Has anybody played Judge’s Tower?
The Kitchen Table forum
Posted on Aug. 10, 2020, 2:12 p.m. by Daveslab2022
My buddy and I want to put together a Judges Tower “deck” that we can play together.
It’s a super strict format that is actually really fun. Everybody plays with the same deck, and it’s usually filled with stuff like Possibility Storm and cards with multiple activated abilities.
The rules are
Unlimited mana, of all colors, for all players. Lands still exists but they don’t really matter, more on that later.
You start with 0 cards and draw 1 card on your turn, and you must play it as soon as you possibly can. If it’s an instant that says gain 7 life, you must cast it instantly, before switching phases or anything else. You must activate abilities at least 1 time per legal target, attack on every turn if possible.
Some more nuanced rules include:
multiple activated abilities on a card you must activate the first ability if there is a legal target. If not, move to the second ability. Again, activate it 1 time for every legal target.
The way to lose is by failing to do something when you first have the ability.
When you do lose, you just wipe away your permanents, discard your hand and start over with nothing. Your opponent gets 1 point. Play to whatever number of points you want.
It seems like a mess, and it is, but it’s a ton of fun. I’ll give an example.
My first turn: I draw a basic forest. Proceed to my main phase, play the forest, and instantly tap it for mana. (If I don’t do all of this, and my opponent notices, he wins).
His first turn; he draws Banefire ALL X COSTS = 5. So he does 5 damage to me.
My second turn: untap basic forest, and then immediately tap it again, before the phase is over. My draw is a thorn lieutenant. I play it and instantly activate his ability. (I only have to do this once, if I don’t I lose)
So basically you just have to remember the rules of MTG, pay very very close attention to everything, and catch your opponent miss something.
How do you feel about this format? Have you ever played it? What cards would you want to see in a Judges Tower deck?
Im gonna tag the people I’m most interested in hearing from, sorry if that’s annoying
I have heard of this format, though never played personally. I know a few people who do play, and it seems quite fun.
Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast are solid inclusions to your list--by virtue of being similar, but very different in terms of when you are able to cast them, they make good fodder for tripping players up.
August 10, 2020 2:26 p.m.
The goal of Wizards' tower is not to win; it's to not lose. Provided the person who built the shared library did a good job, there would not be any infinite combos or anything else that could "win" the game.
August 10, 2020 2:37 p.m.
Tylord2894 says... #5
Tower is a personal favorite of mine. I have a deck built for it (here it is My Tower). I did notice some differences between your description of the game and how I was taught by fellow judges.
Namely, we use a negative points system. When you make an error, you get a point (we call them "shame points"). When you have a certain number of points (we like 3 points), you lose.
I've always played it where X values are chosen at random. Usually, we roll a d6.
August 10, 2020 2:49 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #6
DeinoStinkus nooo it’s not a casual format lol
Also, the goal is not to combo out or win. It’s to catch your opponents failing so they lose.
I thought I did post in on the forum, I’m not sure why it’s a question.
Caerwyn is more than welcome to move it to a more appropriate location.
Speaking of Caerwyn, thank you for your feedback!
Thanks for the info!! I’ll check our your tower, and are there any other rules discrepancies I missed? This was just a quick write up.
August 10, 2020 2:59 p.m. Edited.
Rhadamanthus says... #7
This thread has been moved from the "Rules Q&A" area to the "Kitchen Table" subforum. Please take note of where you're posting to make sure your topic ends up in the best place for interested users to see it and join in on the conversation.
August 10, 2020 3:03 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #9
I've played it a few times. It's the only time its appropriate to be a rules shark.
Cards that work best are cards that trigger often and can trigger on other people's turns, cards that mess with the stax, cards with wonky wording and cards that make players draw multiple cards in one turn; people can usually handle 1 cast or trigger but when they get a full grip that's when things get fun
Possibility Storm - you already mentioned this one
August 10, 2020 3:36 p.m.
Tylord2894 says... #10
Daveslab2022, there are a few rules that you didn't touch on. First, when starting a game, it is common to have players draw varying numbers of cards. I've played where you draw equal to your judge level, but what seems to be the most common method is drawing cards equal to the number of times that you've played Tower in the last few months (max of 3). Also, once you make a mistake, you have to fix that mistake by re (since you don't lose immediately).
There are some rules that you didn't touch on. All "may"s are "must"s. So, your opponent has to draw two due to Arcane Denial. Also, you share a graveyard. This is important for things like Hammer of Bogardan or Prized Amalgam. There are specific rules about what cards each player "owns" too. They can largely be boiled down to "you own cards that you moved from a private zone to a public zone."
Those seem to be the biggest rule differences. There are a lot of interesting cards to add to a Tower for various reasons. One of the biggest taboos is cards that force you to search. Since most Towers are somewhere around 250 cards, shuffling that is a pain, and you all are there to play a game, not search through a pile of cards.
