If magic made a spin-off would you play it?
General forum
Posted on Oct. 5, 2022, 3:02 p.m. by Dead_Blue_
So basically it would be just like Magic as far as mechanics with mana and card costs and rules but it would be a new series so instead of magic the gathering it would be magic the surrounding or whatever they decide to name it. NO MTG cards would be legal and it would start at a new alpha set. Would you play it?
Personally I think it would be a cool idea and I’d give it a shot
In a weird way MTG itself is a spinoff game from D&D.
Like the original intention of this game was supposed to be something for players in a campaign to do if there characters didn't have an active role that session.
October 5, 2022 4 p.m.
They tried it twice. First time it was called dual masters second time it was kaijudo.
October 5, 2022 4:01 p.m.
This was part of the original plan for Magic - it is why the Deckmaster word appears on the back of cards. There would be different “deckmaster” games that all used the same basic system, while remaining their own. None of those really came to fruition, and Magic card backs are already set, so it will contain a relic of this plan in perpetuity.
Personally, I would love not having to see characters from bad television shows, Nazi imagery, and Transformers in actual Magic. But there is a reason these things are being jammed into Magic instead - at this point, the game is so large that any spin off would likely fail to establish a foothold in the already difficult TCG market, so it is more profitable just to inundate Magic with non-Magic cards.
October 5, 2022 4:33 p.m.
Caerwyn theres nazi imagery on mtg cards? I know theres invoke prejudice. But that's not nazi stuff on that card. Still don't know how anyone saw that art and gave it the green to print on cards tho.
But anyways here's the Arabian nights card back
October 5, 2022 5:17 p.m.
I would play it. I would also directly incorporate it into M:tG if the rules are 100% compatible. Even if they changed the names of some of the mechanics, it's nothing the Portal sets didn't do already, and those were supposed to be beginner sets.
Even if WotC made a big blanket announcement saying that Surrounding cards aren't legal in Gathering decks and vice versa, I suspect the huge majority of players would either ignore that or simply make quasi-legal proxies.
Caerwyn If you don't mind me asking, are there any cards with Nazi imagery that haven't been ultra-banned and disowned?
October 5, 2022 5:22 p.m.
Presently, no there is not--but only because the card will be released in two days. Wizards' inclusion of a card that is designed to look like an SS officer, including the use of the same hat style and a similar skull and wing emblem motif, is not part of the antiquity of the game--it is a present and new inclusion to the game itself. The fact that it is in a deck with a card whose flavour text is weirdly reminiscent of Nazi ideology certainly does not help matters.
October 5, 2022 5:43 p.m.
Caerwyn I hadn't seen those yet. I can only assume that they're directly pulled in from the Warhammer 40K aesthetic, which is problematic by itself.
October 5, 2022 6:26 p.m.
You could go play Magic Spellslingers on Steam and mobile devices right now. It's okay.
October 5, 2022 7:01 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #12
legendofa Yes, The Imperium of Man are space Nazis and Wizards just straight up pulled the aesthetics of it without thought of if Games Workshop had kept problematic depictions in their game. Then again, some 40K fans don't seem to get that point and unironically think that the humans are the "good guys" without realizing that the whole thing is that there are no good guys, just various types of bad guys. Those people probably would have gotten mad if there hadn't been depictions of Imperial Guard. But it does seem weird that they purge offensive cards and then a few years later print new problematic art.
October 5, 2022 7:58 p.m.
SteelSentry says... #13
I think that's a stretch, tbh. it's not like Wizards themselves have endorsed the Imperium of Man, and I don't see a problem with letting you play as an evil faction. It's not even the first time they've done something like this; Vona, Butcher of Magan is a clear parallel to Hernan Cortes in both lore and card. New Capenna had a plethora of references to American crime, including the substance Halo which has a clear comparison to crack cocaine, and by extension the war on drugs which is a problem that is still ongoing today.
it's totally valid to be uncomfortable with Warhammer IP seeping into Magic, but it's a little unfair to shame Wizards for unrelated 40k fans supporting the Imperium when there's plenty of issues to raise within WotC themselves.
October 6, 2022 4:19 a.m.
