A Quest for Power: Unrestricting Vintage
The Kitchen Table forum
Posted on Aug. 18, 2020, 12:33 p.m. by Oof_Magic
I have spent the past few months toying around with the most powerful tools in all of Magic on a quest to find the most broken constructed deck possible. Essentially ramping Vintage up by removing the Restricted List. And so, amidst a sea of new format ideas, I bring a simple one. Vintage but Unrestricted. That’s it. No change to minimum or maximum deck size, no ‘commander/commander spell’, no new zone, nothing you aren’t already familiar with if you play constructed.
• No more than a play set of non basic lands unless a card says otherwise like Relentless Rats .
• All banned non-companions are still banned. So no dexterity cards or Sharazad nonsense (although Sharazad is probably safe). No command zone cards or conspiracy nonsense.
• All restrictions are lifted. Yes. All of them. This is meant to be the most unforgiving format. Know what you’re signing up for.
• Only scribbled basic lands count as official cards of the format. This is really just a fun guideline and not a hard rule. But who’s packing this type of heat and carrying it around. Ensure yourself with Basics Ensurance!!
I will get this out of the way quick. This is not meant to be a balanced or healthy format. This is an experiment to see how unbalanced the format is when you drop the weight of the Restricted List. Is it as unbalanced as might be assumed?
It certainly will be a coin-flip format. This sounds in bad taste but I play plenty of other games that operate on chance and I love Magic. Magic has classically blended randomness and probability with skill and intuition. Personally, I think there could be a space for a real competitive environment.
The folder below contains my experiments. You’ll see a wide array of decks. While many may focus on combo, the prison decks are not to be underestimated. In my opinion, they are the dominating force. And they are a big door in for diversity. So if you can swallow the inherent craziness that comes with such power, I think you’ll find that an Unrestricted Vintage may have far more diversity than one might initially think. The real question is whether people can get behind the coin-flip nature of the format. While it doesn’t always play out that way (as Leyline of Anticipation has made itself a pivotal player of the format), games are often decided by two things: 1) coin-flip, 2) matchup. But it can actually get more complicated than that. My wheel decks have a nasty habit of putting counters in the opponent’s hand. Just one example of how games are more nuanced than at first glance (unless you’re glancing at Stax).
Please feel free to come explore my own lists and offer any input. Most of the comments on my decks talk about the price which is why I put the fun ‘Basics Ensurance!’ rule. I want to talk decks and meta. I already know these decks are ridiculous on a wallet. So let’s talk about what we don’t know instead. Like what’s the most powerful deck possible in the context of a meta to play it in. Please share your thoughts on mine and please please please feel free to offer your own ideas. Magic has taught me that a community will root out problems faster than an individual. So join me on my quest for power as we search for The Most Broken Constructions!
I have so far found much experimenting to be needed. I have run into a promising diversity so far. I’ve seen Paradoxical Outcome in many variations. Most interestingly was a build that used Monastery Mentor and Time Walk to get around Leyline of Sanctity . I’ve run into Tinker / Bolas's Citadel builds. I’ve seen Blightsteel Colossus in control shells and hasty combo shells. I’ve seen Stax. I’ve used enchantment and D&T shells to success. I’ve seen Dredge. I’ve seen a very midrangey U/G build with Oko, Thief of Crowns , Collector Ouphe s, and True-Name Nemesis to tempo opponents. I’ve done Storm centered on Timetwister , Second Sunrise , Underworld Breach , Yawgmoth's Will independently. I’ve caught players by surprise with Mind Funeral and then been totally mismatched against a fair deck. I saw a clever take on burn capitalizing on Pyrostatic Pillar and Eidolon of the Great Revel alongside all the most efficient burn including the extra potent Galvanic Blast . I’ve seen Arcbound Ravager aggro. I’ve seen Flash / Protean Hulk in a couple different forms. I’m still waiting for a solid Doomsday deck to form.
