New format idea: Modern Restricted
General forum
Posted on Sept. 19, 2019, 5:12 p.m. by Kavle
So I had this idea, Modern is a format that was made to use only the "Modern" card frame cards. And in Magic Origins we got another new card frame.
Now I know what your going to say, we already have frontier. Now hear me out.
What if the format was just another form of modern. Used the same banned list, but you had to start at Magic origins. All sets that are legal in modern would also be legal in this format (Modern Horizons).
Obviously there would need to be testing, but i think this is a much better start than what frontier was.
What are your guy's thoughts?
xtechnetia says... #3
Lightning Bolt wouldn't be legal in this new format. I'm afraid that's a 0/10 from me.
In all seriousness, I think the base question is, why does Modern need a different starting point? (Not that I'm saying the existing start point is perfect, but rather, why does it need to change?)
Yes, there are tons of design mistakes from older sets. The thing is, this won't ever change. As long as Wizards is creating new sets, something will inevitably go wrong, or at least not play nicely in conjunction with the card pool of the past (hello delve!). The notion that there is a "perfect" starting point where Wizards is no longer creating anything "problematic" is misguided. (We all remember the Hogaak fiasco from Horizons.)
If instead the issue is that Modern is getting prohibitively inaccessible as time passes, unfortunately choosing a new starting point doesn't solve that long term. Only rotation really solves that, because 10 years from now we'd be having the exact same discussion again. As long as a format doesn't rotate, it slowly but surely accumulates in power level and (likely) price to go with it.
This is why I'm not excited about Historic, Frontier, or any similar creation proposed by the community. They may seem accessible now because of their relatively small card pool, but over time they will become similar to Modern, a format almost alien to Standard players because of the sheer power level accumulated by taking the best of every Standard set over years and years.
September 19, 2019 5:46 p.m.
So I have a couple things that bother me personally when building modern decks.
For starters, modern may have a huge pool of cards, but the format seems "solved" as you put it. Everyone who plays modern knows that they have to include sideboard slots to fight dredge and other graveyard decks, or tron. I always include Damping Sphere and Ravenous Trap in all my sideboads. The top decks are the same 9 times out of 10. Thats why I find the format stale.
Secondly, the price of modern is getting absurd. The most receny deck I brewed for modern costs more than $1000. I know people will build decks that cost $50-$100, but to compete in the format you have to have deep pockets.
Thirdly, on sort of the same note, decks are becoming just variants of the same deck. My most recent deck i built was a variant of lantern control. It has most of thr cards from that deck. I think if a format has gotten to the point where people are just changing a few cards of a deck, the creative part of deck buiding is almost dead in the format. Waiting for a new set to gain inspiration turns me off of modern.
So I think a new format would not only bring standard players in, allowing the deck that they are losing to rotation to possibly be able to keep being played and upgraded, but make cards that are just not being played to be those upgrade pieces. It would be cheaper than modern and subsequent formats like legacy and vintage. And it would bring in some inspiration to all formats with combinations of cards no one is looking at because they aren't a relevant power level.
At least those are my thoughts.
September 19, 2019 6:07 p.m.
xtechnetia says... #5
I think the stability of Modern's top decks, while it may be boring sometimes, is actually important because of deck costs. A Tron/dredge/burn/Jund/whatever player may spend hundreds (or more) on their deck, but they do so with the knowledge that their deck has been proven over years and is relatively safe from being banned into unplayability.
The Looting ban, while probably good for Modern's health long term, is an example of how this can matter. Many Phoenix players probably bought into their deck thinking it was safe, only to have Wizards suddenly pull the rug from underneath them after they had, just the B&R announcement before, strongly implied that they considered Looting decks "fine".
In an ideal world all decks would be cheap enough that none of this really matters, but since Wizards won't let that happen, we're stuck trying to maintain formats around the reality that decks will cost you big.
More generally, though, I don't know if it's possible to have a nonrotating format where people can keep brewing new, highly competitive decks.
If we take a format like Historic or maybe Frontier (disclaimer, I know nothing of Frontier's meta), sure, Standard players can probably take their rotated deck and tweak it to competitiveness right now. But in 10 years, the format will likely look more like what Modern looks like now, and Standard players will once again have nowhere to really take their rotated decks to. Again, it's just the unfortunate reality of nonrotating formats - the ever-growing card pool means power creep is inevitable.