SteelSentry - This is the second time I’ve seen you trying to absolve folks of insensitivity - and, like most apologists, your arguments are fairly poor. The reality is Wizards chose to partner with a company rife with Nazi imagery, in a game that has a large fanbase of self-proclaimed Neo-Nazis and a larger fan base who might not self-identify as Neo-Nazis, but who find the Imperium problematically compelling.
That was a choice by Wizards, and a choice that would invariably lead to Nazi imagery and text in their game - and they absolutely hold the responsibility for that decision. Trying to say “oh, but it was 40k’s, not Wizards’ art” ignores the obvious reality that Wizards choose to get in bed with 40k in the first place.
As for your other arguments - comparing the Holocaust to mobster movies (which tend to have a lack of genocide) and the genocide of Cortez (which happened centuries ago and where the Magic characters were not passed off as heroes) - are so easily distinguishable from “recent genocide where the card depicts a champion of humanity” that you should be embarrassed for having thought them to be valid points.
Which, to tie everything back to the thread itself, is all to show another reason non-Wizards intellectual property should be limited to spin-offs (if it were printed at all). Wizards can control its own lore - can paint a complex picture of Spanish-styled invaders’ first contact with a thriving indigenous culture. Ceding creative control over your primary game can cause all manner of problems - sometimes you print cards related to truly awful television, like the Walking Dead, other times you print Nazi imagery in a game where you have been trying to excise older, racist cards.
October 6, 2022 9:03 a.m.
TheOfficialCreator says... #15
I don't know that I would play a spin-off of Magic with the same exact rules. I'd much prefer them just adding the cards to the game directly, and it seems like it would cause some confusion.
Though I wouldn't mind there being more Wizards IP releases that aren't related to the MTG rules.
October 6, 2022 9:18 a.m.
I personally would like to see a spin-off game that is either using Flesh & Blood mechanics, or I think they should make an RPG. I know D&D is starting to use MTG worlds - I personally am planning on DMing a Theros campaign - but hear me out.
There will be some rules that are the same as in D&D and some similar character races but the point is to create your own Planeswalker, see what their mana alignment is, their magical specialty and adventures through the multiverse. Perhaps your character is like the Wandering Emperor of Kamigawa and can't help Planeswalking. But depending on what you choose, it can also help indicate your interactions with other Planeswalkers and NPCs. You can choose whether or not to get involved in problems on a plane, or to be the one to cause problems.
On the subject of potentially inappropriate imagery, I agree that the KKK imagery on Invoke Prejudice should never have been given the green light, especially by an artist who I think held some of those questionable views. But, and here is where the historian and lets-study-how-humans-tick side to me comes in, I find it fascinating to see how it did, why it did and why it shouldn't be permitted now. Do I agree it should stay? Hades to the no. Because I am aware of the offence it causes and questionable origins of the card.
Also, I am going to say that pure Nazi imagery should never be put on a card. What I do think is that sometimes villains need to be made obvious - why else did the original Lion King use it? Why dress Death Eaters in awesome black cloaks and ornate silver masks? It's distinctive and let's people know, "OI! You see them? Fecking run!" Or in my case, be quietly jealous about the awesome fashion sense while running away, but I digress. Should the swastika be on a Magic card? Obvi, no. Should there be a concentration camp? NO! Should there be an equally evil looking banners and creepy as shite looking buildings? Yes. Should history INSPIRE the cards? Historian in me says yes.
Why? Because real life and real people fuel better characters and settings (yes I know, writer tangent - sorry). I loved Ixalan because I could recognised the history and loved the lore. Which made it better when the dinos (my faves) beat the ever loving fangs out of those leeches. I want to have some level of grey morality and obvious villains because that is when the interesting debates and thoughts come out. I am an academic, and despite me taking a sabbatical to work on a PhD idea, I will always be one.
Also, keep any other series away from Magic. I still hate those stupid Secret Lairs. Though I love the new cards they made from the Stranger Things one.
October 7, 2022 4:39 a.m.
Ravenrose - Your own pontification tries to generalise and paint 40k in a historical light, but ignores very specific facts that distinguish 40k from your other examples. For starters, this is not a case where there are “obvious villains”, to use your words. The space Nazis, as the ones “defending” the race the player is a part of, are the closest thing to a protagonist 40k has, which by your own reasoning, should be seen as problematic.