This is my rough view of the meta as it stands: • Stax • D&T • Shops Aggro • Enchantment Prison • U/G Mid • Storm (in a dozen forms which is best being meta dependent) • Colossus • U/B Mill • Flash Hulk • Dredge
Storm is assumed to be a major presence of the format and while that may have truth to it, that obfuscates how diverse Storm can be. I’ve run into:
• Mystic Forge • Yawgmoth's Bargain • Paradoxical Outcome • Necropotence • Bring to Light • Underworld Breach • Mind's Desire • Bolas's Citadel • Collected Conjuring • Memory Jar • Yawgmoth's Will
This is just a brief smattering of some of the decks I’ve used and run against. Storm may be popular but that doesn’t mean it can’t also be diverse. Whether all of these would last is to be determined in the testing. But at a preliminary glance, I take no issue with Storm with all is diverse forms and am willing to accept that as an aspect of the format. I just gave eleven separate build around cards. Some can be used together but not all. Each provides a different way to approach the archetype. You can definitely argue that there isn’t much archetype diversity (Aggro is virtually non-existent) and I can definitely understand that claim. Frankly, I think a meta needs to exist before such claims can be made. When you cheat out an absurd creature, who do you turn to? When you play a bunch of spells, what do you end up running up to? When you run a bunch of counters? Etc. Not to mention these decks don’t all necessarily run the same finishers. Tendrils of Agony is a popular choice but I have personally utilized Brain Freeze , Molten Psyche , and Thassa's Oracle . There’s also a lot of small decisions that go into deck building and gameplay for each of these shells. Do you opt for slow mana sources (lands)? What rocks do you go with? Should I pitch to counter or spend the rocks? What do I pitch? And frankly deciding on an opening hand is a tough game in itself. People may think the format comes down to luck but if you keep a bad hand in any format, you are liable to get punished. UV just brings the punishment much more swiftly. Playing against slower decks can shift my mindset into keeping less resilient more combo centric hands. Then I get punished on the draw for thinking my opponent might just be slow rolling.
I’m sure there is a ton more work to do. Some of these decks are very meta prone. But I’m sure there’s more beyond this brief foray. I’ve been very pleased with what I have discovered so far. Mind Funeral will thrive in a Moxen heavy combo meta but will fade fast if fair decks like Midrange and Stax take over. Midrange can keep Stax in check but can fall to control. Enchantment prison can really hose combo and Dredge but faulter against D&T and Stax. There’s a lot to be done but I really like what I see. I’m not deluded into believing this is near a viable format yet but I find room to be optimistic.
I’ve definitely seen that in my testing. S.Tax (sphere tax as I’ve taken to calling it) does indeed win nearly all games it’s on the play. Is it that those games are pretty close to guaranteed victory for S.Tax that the games on the draw don’t matter change the big picture? Half the games are almost guaranteed wins? And that’s enough?
I agree that it’s the slower decks that would actually thrive. People think it’s the combo decks but many expose themselves in some way and require sequencing or setting up. The format is far more about redundancy and consistency. Going over my S.Tax list, that’s what makes it so potent. It has enough redundancy to bully through counters on the play and the pieces require no setup. But back to my original question, are the virtually guaranteed wins S.Tax is on the play enough to overcome the nearly guaranteed losses on the draw without a Leyline of Anticipation?
August 20, 2020 8:50 a.m. Edited.
Daveslab2022 says... #4
Hey man anybody can google how to play doomsDay. That doesn’t prove anything. Your profile is littered with tier 2-3 STANDARD decks. And one EDH deck. I don’t have any reason to believe you’re experienced as you say.
Even as such, I will contend that storm may not be the number 1 deck. However, my point still stands that one deck will dominate the format, over all others. There is a reason the restricted list exists.
Sure, T1 Trinisphere may lock some people out, but if it gets forced then you just wasted your chance to win the game and now my deck will end you in one fell swoop. I’m not saying my deck is THE deck to beat, but that deck will look similar to mine. Whether it wins via storm or some other way is irrelevant.
And all of this is completely ignoring the fact that this would be a stupid coin-flip format. Whoever goes first wins. Whether you’re playing Trinisphere, the god awful Root Maze or 20 Moxen and storm cards.
August 20, 2020 10:40 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #5
Here is the reddit community having this discussion from 2 years ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/8sk1dp/what_would_vintage_look_like_if_there_was_no/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=comments_view_all
Most of the comments say some form of Storm, and all of the comments agree it would be a turn 1 format.
August 20, 2020 10:42 a.m.