You didn't mention this, but Tower is crazy fun with more players. Four to five seems to be a good number.
August 10, 2020 3:38 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #12
SynergyBuild I don’t think you understand the point of the format lol. You’re not trying to win. You’re trying to not lose. There are no infinite combos. There is no life.
It very much can be a one turn format. You can absolutely lose the first turn you take if you don’t play the card correctly.
August 10, 2020 9:59 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #13
No. You're unable to perform the action because there are not any legal targets.
August 10, 2020 10:59 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #14
True, but even just using proper tutor chains to cause the opponent to immediately lose is enough, right?
I mean, even just a card like Thassa's Oracle still wins, despite the no life quality, correct?
Like, I get the whole sharing decks making it fair, but still, it just doesn't seem fun if both players know what they are doing.
August 10, 2020 11:43 p.m. Edited.
sergiodelrio says... #15
SynergyBuild you're trying to fit this into a classic mtg format picture frame... this is something else entirely.
This format is to other formats, what juggling baseballs is to a regular game of baseball.
It's a game of rules-gotcha where you test your rules skills and lose if that skill fails. You're trying to build a deck with the most difficult rules interactions, not the most T1 OP win broken cards.
The fun is not winning by game rules, but rather by seeing other players make ANY mistake.
August 11, 2020 4:19 a.m. Edited.
SynergyBuild says... #16
Fair, but I do that in cEDH already, catching game rules violations with some of the most complex interactions, if every player knows what they are doing, the game ends when the deck is drawn out. That's boring to me idk.
I see how this could help newer players learn things like layering and old keywords and proper stack manipulation, however it just seems pretty useless for players that memorized all the rules.
August 11, 2020 9:32 a.m. Edited.
sergiodelrio says... #17
Ok, with all due respect, I believe you outright refuse to get it.
This is a judge's format for a reason and hardly fit for newbies.
Moving on from this thread, peace out.
(Disclaimer: no, I'm not salty or anything and I don't play the format)
August 11, 2020 9:41 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #18
This is definitely not a new player format. It’s all about stupid and tricky rules interactions.
Thunderous Wrath is my card drawn. I have to reveal it due to the miracle, then I HAVE to cast it for its full cost IN RESPONSE to me revealing it as a miracle. I guarantee no new player would understand that.
It’s a 250 card deck filled with insane stuff like the miracles, Possibility Storm for random interactions. Guild Feud for forcing your players to draw and play extra cards per turn. Stuff like that.
Remember -
You HAVE to do everything as soon as you are able to do so, or you lose.
August 11, 2020 9:53 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #19
I also guarantee even the best judges in the MTG world would not be able to get through a 250 card deck without losing once. Assuming they draw the same numbers of cards- that’s 125 cards you have to remember, cast/activate in the perfect order, with the perfect targets, every time.
August 11, 2020 9:57 a.m.
It is more than just "show how well you know the stack and triggers." The goal of the tower is to include as many complicated cards as possible.
Triggered abilities that another trigger might implicate--as the game goes on, these chained triggered abilities are going off left and right, so it becomes just as much a function of keeping track of what is on the field as it is knowing the rules. It also becomes a matter of figuring out what order to place your simultaneous triggers on the stack, in order to trip up your opponents.
It is about filling the deck with cards that are easy to mess up. I used the Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast example earlier. Red Elemental Blast you are required to hold onto until there is a blue permanent or spell; Pyroblast you have to cast right away if there is a permanent on the field, or, if not, the first time a spell is cast. Why? Because REB has to target a Blue spell/permanent; Pyroblast can target anything, but only has an effect if it is Blue.
It's about including cards that suddenly alter the boardstate, like Bludgeon Brawl, so you have to constantly remember to take actions that are not normal (like, say, remembering to equip every artifact you cast).
It's about including cards like Chains of Mephistopheles that both have complicated rules text, and can implicate a whole bunch of triggers resulting in a chain reaction of things that must be performed and responded to.
The person building the tower goes out of their way to create a pile that (a) has a bunch of cards with strange rules quirks and (b) interact with one another in complicated ways.
With thousands upon thousands of cards in the game, there are a lot of great options for the tower's creator to build something truly sadistic, designed to trip up even the most skilled of judges.
August 11, 2020 10:04 a.m. Edited.
WolfWitcher518 says... #21
Daveslab2022: its not a sanctioned format, therefore its casual.
sergiodelrio: so because SynergyBuild is able to point out other win conditions and potential flaws in a format, he refuses to get it? seems to me he gets it just fine, otherwise he wouldn't be able to point out its flaws. you definitely sound salty.
August 12, 2020 12:40 p.m.
