Why Do Some Players Dislike Mana Rocks that Cost More than 2 Mana?
General forum
Posted on Dec. 23, 2021, 10:41 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Recently, I have noticed that some players seem to dislike mana-generating artifacts (also known as "mana rocks") that cost more than 2 mana to cast, so I wish to discuss that subject.
I certainly appreciate the value of mana-generating artifacts that cost 2 or less mana, such as Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, Mind Stone, Thought Vessel, or Mana Crypt, but more expensive mana rocks, such as Commander's Sphere, Chromatic Lantern, Hedron Archive, Thran Dynamo, or Gilded Lotus absolutely can be useful in certain situations, and I have the experience to say that. Too many players seem to be thinking of mana rocks in the same way that they think of sources of temporary mana acceleration, such as Dark Ritual or Seething Song, when their true use comes from their ability to be used repeatedly over the duration of a game.
What does everyone else say about this subject? Why do some players seem to dislike mana-generating artifacts that cost more than 2 mana?
Omniscience_is_life says... #3
Copy pasted from my answer to your same question a week ago:
Since you have to play it on turn 3, a turn later than say Three Visits or Nature's Lore, and 2 later than Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves, etc, you'll end up having 5 mana on turn 4 instead of 5 mana on turn four and also 4 on T3, or 3 on T2 as well with the one-drops.
In addition, playing a rock on T2 means your T3 is MUCH more explosive--you can, for example, play a Smothering Tithe, Sneak Attack, or Anointed Procession. With a 3-drop rock, that same turn is instead just you playing out the rock. Which puts you leagues behind the player who went Signet>Bomb.
December 23, 2021 10:54 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #4
Omniscience_is_life, I did not ask this same question, before; I asked a similar, yet different question.
December 24, 2021 12:03 a.m.
FormOverFunction says... #5
I understand that two mana is cheaper than three, but honestly on turn eight while you and your magic friends are drinking energy drinks and talking about movies that mana rock will help you cast that third spell that you needed to do something weird...so I guess I would recommend you throw it in there. If it fits your deck’s theme, that is ;p
December 24, 2021 12:04 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #6
DemonDragonJ while you're technically correct, your question was so similar that I literally did not have to change my answer at all.
Ultimately, though, what a couple people on this thread have already said or alluded to is right: commander is a casual format that doesn't always require you to make the "right" play. In the end, play whatever keeps you in the same general power level of your buddies and you'll be making the correct choice.
December 24, 2021 12:11 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #7
9 outta 10 times, 2 or 1 mana ramp is just better than 3 mana ramp. However, cards with expecially high utility, like Worn Powerstone for 2 extra mana, Cultivate and Kodama's Reach for almost ramping twice in one card but with really good color fixing, Chromatic Lantern the just fixes your mana woes if you happen to have them and also draw Lantern, and Heraldic Banner for token flood decks that can take advantage of that +1/+0.
It's not just going fast early on, although that is big -- if I have a 2 mana play and no 4 mana play with 4 mana open, but I topdeck a Signet, I can play both. This is especially helpful if you draw a lot of cards, which you should be doing in commander anyways. The biggest reason by far is that you can play them as well as other things much much easier, which lets you snowball quicker, on top of the fact that you can snowball earlier because you had more mana early on.
Don't get me wrong, I'd happily run Cultivate in a lot of decks, and I understand a Commander's Sphere to top out your ramp curve, but a 3 mana ramp option has to have a HUGE advantage over the 2 mana ramp option, and most just don't cut it.
December 24, 2021 12:12 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #8
Empowered Autogenerator is one of my personal favorites.
December 24, 2021 12:13 a.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #9
From a competitive point of view they're not efficient enough.
Though if I were to go about building in a casual way I'd want more return on investment for 3 mana still. It's not a dislike of the cost but just giving a bit of extra mana isn't the only thing a 3 mana rock should be doing.
December 24, 2021 5:52 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #10
Omniscience_is_life, I was speaking about any format, not merely EDH.
TypicalTimmy, if only that card did not enter the battlefield tapped, it would have been amazing, but, as it currently is, I much prefer Everflowing Chalice and Astral Cornucopia.