You don’t have to be on board with the format. If you’re the Pioneer player your page suggests, I can understand wanting a more sluggish format. But then why are you here? There are certain assumptions of the format that should be understood. If you don’t like them, don’t play it. Pioneer killed off combo entirely and sought to do so from the beginning. Nothing wrong with that but that’s not what I’d like in a format. I don’t spend much of my time nowadays demeaning the format. If the idea isn’t worth your time, you don’t need to fool yourself by entertaining it. I know the Restricted List exists for a reason but so does Legacy. Is it terrible to wonder what things would look like going the other way? Whether you like it and whether it’s valid are separate matters.
Did Caerwyn ever get back to you with results from my recommendation?
August 20, 2020 12:22 p.m.
Matches in almost all tests were decided by a coin flip. Players “won” the game on their first turns - either by combining off and winning, or locking the other player out, effectively winning but without the game actually ending for a while.
The only exceptions were games where the second player could Force of X the first player’s turn.
The conclusion: Every deck in the format must run 8x Force of X and a sufficient number of Blue cards to effectively cast said Forces turn 0. Otherwise you run the risk of winning the mostly determinative coin flip but lose overall.
So, yes, your decks can win (or effectively win) turn 1; but there’s no reason to play them when you could be playing something which also wins turn 1, with the added advantage of having to do fewer mulligans to find cards for turn 0 counterspells.
This tracks with the goal of the Restricted List - restricting any and all cards that turn Magic into a coin flipping contest.
August 20, 2020 12:44 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #8
Yes, I prefer the pioneer format. I’m not sure how that’s relevant.
I started as a standard player during KTK standard, bought into modern after Magic Origins, played modern until I realized it was incredibly stale (U/r Twin was the deck to beat), then I actually sold completely out of magic.
I don’t own any paper cards as of right now, but I’ve been following the magic scene, for all formats.
I’m not sure how this is relevant. Or what it has to do with my arguments.
Yes, pioneer killed of combo but I’m here on this thread advocating FOR combo.
August 20, 2020 12:54 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #9
i once played in a game in an small "anything goes" tournament, which i thought would be something like this. i saw "anything goes" and i immediately thought "vintage with no restricted cards or banned cards".
turns out it was quite literally "anything goes" and my very first opponent had a deck of 60 Chancellor of the Dross.
August 20, 2020 1:06 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #10
So did he end up winning? Lmao that’s 21 damage from opener haha
August 20, 2020 1:10 p.m.
Daveslab2022 It was relevant for you to criticize defamagraphy1 profile. I guess I was pointing out that bringing up def’s page is also irrelevant. I have made no judgements of merit here based solely on one’s page.
You don’t seem to be advocating for combo as a healthy element of the format. You appear to be advocating for why combo invalidates the format.
Caerwyn Are you familiar with prison as an archetype? What distinguishes it from control, yeah?
Legacy is where you go when you don’t want to lose to coin flips. Vintage is where you go if you can tolerate a small dose of that. This format is where you go if you can tolerate that on a fundamental level. Which you don’t have to. If you aren’t on board with the assumptions of the format, you can always seek its watered down versions. For those that are interested, I think there is a real space for potential diversity even in a hostile turn 1 format. It’s a completely different type of Magic that not everyone has to enjoy (though I’m certainly trying to emphasize that it could be open to all).
I’m curious how my recommended enchantment list fared specifically against your collab. It was all coin flip? Did you test the swap of Leyline of Sanctity?
DragonSliver9001 That made for a great laugh. Thank you. Wow. Just when you thought Unrestricted was busted.
August 20, 2020 1:34 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #12
Just because I said I prefer the pioneer format doesn’t mean anything. I have several modern decks on my page. I think one legacy. I could be wrong. But yeah he has like 40 standard decks on his page. Mine is well-rounded.
August 20, 2020 1:42 p.m.
Maybe bring a deck of 60 Providences and always go on the draw?
August 20, 2020 1:44 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #14
Well then you would lose. Neither of you can cast your spells, and you drew first so your library runs out first
August 20, 2020 1:47 p.m.
Leyline of Sanctity was a great way to stop storm on your first game, if you happened to mulligan into it. Game 2+, Storm would just sideboard in something that could remove leyline, happily do their thing, then remove Leyline and win the game.
Wizards likes it when playing Magic determines who wins a game of Magic, not games where the opening coin flip and whoever got luckiest with their mulligans creates a predetermined outcome.
