Will WotC Eventually Print an Artifact Version of Tolarian Academy?
General forum
Posted on July 14, 2021, 8:09 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
WotC finally printed a creature version of Gaea's Cradle in the form of Circle of Dreams Druid , which, despite requiring a payment of mana to be used, is likely to be much more versatile than the cradle, due to counting itself for its mana production.
Therefore, I am wondering if WotC shall eventually print an artifact version of Tolarian Academy , since such a card would also have a benefit over its land counterpart due to counting itself for its mana production.
What does everyone else say about this? Will WotC eventually print an artifact version of Tolarian Academy ?
RNR_Gaming says... #3
The only issue with academy was that it was a land. I could see a creature with ability but itd probably be 4-5 mana for balancing purposes and not have haste.
July 14, 2021 8:21 p.m.
wallisface says... #4
I personally don’t see them doing this, purely because artifact interactions have a much narrower window of design before becoming busted. There are already a horde of cards that would make it go infinite, if it were an artifat. However, i don’t think the card would necessarily be broken, assuming the creature was 3 mana to cast, not an artifact, and only providing colourless mana. I still don’t see them printing it though, tbh.
You also mention Circle of Dreams Druid having a benefit for mana production, but in reality this card is significantly, significantly weaker:
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being a creature instead of a land, it is susceptible to being countered or killed much easier.
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being 3 mana to cast this heavily restricts its viability in multiple formats, and decks.
July 14, 2021 8:27 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #5
WOTC has been printing old effect onto creatures. Cabal Therapist is the only one I can think of rn, but I believe that they are doing this to give some more counter play to these kinds of effects. I do think that they may print a creature with that effect, but I think Urza, Lord High Artificer is the closest we’re going to get anytime soon.
July 14, 2021 9:41 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #6
wallisface, but the druid, as a creature, is also easier to cheat onto the battlefield and reanimate from the graveyard, which seems to be a fair trade, in my mind.
Also, if a creature with the ability of Tolarian Academy was not an artifact itself, that would defeat the entire purpose of printing such a card, because it would not count itself for generating mana, which the druid does.
July 14, 2021 9:58 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #7
DemonDragonJ Cradle is THREE ENTIRE MANA less than the Druid. It isn’t affected by summoning sickness. It triggers landfall. It doesn’t die to most removal. It doesn’t cost triple green (a downside that makes the Druid mostly unplayable out of mono-green. It’s a much better card in ALMOST a every scenario
July 14, 2021 10:19 p.m.
If they ever did, it would resemble Nyx Lotus and Cabal Stronghold in how they balance the ability and how useful it is.
July 15, 2021 12:03 a.m.
wallisface says... #9
DemonDragonJ, yeah my sentiments mirror what Omniscience_is_life already said just above.
Outside of maybe standard, i’m not expecting any competitive formats to be using this creature, at all. But Cradle does see use in the formats its allowed in, and you can bet that if Cradle were printed into many of the formats it’s not, it’d probably receive the ban-hammer within months.
July 15, 2021 12:05 a.m.
wallisface says... #10
Also, I agree with Daveslab2022 that Urza, Lord High Artificer is likely the closest we’ll get. That card is already stupidly powerful and causes a great deal of grief, on its own.
July 15, 2021 12:08 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #11
Xenagos, the Reveler already was a Gaea's Cradle on a stick, and nobody ever got excited over that. Circle of Dreams Druid 's biggest hype is being an Elf, for untap shenanigans with Wirewood Symbiote and the like.
I guess a Tolarian Academy -artifact would probably look a lot like Nyx Lotus , counting artifacts instead of devotion. Even then, I don't expect one in a Standard set the upcoming year, they've printed way too much Treasure Token generation recently to risk even a watered down version.
July 15, 2021 12:51 a.m.
Grubbernaut says... #12
It's not even close; a land that taps for multiple mana is WAY stronger than a creature that does, in a general sense. There are certainly combos with creatures that can't be done with lands, but those are combos moreso than raw utility. The only "requirement" for Cradle is playing the cards out that your deck was going to play anyway, which isn't a cost so much as a deckbuilding consideration.
A better question is: with artifacts already so incredibly strong, why would they ever consider offering them something that does the thing they already do best (fast mana) even better? What does the game stand to gain?
July 15, 2021 10:40 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #13
Grubbernaut "A better question is: with artifacts already so incredibly strong, why would they ever consider offering them something that does the thing they already do best (fast mana) even better? What does the game stand to gain?"
Well that's easy to answer, lots of cards are printed whose only function is: "hey, remember this broken old card that was really good in other formats in the past? Wanna play with it again?" Like Prime Speaker Vannifar is referring to Birthing Pod , Gilded Goose being a warped Birds of Paradise , Growing Rites of Itlimoc Flip as Gaea's Cradle , every Magus of the XXX ever, etc.
Nostalgia sells packs.
July 15, 2021 2:04 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #14
You're not wrong, but not one of those is close to as good as Academy. And if it was put on a stick that was also an artifact, that's a recipe for problems unless it's significantly overcosted, IMO.
July 15, 2021 3:58 p.m.
Kazuhahaha says... #15
plakjekaas: no offense, but he said "even better", but then in all the examples you mention, the new card is worse. Prime Speaker Vannifar is a worse Birthing Pod , Gilded Goose is a worse Birds of Paradise . instead imagine a better birthing pod or birds.