December 24, 2021 9:32 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #11
December 24, 2021 10 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #12
DemonDragonJ you do know that literally every single 3+ CMC mana rock is unplayable outside of EDH, right? Honestly, so are most 2- ones. Mind Stone sees some Modern play, and so does Springleaf Drum I think, but for the most part "mana rocks" as it were are an EDH construct. Legacy and Vintage see some fast ramp in the form of Moxen and such, but they'd never be caught dead with a fuckin Letter of Acceptance. This discussion is purely for EDH.
December 24, 2021 11:46 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #13
TypicalTimmy, those are all excellent cards, but, at this time, I do not wish to make a deck that uses them.
Omniscience_is_life, that is your opinion, because I have been able to use expensive (from your perspective) mana rocks very effectively in many games; I will not stop you from using only inexpensive mana rocks, but I hope that you can respect my choice to use those that cost more than 2 mana.
December 24, 2021 12:09 p.m.
Maybe part of the disinclination to run 3 cmc mana rocks is that it takes an extra turn to be mana positive. Something like Letter of Acceptance which was mentioned will only start producing more than you spent on it on the fourth turn. So, it's not just slower to get on the field than something like Mind Stone but it also takes longer to net you mana and that's two different strikes against it.
Honestly, this might be an unpopular opinion, but I think mana rocks are overplayed in general. When you have turns where you don't use all of your mana, that initial investment into ramp is a wasted move. Ramp to quick combo in cEDH or something is obviously very powerful, but for a casual list I often wonder if spending mana on ramp is actually better than advancing your board and plan.
Rather than rocks I really like ramp effects like Enter the Unknown that is giving you card selection, maybe pumping a creature, and gets you back the mana you spent on the turn it comes in. It's situational, sure, but the times where it gets you an extra land untapped with upside, yep, that's pretty good.
December 24, 2021 12:23 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #15
DemonDragonJ I was intrigued by your comment, so I did a bit of digging. On Mtggolfish.com, you can look at how much a given card is played in all of the user-submitted decks on the site. So I looked at Chromatic Lantern throughout basically all of Magic's formats--it's playable in a surprisingly wide array of them, and probably the best 3-drop rock in most formats. The data is in: it's played a lot in commander (no surprise)... that's it. It's played in no decks by no players anywhere but commander (and one Vintage deck lol).
December 24, 2021 12:27 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #16
Omniscience_is_life, no need to be rude my friend ;)
December 24, 2021 12:46 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #17
TypicalTimmy you're right of course. Cardboard representations of variously-numbered magical stones are not something I should get prickly about
December 24, 2021 3:01 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #18
There's too many good rocks to justify the mediocre ones. With Fellwar Stone, Signets, Talismans, mana dorks, Opal, Amber, Petal, etc etc, the likelihood that a 3+ cmc rock will increase my odds of winning a game is lower than the likelihood that it makes it harder to win. Obviously, the more casual you get, the more playable they are - but speaking frankly, there's a reason you don't see more of them played at higher levels. It doesn't matter if it could theoretically net you more mana over the course of multiple turns if you've already lost the game. The early game is absolutely, and by a LARGE margin the most important part of a game if you're trying to win - and paying 3 mana to get 1 back out of it just isn't good enough in a format where you could be playing Oppo, a wheel, or a tutor+casting the target, etc.
December 24, 2021 8:36 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #19
My hot take Chromatic Lantern is crutch for poor mana base construction and it's full power is only realized with a handful of commenders. It's not a bad mana rock by any means but I've noticed very often players will jam it into their 3+ color decks with 0 consideration for the rest of their mana base and I love watching them brick or burn tutors just to snag it from their decks.
December 24, 2021 9:08 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #20
RNR_Gaming, I have been in numerous situations where the presence or absence of a Chromatic Lantern meant the difference between victory and defeat, for me.
And I do use inexpensive mana rocks in my decks (some of my favorites are Sol Ring, Thought Vessel, and Arcane Signet), but I also have more expensive rocks, as well.
December 24, 2021 11:13 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #21
DemonDragonJ if that is indeed the case, a helpful exercise may well be to count up all the color pips on your deck’s spells, and try and get your manabase to align perfectly with your mana needs.