August 20, 2020 1:53 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #16
Happymaster19 yeah i'd still lose lol. but i'd never touch that "format" with a 10 foot pole again anyway.
August 20, 2020 1:54 p.m.
Both of your pages matter equally to me. Which is little. I’m here for the discussion. What you tell me about your decks will likely be more accurate than what I would intuit or assume. Mentioning each other’s pages doesn’t contribute to that. You can take your misgivings to him directly.
You’ve conveyed your dislike for the idea of the format. If there are people who are okay with such a hostile environment, why do you need to tell them their wrong? Why am I told that I refuse to listen but that my non-Ancestral Recall decks aren’t given a chance, not listened to. Don’t come into this telling me I have to believe your presumptions when you explicitly state you won’t consider mine. That persuades no one. I can’t hear about how my door is closed through your closed door. Don’t tell me I’m definitively wrong without bringing me data.
If you don’t like the idea, you can leave. If you want to debate it’s validity, stick to data. If you think you’re right, prove it. Thank you.
Had the play backwards about Providence. Yes, go first and kill your opponent to death in the slowest way.
August 20, 2020 1:59 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #18
Daveslab2022: yeah he won the game, and i immediately left without finishing the match. but not before giving my opponent and the tournament organizer a piece of my mind. it didnt have an entry fee thankfully. it was just some average joes at an anime convention. but to me it seemed quite obvious those guys knew each other. because who builds a deck of 60 Chancellor of the Dross without knowing in advance they'll have an opportunity to use it?
August 20, 2020 2:05 p.m.
Caerwyn I don’t care about what Wizards does or supports. I’ve been off of them for a long time now.
You told me not to be nebulous about my choice so we could avoid the ‘bad matchup argument’. It sounds like I’m getting the bad matchup argument. So you’re saying a deck with maindeck Leyline performed well against the collab? You can say that the Storm deck would get enchantment removal but if you want to speculate about having cards in hand like Daveslab2022 about forcing Lavinia, well the enchantment deck can back up Leyline with Deafening Silence and Arcane Laboratory, along with its own counters. So it seems the enchantment hate plan would need testing. Especially considering the effect on consistency vs redundancy. Can mulliganing down to your enchantment hate fight the redundancy of hate (and counters) from the enchantments?
August 20, 2020 2:06 p.m. Edited.
I did not say it was a bad matchup--a bad matchup is one where one player's deck has a distinct advantage over another in most games.
Relying on Leyline being in your opening hand so you can stop the inevitable prevalence of Storm isn't a matchup - it's a gamble.
The rest of your point, unsurprisingly, once again misses my point. "Look, I can win if I go first and you do not happen to have a Force of X in your hand" is exactly why this format isn't just "hostile"--it's just rolling dice with a slightly longer method of reaching a predetermined outcome.
That's not a format; it's a casino game.
August 20, 2020 2:13 p.m.
That deck had much more than just Leyline. But spinning for Leyline sounds like spinning for Bazaar of Baghdad. And that already happens.
That last sentence. It’s all about perspective. You may not like it but why are those who might wrong?
August 20, 2020 2:34 p.m. Edited.
DragonSliver9001 says... #22
Happymaster19 i dont think anyone is saying you're "wrong" for liking games that come down to a coin flip, merely stating that that's what will happen
August 20, 2020 11:23 p.m.
I mention as much at the top. And I think ‘coin flip’ is also oversimplifying it.
August 20, 2020 11:34 p.m. Edited.
DragonSliver9001 says... #24
Happymaster19: try downloading cockatrice and playing a few games against some of the other guys that have been commenting here. i wouldn't mind spectating.
August 20, 2020 11:36 p.m.
I would like to. I guess that’s not an iPhone thing or supported by Apple. Is it just a site or an app?
August 21, 2020 12:17 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 I believe I found it. I need to transpose my lists but that shouldn’t take too long. I don’t know how to go about it from there but I will repost when I have my lists loaded in. Thank you.
August 21, 2020 2:31 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #28
Happymaster19: np. just be careful of cheaters. unlike mtg arena where everything is automated, cockatrice is completely manual. players can move any card any time. i once played against a guy who tried to tell me that the "doesn't untap" effect of Grimgrin, Corpse-Born "only applied once". and he kept untapping it every turn.
August 21, 2020 2:36 a.m.