But, as aforestated, it is not merely the imagery that is the problems - it is the player base. 40k has a large player base that are self-proclaimed Neo-Nazis, and an even larger player base who do not overtly claim Neo-Nazi ideology, but who clearly ascribe to views rooted of racial or other types of superiority. They flock to Warhammer because the most prominent faction shares their ideology - and they use Warhammer’s imagery as a dog whistle to show their political support for Nazis and to create memes about purging racial and ethnic minorities, LGBT+ individuals, women, etc.
The problem is so bad that Games Workshop has put out numerous half-hearted condemnations of the Nazi movement inside and using their game - though they have not taken any drastic steps to really alienate that major demographic in their player base.
That brings this all back to Magic. Magic’s stated goal with Universes Beyond, and specifically with Warhammer, was their desire to bring other communities into Magic, using Universes Beyond to welcome fans of other franchises into the game. By choosing to partner with Warhammer, Magic was explicitly courting Warhammer fans - which means they were courting the significant faction of Warhammer fans who ascribe to Nazi ideology.
This is not some historical symbolism used to identify the bad guys, as is the case in Lion King, Star Wars, and other franchises. This is a particularly niche case where the symbolism is of a particular problem, and that modern context makes the inclusion in Magic uniquely untenable. By printing these cards in Magic, Wizards is tacitly accepting the lore of “Nazis are fighting for you!” into their game, but that is still only a fraction of the issue. The main issue is that Wizards knew or should have known that 40k has a present and well-documented (even by its own maker) Nazi community, which Wizards explicitly chose to court by making their partnership with Games Workshop.
Now, maybe if it had been a spin-off game, that would be fine - it would have kept Magic insulated from some of the more aggressive and problematic of Warhammer’s fans, as they could not use their dog whistle cards in an actual Magic game, and likely would not make the transition to real Magic. But Wizards chose to make these actual Magic cards, and, in so doing, invited these folks to play Magic at tables with cards they identify too strongly to.
October 7, 2022 8:51 a.m.
I more than see your point and from what I have seen of the Warhammer player base - I have been doing some research as a result of this forum and some stuff I have been hearing about Warhammer players from friends of mine - I understand completely the implication of bringing Warhammer into Magic can be seen as courting the Neo Nazis amongst the player base.
But I wonder if this will truly attract the Neo Nazis amongst the Warhammer 40K crowd. Think about it: Magic is known for having players who are a little bit more tolerant of the things Neo Nazis are against. Neo Nazis also don't usually like having their beliefs questioned or dealing with "Untermensch", so why would they choose to come into a game that is full of people they view as the enemy when they can simply stay in their warm bigoted bubble?
Because if they do try and play with the average Commander group, people of that mindset are in for a nasty culture shock.
October 7, 2022 9:49 a.m.
Ravenrose - I think you are taking a very optimistic view of Magic’s player base. Look at the conversations surrounding the banning of some fairly obviously problematic cards. Go to a local game store in a rural area, especially if you are an outsider. Check out the “Free Magic” Reddit. The TappedOut discord’s meme channel. That player you run into every so often at your LGS who makes female players uncomfortable while playing. Etc.
Fantasy as a genera attracts a certain type of person who wants to avoid the reality of an increasingly-tolerant world - and Magic is no exception. Further giving them a home by printing dog whistles - the exact problem 40k has with giving those folks a safe space where they can play with figures that represent their views - is not exactly going to help.
October 7, 2022 10:06 a.m. Edited.
TheOfficialCreator says... #20
Heck, just the other day I logged onto Untap and someone had Walsh's "What is a Woman?" book cover as their premium deck sleeves...
October 7, 2022 10:23 a.m.
Reminds me of Unholy Strength... I remember when I was a kid the adults of the day condemnation of satanic imagery with the game having devils and demons in the art... perhaps the war hammer cards fit in the same boat... some people will say it's just a game/theme and others will read deeper.... but magic at its core is a "violent game" based in combat Its bound to get ugly uncomfortable
October 7, 2022 11:04 a.m. Edited.