Another thing that could help reduce your reliance on Chromatic Lantern is to replace mana rocks that create a lot of colorless mana (e.g. Thran Dynamo, Worn Powerstone) with cheaper rocks that make colored mana (e.g Talismans like Talisman of Conviction, Signets, and Fellwar Stone).
December 24, 2021 11:29 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #22
My general build is as follows, and let's pick on Jund, assuming EDH.
- Mana Crypt
- Sol Ring
- Arcane Signet
- Gruul Signet
- Rakdos Signet
- Golgari Signet
- Coldsteel Heart
- Fellwar Stone
- Mind Stone
- Coalition Relic
This is the more budget friendly version. If I'm building a more competitive deck, some swaps I make in place of Coldsteel Heart, Fellwar Stone, Mind Stone and Coalition Relic are the following;
And if I play outrageously high curves, like MV average +4.5, I make room for all 14. Some decks run 30+ mana sources because I have enormous plays to make and that's how I stay ahead of the game. Everybody laughs when you spend 3 turns casting nothing but rocks and dorks, but nobody's laughing when the table is cleared and the game is won on Turn 6 - turn 8.
And the nice thing is that in the event of a Cyclonic Rift, you can generally pay mana to get mana and dump your rocks on the field and keep your hand. Takes a turn to recover, but you skip discarding down to hand size.
Less colors = less signets = more moxen
I don't play 4-5 colors. Too much balancing to consider. I ran a 5c Golos God tribal deck and hated it. Could never land enough permanents to hit devotion quick enough. Ended up a sitting duck for like 6 or 7 consecutive turns, then I'd finally get a few Gods online and would be forced to hold them up as blockers.
Then Golos got banned, lololol
December 25, 2021 12:14 a.m. Edited.
RNR_Gaming says... #23
DemonDragonJ - after I stopped playing the card and just had a better land base my win rated more than doubled.
December 25, 2021 2:02 a.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #24
RNR_Gaming, I think that the lands in my decks are more than sufficient to cast all of my spells, but the lantern is still a nice backup, in the case that I would otherwise not have sufficient mana of a specific color.
TypicalTimmy, most of the those artifacts are excellent, but the fact that Coldsteel Heart enters the battlefields tapped is a fairly significant drawback, to me, since it means that it cannot be used immediately, which means that it takes two turns to pay for itself and then three turns before the player profits from it.
December 25, 2021 12:34 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #25
DemonDragonJ - always play what works best for you. Your pod/meta/play group will be entirely different than mine. I've just found the more I've played the less I've liked Chromatic Lantern the primary scenario when I want it is playing theft in order to break out of my colors but the newer theft cards already do the color conversation for you.
December 25, 2021 3:26 p.m. Edited.
Omniscience_is_life says... #26
DemonDragonJ I would avoid thinking of mana generating permanents as something that need to replace their cost quickly to be good—after all, if you spend T2 playing out a Coldsteel Heart, you’ll still have access to the mana you spent to cast it in your lands the following turn. It doesn’t help you to not spend mana you have access to, so unless you consistently play something else on T2, there’s no loss of capital such that discarding a card would be.
December 25, 2021 3:38 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #27
To your point, DemonDragonJ, I'd rather get a T1 or T2 Coldsteel Heart than a T3 Commander's Sphere. Although I dislike choosing a color with Heart. But it plays on a better curve, so I include it.
Given that Heart is a $4 uncommon that sees reprint every Precon cycle, and Sphere is a 20 cent common that also sees print every cycle, but Sphere draws a card when saced and has better mana fixing... But Heart costs less... I think it's easy to see most people prefer Heart for that very reason
December 25, 2021 5:19 p.m. Edited.
I mean, I think we can all agree at least that the deck should always be considered. There's not a ton of reason to run many rocks at all in something like elfball, where Zacama, Primal Calamity would want to ramp to the moon. These are extreme examples, but in my opinion, what your deck wants to do should always be considered. Auto including things because they are auto includes is only consistency in that it's consistently limiting.
For example, I play a Bruna, the Fading Light Meld edh deck and over time I've taken out a ton of ramp to add interaction. I would have thought that ramping out Bruna was the way to go, but it has been much better to wait to cast her into a more favorable board state. Removing threats, milling my deck, setting up, and then dropping Bruna one time to go for the win has been significantly better than rushing her out.