Oh dear. Well the deck still shuffles proper, yeah? Seems like the rest is just knowing your cards.
August 21, 2020 2:55 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #30
Been playing standard as years ago I sold my vintage pieces. I rather enjoy standard as that's been my go to for years and years. I'd be happy to refer you to the shop that still has both my Ancestral Recall and Mox Jet if you're interested.
What I'm currently working on or my profile doesn't necessarily show my experience in mtg.
Or things like, my own black/white deck what would now be called Midrange during standard Mercadian Masques/Invasion block when the first enemy pain lands dropped. It decimated Fires decks. Go on I'll give you a minute to try and find what I'm talking about, I can even give you a list as no one played it. I know it by heart. It doesn't prove how I quit during Odyssey block as they stopped printing Dark Ritual. It doesn't prove the cards I owned as I had at one point a sealed box of from the vault exiled that I bought at msrp. (Since I had played vintage and all) Or buying the crap out of Mirrodin to have 8 Aether Vials selling them at a dollar each before realizing years later the price jumped. Or seeing the first release of planes walkers in Lorwyn. Or the fact that I had no idea how to abuse Necropotence when I started playing MTG with mono black discard.
But please judge me by my profile.
Secondly, let this guy have his idea. I wouldn't say it's neccessarily functional, but with playing those decks on winning on turn 1 I feel as though you're merely goldfishing them...
Not knowing the format, when to mulligan or better yet, what exactly to build, or play against, or even what to include in your deck to stop something that trumps you shows you cannot judge this idea.
Sure its going to come down to a coin flip sometimes. It's vintage. But did you play against a deck that slows opponents to a grinding halt? Most likely not. Or the fact that you might need a blue spell to resolve to keep going and your opponent just pitched ssg and pyroblasted it and you've already forced or have none.
Just disagree and move on.
I think I'll do the same as it seems youre one of those last word guys that just like to shut down ideas.
PS. If I judged you by your profile, you wouldn't have an inkling here either so it kinda makes all your points moot.
August 21, 2020 7:47 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #31
Lol you think simian spirit guide is a playable card in this format?
Haha I’m done here.
August 21, 2020 8:15 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #32
Let me add a little further proof.
4x Spectral Linx 4x Phyrexian Scuta 4x Voice of All 2x Desolation Angel
4 Phyrexian Arena 4 Dark Ritual 3 Duress 3 Gerard's Verdict 3 Death Grasp 4 Vindicate 4 Wrath of God 4 Caves of Koilos 10 Swamp 8 Plains
How about Cephalid Breakfast? Know what that is?
Or that fact that I used 4x Dread Return, 1x Blade Wing the Risen, 1x Bogarden Hellkite and 1x Bladewing's Thrall as the win con in it.
I could keep going all day on this. And you really can't just google that stuff.
You're arguing something with a very very limited knowledge of it.
August 21, 2020 8:18 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #33
It is.
Trust me, just cause you googled Vintage doesn't mean you know everything thats in it.
There are lots of cards that trump Storm decks. And even if Vintage were unrestricted the still wouldn't play it. I'd rather win guaranteed with Doomsday than stall out with a storm deck. I've played both plenty of times to know.
August 21, 2020 8:22 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #34
Ok so lets say you build your all powerful "always wins" storm deck and you lose the die roll and your opponent goes turn one Workshop, Vault, Trinisphere, Thorn of Amethyst.
Do you even know what card to use to stop them and still combo off? I highly doubt it.
August 21, 2020 8:29 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #35
Better yet.
Let's say I win the die roll,
I go land, mox, Painters Servant, blue. Pass the turn
Are you sure you're going to combo off?
August 21, 2020 8:38 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #36
Or how about my favorite.
You win the die roll. You go first
And I go, Gemstone Caverns, SSG, (there's that unplayable card you mentioned) Flash, Protean Hulk. Dead
And all you managed to do is drop a land.
Please please please tell me how much more you know about Vintage than me.
Please tell me how storm decks would always win.
Please tell me how you're going to Force
But I literally Force your Force.
August 21, 2020 8:56 a.m.
defamagraphy1 Trolls are gonna troll. He says I just want to be right and won’t listen to advice but won’t give non-Ancestral Recall decks so much as a glance. Not much convincing someone who rejects data analysis. But the the post will always be open should Daveslab2022 change his mind.