WolfWitcher518 says... #22
Daveslab2022: if its not for new players, then who's it for? it's the new players that need an exercise in learning the game. how would a judge be unable to play 125 cards correctly? its not that hard. read the card, do what it says.
no offense to anyone saying they like the format, but i cannot possibly understand why you would like it or especially why it would be a favorite. sounds like a game between 2 competent players would just be a draw, and every action taken is literally pointless. a shared deck sounds especially horrendous.
August 12, 2020 12:49 p.m.
WolfWitcher518 says... #23
Caerwyn so whats to stop the deck builder from just including cards they have already well familiarized themselves with, that they know the rest of their playgroup hasn't seen before? the idea of a shared deck that only 1 person had input in building makes the format extremely one sided in favor of the deck builder. even a new player can read a card and do what it says, so i'm not understanding how "even the most skilled of judges" can slip up.
August 12, 2020 12:55 p.m.
WolfWitcher518 - As with any format where there is a single, player-created card pool (tower formats, cubes), the creator would have an advantage over other players.
As for the "read the cards" point, as others have already said, it is not that difficult to simply "read the cards" when there are a few cards on the field. However, as the game goes on, there are going to be a whole lot of permanents on the field, most will have abilities that modify how the game works or triggered abilities.
Once you are deeper into the game, there will be triggers going off left and right. Many of those triggers will implicate other triggers. A whole lot of them are going to force you to draw cards, which, in turn, forces you to decide whether you can legally cast spells.
Even at the highest levels of conventional gameplay, players sometimes miss triggers; part of the goal of Judge's Tower is to make the field so horrifically complicated that keeping track of all the triggers is nearly impossible.
August 12, 2020 1:09 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #25
Well it’s called JUDGES tower so it’s for, well, judges, mostly. The people who know the rules inside and out.
Also, your point about SynergyBuild “being able to point out other win conditions” is completely moot. Judges tower decks don’t play infinite combos. They play cards with weird rules interactions and that interact with interestingly with other cards.
Your point about “just including cards the builder is familiar with” is also moot. Because this format is specifically for very experienced players, then most of the people playing are going to be familiar with all the cards, or at least what they do.
Not sure why you felt the need to leave 4 comments disagreeing with basically everything everyone said, but it’s clear you don’t understand the format, and are not interested.
August 12, 2020 1:27 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #26
I mean, even if there where infinite combos, you don’t win by enacting one. There’s no life.
So what happens when you play Pestermite and enchant it with Splinter Twin?
Well the rules say you only have to activate each ability once per legal target. So you CAN make 1,000 pestermite tokens with haste and attack for 2,000 but that doesn’t mean you win....
Infinite life, infinite damage, infinite mana combos are completely irrelevant.
August 12, 2020 1:32 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #27
Daveslab2022 Yeah, I know how instants work, and how miracle works! I never said I didn't get it. Thanks for telling me though, however yeah, it could be complex to people that don't get priority being held. And, yes, I do believe that the 'best judges' is a vague enough term that I doubt it particularly matters, however I doubt without a time limit that at least most every player with knowledge of layering, priority, and most every card in the game should be fine as long as they aren't worrying about wins/losses and instead are worried about the rules they should be pretty much able to run through any 250 cards pretty easily.
Again, I did spend some time playing with this list for context: https://scryfall.com/@BeanKernel/decks/917e2948-7576-4d44-87b1-e27c121631c2?as=list&with=usd
After running through what lasted (about two hours, god dang) of gameplay and setting up some proxies for the cards I didn't own, I won with no losses and only two opposing wins against my unnamed relative who I played against (They messed up on casting a couple spells with incorrect targetting after a Kederekt Leviathan) otherwise no misplays.
Now personally, I do agree this isn't something necessarily good for new players, it seems to go well for intermediate players that want to see some cool practices with weird cards, but experienced players that know the rules don't need it, and players that don't understand some basic layering, state based effects and similar rules could end up missing issues the opponent has.
Seems like a boring format for anyone who doesn't mess up a lot and wants to improve, and seems like a boring format for people that even do like that as they can just study the real comprehensive rules. Memorization is key, and this format doesn't help a ton with that.
August 12, 2020 2:07 p.m.
WolfWitcher518 says... #28
Daveslab2022 i do understand the format. none of my points are moot. not every experienced player can be familiar with "every" card. to say that "judges tower decks don't play infinite combos" is just false. the fact is they CAN. a player can CHOOSE not to, but so far, nobody has stated any rule that such lines of play are not allowed. SynergyBuild was pointing out that those combos are in fact legal lines of play. infinite life is irrelevant when some combos don't even involve life. SynergyBuild has already pointed out such combos, yet you willfully ignore them.
August 12, 2020 2:15 p.m.