My personal opinion is that Wizards could consider slow-rotating Modern (for example, once every 10 years, we cut the oldest X sets), to try and maintain a semblance of the idea that Modern is a good home for your rotated Standard decks. Unfortunately, the printing of Modern Horizons suggests that Wizards is instead more interested in trying to manually shake up Modern's meta - by forcing everyone to buy cards from an overpriced set to stay competitive.
September 19, 2019 7:10 p.m.
Chandra69X says... #6
you say it starts at magic origins, but yet all the same sets would be legal. it can't be both.
as for your problems with modern:
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the format is not solved. its quite diverse actually. sure decks become familiar after seeing them a lot, but there are a LOT of decks in modern.
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the price of any format gets to be absurd. modern is actually probably the cheapest (besides pauper obviously). standard costs more in the long run because of rotation, and the cost of a modern deck is nothing compared to legacy or vintage.
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you basically just re-state point #1 here, which was already incorrect imo to begin with. not every deck is just a new version of a previous deck. this is also not something unique to modern.
as far as your format idea being cheaper than modern, i'm afraid the only reason that "might" be true is because your format wouldn't include fetch lands. you can't go off of current card prices to predict what the cost of a future format might look like. new formats drive up the cost of whatever cards end up being powerful in that format.
September 20, 2019 12:21 a.m.
Mtg is in need of a new non rotating format but I'm not sure if origins is the right starting point for it. The problem with frontier is it was all 4-5 color good stuff. It would need to be post khans block because of fetch lands otherwise this new format will just be 4-5 color good stuff. Especially after shock lands getting reprinted
September 20, 2019 1:36 a.m.
The main reason why most players feel pigeonholed into playing variants of decks instead of brewing new ones is due to having been invested in that type of deck and not so much other staples.
Standard is fine to enjoy, modern is a format built purely to hide wotc making a mistake in banning what became many of legacy/vintage's staples from anyone's budget.
You don't need a sanctioned format to try this format out, find a lgs with open table time you can setup an event for, make some flyers explaining the event and it's format (the lgs can even setup a wotc event labeled casual play). then sort out with the lgs what kind of entry fee/ payout structure they'd want (many of those steps are in the wrong order, oh well).
September 20, 2019 5:13 a.m.
Well the whole point of this post was to come up with a new non rotating format and to discuss the pros and cons of what rules we might come up with. It quickly turned into a discussion of why we don't need anoter format, or trying to dispute opinions. So if anyone after this post doesn't want to try and help, or just wants to question why, please move on. I know I'm not the only one who is looking for something new, so lets keep it proactive please.
September 20, 2019 11:37 a.m.
Now adressing the fetch land issue, if we start at origins, tarkir wont be a part of the format.
Looking at the specialty sets, i think only including modern masters is necessary, the other specialty sets have cards like balance and channel in them which would be too big of a power inclusion.
Alternatively, we could make a combination of nonrotating magic origins onward, and add in a rotating aspect of the 3 most recent modern legal specialty sets. This would be modern horizons, m17, and m15.
The formats card pool is smaller at 21 sets, but as time goes on more sets would be added to the nonrotating part, and when they release a new modern set (and they will), m15 will rotate out. So the card pool will increase, and some of the format staples will rotate keeping the format fresh.
September 20, 2019 11:59 a.m.
Ok I got origins and m15 mixed up. But it sounds like you want extended with extra steps by having that funkiny rotation
September 20, 2019 1:41 p.m.
Thay was just an idea. To be fair though the same could be said about edh. Its basically a funky casual vintage format.
But the thought with the last idea i had is that we would have standard sets going back to origins, which could revive old standard decks and create new ones for the format. And with the rotating aspect, it would add some modern staples to the format. That would make some build around potential.
This accually brings a cool aspect to the format. The more powerful cards rotate, Keeping the format mostly self balanced. Of course they would rotate slowly so testing would be necessary.
Lastly, the modern restricted was just a place holder. Been thinking about it for a while, how does Grandeur sound for a format name?
Kavle says... #2
That might work, modern was created May 19, 2011. There was 33 sets legal at the time. So all non un/conspiracy specialty sets + modern origins onward is 28 legal sets. How would we go about testing this? Make some decks with these restrictions? Upgrade past top 8 standard decks that were legal from magic origins onward? Im mostly curious because modern is becoming stale. Need something new i think lol.
September 19, 2019 5:41 p.m.