Anyone got any crazy ideas of their own?
August 21, 2020 10:01 a.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #38
Well man,
I got on here thinking this was a cool idea. Albeit of what I saw your decks are lacking, but still its a start, then I see these guys pretty much trashing your idea and giving the old "everyone dies on turn one routine" because they've never played the format.
It's thinking like theirs that's killing it. Vintage lately is more playable than ever. But then of course he proceeds to call me a liar not once but twice.
A troll indeed, but it's enough to prove my point.
Guys like that have no business in these forums or playing MTG for that matter.
Any who, when I get the chance Ill throw your decks some ideas Happy. It's a good start just running kinda off the side or could use those cards to keep you from being stopped.
August 21, 2020 10:05 a.m.
defamagraphy1 I really appreciate it. I’m not looking for unchecked validation. I’m looking for direction. I don’t feign to possibly have the cumulative knowledge of the community which is why I opened this discussion.
I think there’s misconceptions about where I’m going with this. It seems to get missed that I acknowledge the assumptions of the format (coin flip, blue dominated, combo vs prison, higher frequency of FTKs, etc). But beyond my initial post, I think people have some impression that I want this insane format sanctioned, as though casual formats (EDH) can’t exist. But I guess because UV follows constructed rules, it must demand sanctioned support. False. My post is titled ‘Quest for Power,’ not ‘Quest for fairness.’
I don’t know if Unrestricted is just a clickbaity thread name but it seems some are confusing that for Power 9.dec.format? See Caerwyn’s preliminary list in earlier comments.
Anyways, I would greatly appreciate feedback on my folder decks as well as your own thoughts and impressions of the format at large. If the community is open to it, I’m sure the collective can formulate better than individual me.
August 21, 2020 11:40 a.m. Edited.
Daveslab2022 says... #40
I’m definitely not a troll. If that’s how you view my arguments then you didn’t really want a real conversation - you wanted a “yes man” to agree with you.
I’m sorry but that’s not me.
August 21, 2020 11:52 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #41
Both the hulk deck and the cephalid breakfast deck suffer from the same thing.
Lack of blue. Sure you could win turn 1 on the draw, on my turn, but if I force your main spell you are done.
When I go first, if you don’t have that magic turn 1 hand, then I win. Because you don’t have force.
That’s the last of my argument.
I’ve provided documentation where other experienced players have agreed that Storm would run rampant. You chose to ignore that and continue with your echo chamber.
August 21, 2020 12:01 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #42
What a foolish argument. “Vintage is more playable now than ever.”
We’re not talking about Vintage, dude. We’re talking about unrestricted. A completely different format.
The reason that vintage is so playable right now is because WOTC banned the problem cards that didn’t allow for a diverse meta.
I really can’t believe I had to explain that.
August 21, 2020 12:02 p.m.
No but you literally rejected analysis based on preconceptions. I don’t need a yes man. But I don’t need a no man either. Both stymie dialogue. If you want to actually discuss the decks, your thoughts, and offer constructive criticism, as welcome it. But I personally get rubbed real wrong when I’m told no or not to do something and given no alternative. That offers nothing to the conversation and rather shuts it down. That may not been you, but that’s what I’ve gotten. I’d like dialogue rather than dismissal. I’m not gonna be called out for looking for a yes man when you’re looking for me to ‘yes man’ about Recall. You could afford to be more self-aware. If you care to cite data rather than a conglomeration of untested opinions, I’ll be open to hearing it.
I don’t know how you buy the ‘mull to Force’ argument but dismiss ‘mull to Leyline’ when ‘mull to Bazaar’ already exists.
Are you hearing yourself get worked up over explaining the Vintage RESTRICTED list? Are you talking about Shaharazade (Chulandfall), Lurrus of the Dream-Den, Chaos Orb, Falling Star, and others? Or did you mean to say Legacy banned problem cards?
August 21, 2020 12:10 p.m. Edited.
Daveslab2022 says... #44
What are you talking about? I gave you constructive criticism and you argued about whether or not Ancestral Recall was a format staple.
You tried to argue that 3 mana for 7 cards Beats 1 mana for 3. It doesn’t. With Ancestral, if I spent 3 mana, I’d get 9 cards. Which is more than 7. I’ve stated I’m not trying to be a jerk, but you refuse to even understand these simple concepts. YOU asked for advice. I provided. You said no. Not me.