July 20, 2021 12:39 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #16
Kazuhahaha none taken, but please be reminded that my answers should be placed into the context of the whole topic, not just the previous post. OP's original suggestion was about if WotC will ever print an artifact that relates to Tolarian Academy the way the new Circle of Dreams Druid relates to Gaea's Cradle . You're not going to convince me that the druid actually does a better job cradling than the cradle, only because it's a creature itself. In that light, responding to Grubbernaut asking why they would ever print a card similar enough to Tolarian Academy to draw the comparison, my answer was: they'll print a worse version that obviously nostalgically reminds of Tolarian Academy that won't break any format due to some costs or restrictions. You know, the way The Biblioplex is not quite Library of Alexandria .
July 20, 2021 7:27 a.m.
Kazuhahaha says... #17
plakjekaas: i place your answer into the context of the specific question you're answering. you're miswording grubbernauts question by saying he asked why they would print "similar" cards. he didn't ask that. he asked why they'd make a "better" one. i wasn't trying to say druid is better than cradle. but saying "they'll make a worse one" is not an answer to "why would they make a better one?"
July 20, 2021 12:10 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #18
And what was the context of "better" there? Better fast mana than creatures does? Better than Academy itself? What Grubbernaut was afraid of, was an artifact that taps for mana for the amount of artifacts you control. Because that makes artifact ramp better than it already is, probably better than it should be, considering how much Academy is restricted and banned in every format right now. And he asked why they would print such a card. A card that does better, not a card that is better. Because they still shouldn't.
That was the question I was answering, related to the original Cradle-Circle Druid. The reason they'd print a card like that, is the same reason they printed Nyx Lotus in the revisit to Theros, after printing Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in the original block. "Hey, 'member this card everyone used to play?" "Oh I 'member, now I need to buy that"
The power level of the card they'll print does not matter, because that's not the reason it would be printed. The only power level that matters is that of the card referenced, because that will be the reason people will want one. The reason the new one is worse than the original is the only reason they can print it in the first place. But if the effect is memorable enough, people will buy & try again.
So I'm sorry I didn't open my answer with "they won't, but..." I thought that was implied when you'd follow the whole topic, not just the exact bit of text I copied and read that as gospel.
July 21, 2021 12:21 a.m.
Kazuhahaha says... #19
plakjekaas: 1. tag the person you're talking too 2. again, when you answer a question, you answer "that" question, not previous questions. 3, when someone asks why wotc would make a better version of a powerful card, it doesn't make sense to say "they'll print a worse version". thats literally saying "they'll want to print a better version because they'll print a worse one". so yeah, you do have to start with "they wouldn't". don't strawman an argument by using words like "gospel", especially if you can't even use the word in the right context.
July 21, 2021 12:28 a.m.
Grubbernaut says... #20
Read the guy's comment history. He just likes to argue.
July 21, 2021 12:36 a.m.
Kazuhahaha says... #21
Grubbernaut: false. don't be upset just because you misinterpret what i type.
July 21, 2021 12:47 a.m.
Kazuhahaha says... #22
Grubbernaut unless you meant plakjekaas likes to argue, considering i'm actually on your side on this thread and plakjekaas couldn't accurately answer your question.
July 21, 2021 12:48 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #24
You're right, I might not have used gospel the right way. Let's analyze. So the question I copied was:
"A better question is: with artifacts already so incredibly strong, why would they ever consider offering them something that does the thing they already do best (fast mana) even better? What does the game stand to gain?" (Emphasis mine)
Where does it say that the card itself will be a better version of anything? Grubbernaut is talking about "doing the thing they already do" being better. An artifact for that would read: ": add for each artifact you control" would still be an artifact that does the things artifacts do even better. Because Tolarian Academy is banned in most formats, even an overpriced artifact that does exactly the same as Academy does the thing already better. Prime Speaker Vannifar does the pod thing better, since you're not even paying for activation, just . A card that does better does not equal a better card.
So I apologize for using the word gospel wrong, however historically, lots of battles and wars have been fought in the name of gospels that were mostly messages of love, so I stand by the comparison. You didn't even interpret the question right, even when you're defending it so valiantly.
July 21, 2021 12:51 a.m.
Kazuhahaha says... #25
plakjekaas: not interested, especially if you're not tagging me. if you don't "really" want me to read all of that then i guess i won't.
July 21, 2021 12:53 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #26
Yeah, I've never met someone who actually enjoyed pedantic semantics the way I do. If you're quitting defending your point because I refuse to play by your rules, you're proving you're not as invested in the argument, and more invested in conflict, like Grubbernaut tried to tell me.
Or you're abandoning ship because you see you were wrong, which is probably a good call '^^
July 21, 2021 1:50 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #27
This question is slightly off-topic, but why is it that Birthing Pod and Prime Speaker Vannifar can use their abilities only at any time that a sorcery could be cast? Did WotC decide that those abilities would be too powerful if they could be used at any time that an instant could be cast?
July 21, 2021 9:29 p.m.
wallisface says... #28
DemonDragonJ instant speed opens up a lot of abuse options. For starters, it’d let you block attackers without any repercussions (before damage you just sac & upgrade your creature). They probably wanted to stay away from these effects abusing stall-tactics
shadow63 says... #2
We got the flip version in ixialn Storm the Vault Flip
But I just don't see us getting a version of the academy that's playable unless its broken. Itd have to be 4cmc or more
July 14, 2021 8:20 p.m.