I think you have a very pessimistic view. Free Magic is a Reddit for a certain type of person - yeah it's not surprising you find misogynistic people on there. And you're expecting seriousness and reason from a meme channel? Really? I am a female player and yes I play in an urban group of people so perhaps I am lucky - along with the three other girls there - that we haven't had the experience of people making us feel uncomfortable. But from my experience, of three different groups in two different cities where I live, I have been treated with nothing but respect by people who don't necessarily agree with me when it comes to politics and religion.
I don't doubt that there are bad eggs, but I do not believe it is apocalyptically bad.
October 7, 2022 11:34 a.m.
Caerwyn magic the gathering is game that has over a million players world wide. With any group that large there will be people of every type. Free magic is around 20k followers. Magic the circle jerking is almost 90k strong and they don't tolerate intolerance. I think your blowing the number of neo nazis who play magic and probably warhammer way outta proportion
October 7, 2022 11:42 a.m.
Ravenrose - You’ll note I did not say it was apocalyptically bad - merely that there were strong bastions of hate within Magic’s community where Warhammer’s less than savoury bunch can fester. You do not have to dig too far to find them - they come out of the woodworks on TappedOut, for example, anytime Wizards does something to promote diversity. You could say that matter is in the past and was years ago—but I bet if you made a thread asking “why were these cards banned?” you would get a bunch of folks complaining about “Woke Wizards” or whatnot (assuming your thread wasn’t just locked with a link to Wizards’ statement, since locking a thread is easier than policing a topic that, on this site, has never not turned contentious).
Here’s the thing, even if you have had fine experiences - like never seeing TappedOut’s old meme channel (you wouldn’t be so dismissive of that cesspool of bigotry if you had) or good experiences at your LGSes), there are plenty of players out there who have not. It is a problem Wizards is well aware of and is trying to fix - for example, they recently changed some of their judge policies to give judges greater authority to stop transphobia during games.
Overall, and contrary to your assertion of pessimism, I am fairly optimistic about where the community stands and the steps Wizards is taking to create a more welcoming play environment. But that optimism does not mean I am blind to the fact there are significant issues in the community, and that I would rather not see already-established dog whistles added to the game itself, nor see Wizards actively court the kind of player who is into that kind of thing.
Which is why I support segregating those products—especially for Warhammer—from the main game. Stand alone products with Magic’s rules but different card backings can serve to get others interested in the game, without tainting the game itself as a default (Rule Zero could allow them for folks whose group are fine with it - as is the case with gold and silver bordered cards).
shadow63 - You have been active on TappedOut long enough to know it often has problems of this nature. And, again, I’m not saying that Magic is largely intolerant - just that it does have its own share of issues and Wizards doesn’t need to encourage those problems by partnering with a company who admits their game has a Nazi problem.
October 7, 2022 12:21 p.m.
I just found out that a WH40k tournament in Talaveras, Spain, included a player with overt and unambiguous neo-Nazi imagery on his clothing, going by the name of Austrian Painter. Apparently in Spain, there is no specific law against displaying this sort of imagery, as long as the wearer is otherwise behaving appropriately. Due to this (lack of) law, and I assume the tournament not including a provision to disqualify competitors on for this or similar reasons, Austrian Painter was allowed to continue with his insignia on full display. This happened last year.
I freely admit I don't know everything around the story; I just found it five minutes ago. It does sound like other competitors complained, and at least one person refused to play against him. But if one person feels like they can show up like that, and that person has friends with similar views, and those friends have friends, that's how it spreads.
I virtually never make any sort of ideological statement online, but this can't be allowed. AT MINIMUM, Games Workshop should include a blanket rule for all tournaments making this grounds for immediate disqualification, if they want to be taken seriously. I'm sure that there are neo-Nazi M:tG players, even if I've never (knowingly) interacted with one. How bad does it have to be before it's too late?
One person overtly displaying neo-Nazi insignia, making bigoted remarks, or otherwise showing any signs of intolerance toward anyone is too much. I'm not going to be the thought police; I don't care what's happening inside someone's head. But as soon as they demonstrate any bigotry or intolerance in any way, they're not welcome anywhere I am.
October 7, 2022 1 p.m.
