vault and Demonic Consultation can set up your exile zone as well. Makes for tons of redundancy if you put Mirror in a Doomsday list. If my brain is looking at it right, you can set one up off another. Kind of like a wheel deck through the exile zone? That’s a headache to consider.
August 21, 2020 6:25 p.m. Edited.
defamagraphy1 says... #15
Thought Eldritch Evolution wrote Tinker. Geez. Lol.
But this would work like, land Dark Ritual, Black Lotus, Lotus/Mox, Inverter, Evolution, Oracle, Win
August 21, 2020 6:57 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #16
Man. Echo the Eons, I had no idea the card existed or passed over it. That's really good if you can get it in the grave. Offers a little bit more consistency for the deck, and plays better than Diminishing Returns as it was 2UU and exile ten off the top. Except it requires a disco and no shuffling. You're right LED is super nuts with it. But as I said, playing your opponent Force for Force no longer makes draw seven storm builds viable. There's going to be a moment as you're going off or at the end where they'll Force your gas, and you won't have a response.
The deck had always been fun goldfishing. But there's just so many cards to stop it cold.
Painters Servant control being one. With Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Force of Will and Force of Negation, spinning through your deck on 7s is just going to be a bad matchup and there's very little you can do about it. Considering SSG. A player would just let you spin 7s removing SSG along the way until they could nuke you. Then they'll grab up Grindstone and mill you out.
August 21, 2020 7:19 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #17
With Doomsday, you literally want to exile everything with an Oracle on the pile. Draw 3 cards one being Oracle and a way to cast it. She looks at the last 2 and thats it. Everything else is either reactive or proactive protection. Proactive usually being better..
August 21, 2020 7:23 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #18
Yeah, didn't think about Spoils Consultation. Tutor into those (at least right now) would be about the same as just playing Inverter.
August 21, 2020 7:32 p.m.
It seems that a few people are throwing down very heavy handed opinions without much reasoning behind it.
I know that a lot of words have been exchanged, but so very many of those words used are people virtually repeating themselves.
I think it's an interesting concept. I think the idea would need much, much more investigation before a verdict could be given.
Also, I just feel that some of the statements above are very loose and/or disrespectful to others.
August 21, 2020 7:51 p.m.
Maybe roll the tutors alongside as Jace, Maniac, Oracle, AND all the deck removal? Maximum flexibility? Sounds like quite a chaotic deck if it’s doing the Mirror of Fate + Tinker . My head is spinning.
Appreciate the level response. I’ll own my part in that mess.
The initial question posed has ended up proving fruitless as any deck’s power can only be defined through a meta. But I am interested to know to what extent balance can be achieved in such a meta. By meta representation of course. Any ideas of your own are welcome if you care to link or share.
August 21, 2020 8:36 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #21
this is one of the reasons i'm against players making their own formats. y'all be arguin over a format that you'll never play, or at least never play for prizes. so like...whats the point?
August 21, 2020 11:52 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #22
DeinoStinkus: i have other reasons as well for not liking it. i enjoy brewing as well, but i like to know its worth my time. for me that means being able to go to some sort of sanctioned event, even if its just a small one, and surprise strangers with my brew. my 5c slivers can sometimes tear it up at FNM lol
August 22, 2020 12:02 a.m.
Formats will form where there is demand. I could see UV being a digital format. Unless WOTC really looses the cannons and lifted the Reserved List classification. As far as ‘new formats’ this is really an interesting cpa Simon on existing material. As I mention in my initial post, there are no real rules changes or other such nonsense like singletons in EDH. It’s Vintage. With no Restrictions. I think having a format show off the highest levels of power helps keep power at lower levels in perspective. Mind you all power is relative to the metas of which they are apart.
DragonSliver9001 I get wanting a purpose but I think a lot of this development has to go on behind the scenes for a format to get sanctioned. I don’t know if this ever will. That would be crazy and I think a majority of players (of the format) would have to change the way they see the game.
August 22, 2020 12:10 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #24
Happymaster19: thats nice and all, but i'm not gonna be the one doing that behind the scenes development lol. i'll build decks for a format "after" it becomes sanctioned. thats what i did for pauper.
August 22, 2020 12:13 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 That’s fine. I understand. Thanks for stopping by.
August 22, 2020 12:24 a.m.
Historic means they can make digital formats. But what about Walking Ballista?
August 22, 2020 12:26 a.m.
I’m sure it could be used somewhere. I was just thinking about trying a Food Chain deck and seeing if Ballista worked as a finisher for that. Ballista makes for a great infinite mana finisher. But I guess there’s lots of decent finishers with infinite mana Blue Sun's Zenith is one I want to build around. And it’s lesser version Stroke of Genius.
August 22, 2020 1:42 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #28
DeinoStinkus & Happymaster19 i'd imagine that Mountain, Black Lotus, Channel, Fireball becomes Black Lotus, Channel, Walking Ballista.
August 22, 2020 2:03 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #29
nvm scratch that. i brainfarted. i've been exhausted all day.
August 22, 2020 2:05 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #30
Made a deck and not sure how to hyperlink it ugh. Never tried to bother with that.
August 22, 2020 11:10 a.m.