Each game is different and each group is unique. I feel like it's not so much what is good and what is bad, but what works. It's fun to debate better or worse and to evaluate cards vs each other, but in the end, answers are simply decisions.
December 25, 2021 5:33 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #29
Within a group, yes; but not overall. Certain cards and strategies are "just better," with speed being most important (or, the ability to slow your opponents' speed consistently). It might be worth saying "3cmc rocks are playable at the power level I like to play at," but it's hard to argue they're ever better in an open meta where any power level could be playing.
A simpler way to say it might be: decks where 3cmc rocks feel "good" are worse decks overall, regardless, and that's where the reputation comes from.
December 25, 2021 7:43 p.m.
"How come people seem to only play Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Price of Progress, but not Kamahl's Sledge or Breath of Fire? I myself have won lots of games using Lightning Strike!"
January 26, 2022 7:53 a.m.
I think it's kind of the cost of it. When there are 0 mana, 1 mana, and 2 mana options that are almost as good, and easier to get out after a wipe. There's also the idea of a good "opening hand", especially in commander, that lets you play a land, Sol Ring and then a 2 mana rock. Throw a 0 mana in there too. thats 4 cards from your 8 at the start of game. now you have access to probably 5 mana, 6 at the next turn if you play a land. How much more do you need? if you then throw down a 3 mana rock turn 1, which you conceivably could, that's 3 cards left. Hopefully you didn't start with just 1 land in hand, unless youre monocolored or coloreless in which case you might be ok. But then next turn you go to 4 cards in hand. you put in another land, play a creature or something of a board that defends or threatens hopefully, and maybe 2 with your ramp, leaving you with 1 card in hand. Maybe it's a spell or something. Instant or sorcery. You've basically emptied your hand, and i think most people would look at it as better to have a card to work towards a win con or controlling boardstate so they can find their win con, or a spell to respond to the board state, draw, or something else, with mana rocks being seen as ideally occupying the lower part of a deck's "mana curve" to enable the upper level of the curve.
There are exceptions, like in artifact decks, where untapping effects can enable infinite mana. Then, bigger rocks can be great. There are also specific big rocks land mana fixers like chromatic lantern and gilded lotus which are good in multicolored in commander, but in general they're not so great.
March 3, 2022 4:21 p.m.
While they can be strong enough, they have a history of being weaker than cheaper ones. I suspect this is because any mana rock that has a mana value of two or less is likely to be playable since a two-mana artifact that taps for a colorless mana is already close to playable.
March 8, 2022 1:55 p.m.
FormOverFunction I don't think what happens on turn eight is what's important here. Assuming you don't use any rituals or similar cards to play your mana rocks early, turns 2-4 are when the difference between two mv and three mv rocks is the most impactful, as being ahead on mana is especially important in earlier parts of a game. Many games don't go to turn eight, and when they do, each player will usually have enough mana from other sources that they won't be very affected by having more.
March 8, 2022 2:04 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #34
Skagra42 - I totally understand, and agree on that front-end focus. More often than not I'm in very casual games that go longer, so that definitely skews my view. It’s not unheard of, however, that three or four high-speed competitive decks counterspell and force-sacrifice each other into eight-turn slugfests. In those cases the super-tuning of mana rocks becomes less relevant because the fight has degenerated into something of a sticks and rocks fight in a proverbial mud pit ;p
Idoneity says... #2
I shall be approaching this from a non-competitive commander standpoint, for my opinion may then stand obdurately.
I think the main topic comes to subjectivity and applicability. Two-mana rocks beseem a greater sum of strategies, being essentially every deck. They accelerate earlier than the more costly variants—the three-mana and more options have niche upside, but sparsely enough to earn inclusion.
As ensample, I run Commander's Sphere in decks that may loop it with Sun Titan or just desire the card draw in case of a flood. I have Thran Dynamo in an artifact list that can untap it many times, as well as in a non-Green ramp list.
They have their place, but are blatantly less capable at relaying their main purpose of producing mana. Other synergies can uphold the power they bring, but little else offers home.
December 23, 2021 10:53 p.m.