That's how tattoos and wearing black and makeup was viewed once... you dont know what's in people's heads... but if you display that tou are "wierd" then people shouldn't be surprised if they are judged and unwelcome in certain settings... its self preservation.
October 7, 2022 1:06 p.m.
Icbrgr Sure, but the intent matters. As someone who wears black pretty regularly, and who has many tattooed friends, I don't believe what me and my friends do has the same intention as someone wearing an AN-wolfsangel shirt and White Power tattoo. Once people figured out that the tattoo, clothing, or makeup itself had no inherent intention, those lost a lot of stigma.
A tattooed person wearing black isn't necessarily a threat. A 1488-tattooed person wearing a black shirt with a swastika armband pattern is a threat.
October 7, 2022 2:01 p.m.
It's just a side effect of the mindset of both extremes of intolerance and being forced to accept everyone... not everyone is going to want to get to know you for your intentions... meanwhile someone shoots up a school and people wonder why nobody said anything.
I am not gonna shout down original Unholy Strength art or devils and demons in MTG because I am afraid if satanic culture... but at the same time I shouldn't be shamed for not wanting to play with people because they make me feel uneasy.
October 7, 2022 2:14 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #29
Caerwyn, if WotC printed a Star Wars-themed MtG product, would you feel the same way about the Galactic Empire as you do about the Imperium from Warhammer 40,000, since both are modeled after Nazi Germany?
October 23, 2022 4:17 p.m.
DemonDragonJ - I already responded to that exact question.
This is not some historical symbolism used to identify the bad guys, as is the case in Lion King, Star Wars, and other franchises. This is a particularly niche case where the symbolism is of a particular problem, and that modern context makes the inclusion in Magic uniquely untenable. By printing these cards in Magic, Wizards is tacitly accepting the lore of “Nazis are fighting for you!” into their game, but that is still only a fraction of the issue. The main issue is that Wizards knew or should have known that 40k has a present and well-documented (even by its own maker) Nazi community, which Wizards explicitly chose to court by making their partnership with Games Workshop.
Or to put it more bluntly, Warhammer (and Magic by extension) uses the actual uniform from an SS officer, complete with the same symbols and Warhammer has a self-admitted problem with Nazis among its players - players Wizards was explicitly trying to court. I would not want to see Star Wars Magic cards either, but there is a major difference in terms of the level of Nazi symbolism and the fan bases of the franchises making them distinguishable.
October 23, 2022 5:06 p.m. Edited.
DemonDragonJ says... #31
Caerwyn, I see; my familiarity with Warhammer 40,000 is minimal at best, so I was not aware of the specific details of the Imperium of Man.
As for the main subject of this thread, I would rather not see any spin-offs of MtG, since I feel that it dilutes MtG's own aesthetic and style; the game is perfectly fine as it is, so it does not need any spin-offs.
October 23, 2022 10:23 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #32
So, to clarify, Magic: The Gathering isn't making anything. Wizard's of the Coast is.
And now, it isn't so much Wizard's of the Coast, as much as it is Hasbro.
So if Hasbro made a secondary card game, with similar elements to Magic: The Gathering, but not officially MTG, would I play it? Honestly, no. Magic is far too expensive, and attempting to pick up a brand new trading card game will be a nightmare because prices will be the same for packs, only now you have such an infinitely smaller pool of cards, each card worth it's weight in salt will be 10x more in demand.
Imagine if a 360-card set was released and there was one that happened to be very powerful. Everyone wants that card, and the entire set only has 360 in total. You bet your butts that card will skyrocket in price. Meaning packs go up, as players attempt to buy and collect for it.
So no, absolutely not I wouldn't play a secondary game that they come up with. I can barely afford Magic as it is, right now. Part of the reason why I only lurk around in the custom card forum. Aside from the two D&D sets, which I made the special exception for, I haven't really bought any product in years. I bought a little of New Capenna. Nothing from Neon Dynasty. Nothing from Modern Horizons 2, Crimson Vow, Midnight Hunt, Time Spiral: Remastered or Strixhaven.
- By "nothing", I mean maybe 1 or 2 bundles and a handful of loose packs. All of which are collecting dust, not being used. So maybe $100 - $120 each. Functionally nothing.