Copy the part of the URL after mtg_decks/ and put in in brackets. If you’re having trouble you can verbally direct to what you’re trying to show.
August 22, 2020 11:23 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #33
It'll take some mulligan's of course, but there's it's very effective at stopping your opponent on their turn.
August 22, 2020 11:31 a.m.
It does well to lean into that instant speed. Takes a deck that wins nearly every game it’s on the play and steals the play. Tasty.
August 22, 2020 12:48 p.m.
That was an early effort. But with Tezz being a tutor in a can, maybe it just need a control shell to buy the time needed to put them together. I was using jank like Transmute Artifact and Reshape but Tezz may be the best option. And a potential toolbox suite as well.
August 22, 2020 1:09 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #38
Fastbond UV Since its not a typical deck, it's a little bit off from fully functioning, but it's an idea for sure.
With Boseiju, Who Shelters All it makes those Force's a little unusable when you draw 7.
August 22, 2020 2:08 p.m.
How are you getting Boseiju untapped? I like what the deck is going for. I tried something with Fastbond a while back but couldn’t get anything consistent. There’s not much redundancy to build around. I’ve been trying to stir up ideas for green in the format.
August 22, 2020 2:25 p.m.
I have loaded almost all my lists to untap.in. My name there is the same here.
August 22, 2020 7:42 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #41
Ahhhh. Forgot about that. Oh well. But still, Chalice, Fastbond your hand with Boseju the kinda go off next turn. Still it's a very unrefined starting point
August 22, 2020 7:48 p.m.
Yeah. Redundancy is a huge deal in this format. That’s why one-meets-two combos are so difficult to manage consistently.
August 22, 2020 8 p.m.
I see a lot of interesting thread about Unrestricted Vintage but what about a similar format but keeping the P9 restriction? I mean, what would be THE deck? I would love to ask Stephan Menedian.
February 15, 2021 6:13 a.m.
I suppose you could do that. In theory, you can slice it however you want. I want trying to make a comprehensive shift that would create a drastically different environment than Vintage. Would an RP9 format offer enough variation between those two? I think we should start with getting a more solidified view of UV.
February 16, 2021 2:20 a.m.
You made your point and it's very comprehensive, no worries. I'm not sure RP9 would offer enough variation but if you ask me, P9 doesn't need to be unrestricted to feel that we are playing without limits. I mean, these cards are already dominant in Vintage.
But besides the many ways to create an Unrestrited Vintage, what i find very interesting is the fact that there always be metagame. Even with the most broken deck you could find. I am trying to re-make a mini tournament with some of the most insane deck we could do in UV ( With RP9) and see what would come out. ( Like Menedian did years ago. In this time, Long deck and Shop/Stax were the dominant decks.)
February 16, 2021 5:27 a.m.
I guess my question is why? Like I said, slice it how you want. I just wanted to be comprehensive. What’s the strongest deck in Vintage? What’s the strongest deck with a completely unrestricted card pool? What’s the strongest deck with these nine colloquially known cards restricted? I guess I hadn’t considered that as I hadn’t been asked that. I think the answer is Stax easily takes the format as most of the combo decks lose a lot of consistency of mana, Ancestral Recall and Timetwister . People get wrapped up in P9 and forget Stax has added a fair few member to the Restricted List. Chalice of the Void , Thorn of Amethyst , Lodestone Golem , Trinisphere , and less connected Mystic Forge . Maybe some Oko Midrange build can still be a solid contender against that but I don’t know.
February 16, 2021 11:18 a.m.
Mindbreak Trap is proving to be a really solid maindeck contributor to keeping slower decks alive. Decks with top end card engines like Yawgmoth's Bargain , and Bolas's Citadel make great use of a heavier density of counters by having a few big draw engines to give it all the gas at once rather than sequentially. Could slow and resilient be the way forward over speed and consistency? I’ve been eating more Ls from this stupid card. But I find this is probably a good thing. While I have no barrier between myself and the ‘best deck’ with Restrictions lifted. That said, to make a legitimate case for a format takes some level of diversity in the meta to attract a player base. I don’t want a deck that beats everyone all the time. I’m fine with deck winning on turn 1. But we all want a format where there is more than mirror matches. I continue to see promising signs that diversity is possible. Whether there’s enough diversity is a whole other matter. I’d like to get more stories, data, and records from the community.
March 15, 2021 5:02 p.m.
Some more decks that I’ve run into:
• Paradoxical Outcome with Yawgmoth's Bargain
• Tinker into Bolas's Citadel WITH ONLY Pact of Negation AS MAINDECK INTERACTION
• Bring to Light to cheat out Tibalt, Cosmic Impostor
• A Mystic Forge deck with Tezzeret the Seeker to go into Manifold Key + Time Vault
Here’s also some of the newer builds I have developed:
• Shiny Pebbles (UV BtL Storm)
• Strange Memes (UV Bargain Control)
March 19, 2021 12:57 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #49
That paradoxical outcome deck sounds like absolute garbage lol. What’s even the point??
Daveslab2022 says... #1
I already have a list on my page. Feel free to check it out.
You’re getting really hostile and again completely ignoring the majority of my points. I’m gonna head out.
August 21, 2020 2:43 p.m. Edited.