August 21, 2020 12:15 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #45
not quite sure its possible to be a "yes man" about Ancestral Recall. when i think of "yes man" i think of someone who says yes to things they know are wrong. in the case of Ancestral Vision, i personally would consider it objectively wrong for blue decks to not include it.
August 21, 2020 12:15 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #46
well since i can't edit my comment, i meant Ancestral Recall, not vision.
August 21, 2020 12:20 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #47
DeinoStinkus: what are you talking about? theres a difference between liking a deck, and acknowledging whether or not its competitively viable.
August 21, 2020 12:31 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #48
DeinoStinkus: but when that counterplay is extremely common in the meta, then yeah by definition a deck that can't reliably stand up against it is bad. "own ideas" does not equal competitive. just because a deck "can" be beat, doesn't mean it can be beaten consistently, or that the decks that beat it will do well against the rest of the meta. based on all the examples so far, it really does seem like unrestricted vintage comes down to a coin flip.
August 21, 2020 1:11 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #49
Last I checked, Hulk Flash ran a mix of Mystical Tutors, Merchant Scroll, Brain Storm in 4 of at the time. And with the Karmic Guide kill, it had plenty of room to add more to run Force of Will. As literally Caverns, Protean Hulk, Flash, and both sets of Spirit Guides and Summoners Pact with the Kill set up it was about 27 cards, add in Serum Powder for 31, thats leaving 29 slots for a minimal amount of Moxen or lands and the rest in blue.
That "magic hand" as you call it, wasn't so hard to get or they wouldn't have re-restricted flash.
"Documented" From what sources? People who play Vintage or ....
The idea that you'll always start your hand with a Force is completely terrible. Guaranteed Force, a blue card, and a way to consistently cast TimeTwister, which is anywhere from 3 to 1 card, is tougher to pull off than Actually getting that Magic hand from Hulk Flash. Even unrestricted you will run out of gas at some point.
So let's go to the list from earlier, we had 20 mox, 4 Black Lotus, 4 Force, 4 Ancestral, 4 Timetwister, 4 Academy, 3 Yawgmoth's Will 17 slots left. Will you play tutors to keep going? Youre gonna need to. So let's say 4 Demonic. 13 slots left. Now you're Forced to play another Blue card because you can't really pitch those Twisters to Force, So Mystical Tutor. That leaves you with 12 pitch cards for Force. So that leaves 9 cards. You're gonna need a game ender too. So let's run 2 Tendrils, just to ensure we'll go off. 7 cards left. Which can be whatever.
Now what you must clearly be missing is that both players are shuffling and drawing seven cards, and if they're playing blue they'll obviously Force too. If they have any other free counter magic, which is very likely, you'll meet every Force with a following counter.
Thats exactly why Draw Seven Storm is no longer played, even unrestricted it would meet with the same fate, and that's too unreliable to bet on.
Now, that chance to fizzle happens more often than you think and you're passing turns now, or will have to concede.
It's why storm is barely played in the current vintage. Why would ANYONE play at minimum 9 cards and enough mana, and spells to keep going, when they can win with 1 card. Even unrestricted, people would play Oracle decks over storm.
I'm not really sure where you get info from but and perhaps its the first thought that comes to mind is storm, but restricted or not, there's very little reason or evidence to play the deck when Oracle exists and you can use cards like Doomsday to win.
August 21, 2020 2:23 p.m.
defamagraphy1 says... #50
Also, the off the top list that was mentioned here would not stand up to any decks past turn one. If you lost the flip and someone played the simplest couple of cards, even with you relying so heavily on FoW, you would completely lose. Every time. If your chance to combo off gets countered same. I believe the vacuum you speak of is the same vacuum you're trying to play a storm deck in. If its not met with resistance, your opponent isn't playing Vintage. And you won't have the room to stuff in answers to deal with said resistance.
And that's a 100 percent fact every Vintage player knows
defamagraphy1 says... #1
Typical "safe" combo plays are made on turn two. If you knew your opponent didn't have blue or drop a card to slow you down, you would duress/thoughtseize on turn one and go off the following.
There are a plethora of cards that even in an unrestricted vintage that would still make the format not a turn one good game scenario. Root Maze for example is a powerful first turn play.
August 20, 2020 4:54 a.m.