Kaldheim I bought maybe 3 or 4 bundles of, but never used anything.
Nothing from Core 21. Like, literally nothing.
I did buy a box of Double Masters for my birthday. Pulled a Karn box topper. Sold it. Nothing from Jumpstart or Unscantioned. Maybe 2 or 3 bundles of Zendikar Rising. I tried for Ikoria, maybe 3 bundles. No Theros, no Throne, no Core... I really haven't bought anything of meaningful substance since the last return to Ravnica; Guilds-Allegiance-WAR. And when I bought into those, I was very heavily disappointed and used basically nothing from any of them.
I've actually been going back and forth on just throwing all of the cards away. They are just cluttering up a shelf in my basement and a corner in my bedroom collecting dust. They never even get looked at. I can no longer justify dropping the money on a Commander deck that can actually hold it's own ($500 - $1,000+) and I only own 1 deck that I built myself and a few precons.
Everything else is just... wasted space and dead money. So, I've been thinking about just throwing it all away and leaving the game entirely. All I really do is play the same 1 single deck with 1 single person, and that's it.
Basically, the only reason I stick around with the community anymore is for the custom cards and lore. And other than on this very website, every other website that has custom cards (Facebook, reddit, etc) are so toxic and full of hate that I don't even post there anymore.
So really, I'm just here for making custom ideas and that's all. Basically been out of Magic for a few years now, it would seem.
October 23, 2022 10:39 p.m. Edited.
I had a passing thought. Other companies, Fantasy Flight comes to mind, release expansion sets as non-randomized blocks. To make this parallel with M:tG, imagine if instead of buying randomized boosters and single cards for Ravnica, you bought the Gruul pack, containing four of each card associated with the Gruul Clans.
Expansions introduce new abilities, so to continue this example, the "base set" showcases general aggro behind Borborygmos, the Green Guilds expansion would add bloodthirst, the Red Guilds expansion would introduce bloodrush, the Aggro Guilds expansion adds riot, and so on, adding new abilities whenever it gets an expansion. There's also the potential to add, say, Simic or Izzet cards as needed to supplement or reinforce your Gruul deck, so you still have the full range of guilds to combine.
Obviously, this wouldn't work for M:tG at this point, but if a new game (with new rules) was created for a faction-heavy plane like Ravnica, I can imagine this working, developing the depth of each guild and the guildless.
October 24, 2022 3:04 a.m.
wallisface says... #34
legendofa the one risky thing with a business model like that, is for a company to keep making decent profits, they need to keep power-creeping every expansion to be stronger than the last. Mtg obviously already has smaller aspects of this happening in sets, but I think that expansion model suggested would raise power-creep to a whole-new-level
October 24, 2022 3:55 a.m.
wallisface I have to admit, I haven't gotten into any of their card games, so I don't know how the power creep is. Skimming assorted forums, though, it seems like they avoid power creep pretty successfully, by keeping the "base set" fairly compact and relatively low-power, while expanding the range of potential abilities. Again, using the M:tG parallel, the "base set" might have a 2/2 with trample, the first expansion has a 2/2 with bloodthirst 2 and trample, the second expansion has a 2/2 with trample and bloodrush, third has 2/2 trample + riot, and so on. While the "base set" option is objectively the weakest, it's not intended to at the same power level, and all of the others are reasonably equivalent. There's no reason to create a 3/3 with trample and riot for the same cost.
October 24, 2022 1:27 p.m.
wallisface says... #36
legendofa it may be that FF avoid some power creep issues by not having the same pressure to sell product. I don’t see a world where Wotc went down this product line without making a complete mess of it.
October 24, 2022 2:21 p.m.
wallisface Very likely true, but I'm enjoying the hypothetical.
wallisface says... #2
There’s pretty much no reason for the company to make a completely identical game to magic - they’d be more incentivised to make something new with different rules.
Assuming though, that it is just the same game with the old rules and a different name, that just makes the first set they release identical to playing any one standard set in isolation. So how good/fun is that set?
There’s nothing stopping your local playgroup choosing a bunch of existing sets to represent “magic the surrounding”, and playing it as a new homebrew format.
October 5, 2022 3:29 p.m.