WolfWitcher518 says... #29
Caerwyn: i can "maybe" understand missing a trigger (although i myself only miss triggers when im either seriously blazed or in deep conversation with a friend over a casual game.) but not the "deciding to cast legal spells".
August 12, 2020 2:18 p.m.
WolfWitcher518 - Lots of JT decks are filled with effects that draw you cards, so you are constantly filling your hand with spells that you need to cast. Like with triggers, it can be easy to mess up the casting requirements by virtue of how much is going on. This is made a bit more complicated because you have to make decisions that you are not used to making. Have an empty stack with a permanent in your hand and a number of counterspells? Your action is to cast the spell, hold priority, then bombard your own spell with counters. All the while, there are going to be on-cast triggers going off for each spell, which might force you to take other actions.
Though not in the rules, I think it most commonly is played that you are not supposed to hesitate in making any of your decisions, so you do not have time to really think about all the idiosyncrasies of any given card.
Think of it like the childhood game Concentration 64. At first, it is easy to list "Animals" (or whatever the category might be) without hesitation or repeats. However, as the game goes on, that task becomes increasingly difficult.
August 12, 2020 2:37 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #31
So at first you said “seems like a turn one format ngl” and completely misunderstood the point, now you’re saying you’ve played it before...? Make up your mind lol, because that doesn’t add up.
Again, sure you could activate an infinite combo. Too bad it doesn’t actually win the game or do anything relevant.
Why are you being willfully obtuse?
Is there a way to ban this troll?
August 12, 2020 2:44 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #32
You definitely have time to read the cards you drew and decide if any of them have legal targets.
You would not lose until you say “move to my main phase” and didn’t perform all legal actions.
I’m not the best at explaining things haha
August 12, 2020 3:26 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #33
WolfWitcher518 @ your post mentioning me:
LOL. You have perfectly described the misunderstanding. There are no other wincons. The only game winning conditions are
1) a rules mistake by others
2) concession of other players
It's just frustrating explaining to someone that water is clear, but they insist it's blue and also they'd prefer if it were green.
Ok, ok, this was definitely my last post for this thread.
August 12, 2020 5:32 p.m. Edited.
SynergyBuild says... #34
Daveslab2022 I hadn't played the format, and misunderstood it, then I retested the format, played it properly with a family member, and didn't enjoy it, not saying it is bad, just not for me.
I played it within the time of my comments, that's why I spent the time, didn't respond until I finished testing a couple games.
Sorry if I didn't make it clear, but I don't see myself making mistakes very often in this format, but maybe once every few games. Going through 125+ of the most "complex" cards for the best judges should be easy, if by best you mean most talented at memorization, rather than most understanding, still talented, best at verbalizing, etc.
August 12, 2020 6:07 p.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #35
SynergyBuild you should try it with multiple people. Getting people to slip up makes it so much more interesting. I tilted this new guy that came to the store by using Donate gave him a Soul Warden and let the triggers do the rest :) forcing other players to draw cards is also a cool strategy. We had the rule of 6 so I'd always Blue Sun's Zenith someone else for 6 and it never failed that they'd screw up something.
August 12, 2020 6:16 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #36
Basically, don't make it all about your level of play and memorization. Try and knock people out by forcing them to do more it'll make it much more amusing.
August 12, 2020 6:17 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #37
I mean, that is still level of play, right? You just memorize what they are meant to be doing too, and if they differ, get a point.
August 12, 2020 6:26 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #38
Sort of. It's basically rules sharking but making deliberate plays that put the responsibility of remembering triggers and performing actions on an opponent; you just get to sit and watch and point out what they do wrong. Add in some shots and you have an excellent drinking game:)
August 12, 2020 6:37 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #39
TypicalTimmy I love the theory behind it! Yeah, honestly what a great way to wrap this up, however I do think a format of two players just tossing cardboard ending up where the game always is a draw is boring, and I think having a format where skill leads to more interesting games. In this format, it means a draw every game after tossing 250 cards around. It gets more boring the more skill.
August 12, 2020 7:21 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #40
This format relies on skill equally as much as any other format. I don’t know why you aren’t understanding this lol.
August 12, 2020 7:26 p.m.
How about the rule that whoever runs out of cards in their library loses? Then, forcing other players to draw cards would actually be useful!
August 17, 2020 3:07 p.m.
Darkness1835 says... #43
This is certainly a unique way to play. MTG has always been about knowing when to hold onto or use certain cards for maximum impact, and this format turns that on its head. I've not played this format but it seems to me a bit like it takes out the strategy involved in regular Magic, where the players are now simply rule-ogreing instead of thinking strategically about their gameplay.
Daveslab2022 says... #2
Oh and you have unlimited life. The only way to lose is by failing to do something immediately when you can.
August 10, 2020 2:14 p.m.