Casually Creative?

General forum

Posted on July 23, 2021, 4:22 p.m. by RNR_Gaming

So, with all of the resources available is it even possible to be a casual and be creative?

YouTube, edhrec, twitter, facebook, mtgo top8, goldfish, tappedout/other deck building sites are saturated with content! It genuinely feels as though formats are figured out meer hours after a set drops.

Strixhaven gave us 275 cards Mh2 gave us 303 cards Dnd gave us 281 cards

Of course I'm not accounting for reprints cause I'm lazy but these are huge sets! It's crazy to think that all this effort gets put into this product and only a handful of cards are actually going to see play and shake the format up - but we already know what's going to be good. Most seasoned players evaluate cards the exact same way - of course some cards may get over estimated but things now a days are hardly ever underestimated.

Bonus question - have you been able to win a non-edh/draft sanctioned event without netdecking?

TriusMalarky says... #2

70% or so of a given set is 'draft chaff' -- almost entirely for the limited formats that set provides. Most commons and uncommons fill that role. Many of the other cards fall into Commander or Cube staples, and aren't that good in 60-card constructed formats.

Then, you have the cards that are good in Standard. Those are found out pretty quickly because of the raw quantity of Arena players.

Finally, the Modern and Pioneer playables. There aren't actually all that many in most sets, hence why Modern evolved so slowly pre-Horizons.

And actually, yes, it's fully possible to be 'casual' and be creative. The main problem with coming up with creative brews is they tend not to do as well, but there's massive amounts of potential in any given format.

I have done fairly well with budget, self-brewed decks. I do it all the time at FNM, or I did pre-COVID, gonna get back into it tonight. Often, I would only lose my final match, and it was often against whoever got first, with me hovering around 2nd or 3rd.

July 23, 2021 4:37 p.m.

wallisface says... #3

I think it is easily possible to be creative and maintain a competitive deck, but it does take a good level of card-evaluation. Some cards will always be bad and aren’t worth considering. And some creative ventures need to take slight concessions to maintain power.

Almost all of my decks have been spawned from a place of creativity, while maintaining as much competitive power as possible, and the results have been strong:

  • I had built hardened scales as a deck looong before it was in the meta, or even a deck in general. I’m sure I wasn’t the first - but this was still a 100% creative venture that ended up becoming near-top-tier.

  • likewise, I’ve had this brew for a very long while, and did see someone make top8 in a televised competitive event with a very similar list years on. It’s a deck that has done me very well (though is increasingly struggling versus all of whites new exile effects).

  • I brewed a fight deck built around forcing the opponent to sac things to Phyrexian Obliterator . Yes, it does look very close to a typical Rock deck, but concessions had to be made for power here, and the end result is that I can still get fight-related wins while maintaining deck power.

  • I have had great success with an esper taxes brew that has far more good matchups than bad ones.

  • My most recent bout of creative deck building is in this -1/-1 counter themed deck. So far, playtesting it a bunch at my local store, and on mtgo, it seems to have a good win percentage, though does have a few terrible matchups (like Tron).

Overall, my belief is there is nothing stopping people from creating new and inventive builds - but you can’t expect any dumb gimmick to work, and also ensuring the deck performs well takes a LOT of playtesting and fine tuning (you’re going to lose lots of games till you figure out how to make it work).

Edit: to answer your bonus question, yes :)

July 23, 2021 5:02 p.m. Edited.

RNR_Gaming says... #4

TriusMalarky - maybe it's just the spike in me wanting wizards to push the power creep further on commons/uncommons lol I am enjoying forgotten realms draft but the venture mechanic is super weak and the dice rolling makes it feel a tad bit like pokemon. Granted, most of the base triggers (rolling a 1) are fine but I don't see many things outside of re-rollers making a splash anywhere except edh. (Starting to ramble sorry).

Arena has definitely expedited brewing/figuring out standard/historic/brawl; though for the most part there are still a good chunk of new/inexperienced players which is great for some free wins/confidence boosting. Especially with a game that's been around as long as mtg.

Standard offers a few bread crumbs to modern/legacy every once in awhile - sometimes things a bit to strong for any format cough Oko cough I loved MH2 it did mh1 did but way better!

I suppose I should of defined casual a bit better lol - basically, how much time would you think someone would need to invest to brew something totally unique that hasn't been done before? Also, at that point could the player truly be considered a casual? - like if someone spent literal hundreds of hours researching, brewing and fine tunning I don't think its correct to say they're a casual.

Hope you do well now that you're getting back into it! It's really cool to see a resurgence of table top play.

July 23, 2021 5:42 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #5

wallisface - but at that point could the player truly be considered a casual? After grasping card evaluation, reading articles, play testing, fine tunning and researching I feel that the time investment far exceeds the effort a true casual would put forth into something.

At work currently but I'll be sure to check out the brews/decks later.

July 23, 2021 5:46 p.m.

wallisface says... #6

TriusMalarky quote: "I suppose I should of defined casual a bit better lol - basically, how much time would you think someone would need to invest to brew something totally unique that hasn't been done before? Also, at that point could the player truly be considered a casual? - like if someone spent literal hundreds of hours researching, brewing and fine tunning I don't think its correct to say they're a casual."

I think it's going to be a lot harder for a "casual" player to design a new deck that has competitive relevance, for a few reasons listed below:

  • Decks need to be aware of the existing meta. There's no point brewing a creature-removal deck if nobodies playing creatures, for example. If the brewer isn't aware of what is currently within their meta, they're going to struggle to build around this.

  • The Brewer needs a strong understanding of interactions, and what makes a card "good" (and how to work-around area's that aren't so good). A big part of deckbuilding is having a really strong understanding of how cards and decks are going to play. It's not realistic to make a nonsense 4-card-combo and call it a day. Without a really strong understanding of the game, and having played lots of games, it's going to be hard to brew something worthwhile - this means a casual player might not have the experience needed to make an amazing deck.

  • Decks need a lot of playtesting and iterations to find that sweet spot, and that is an investment casual players may not be willing or able to make.

  • Even if the casual brewer hits gold and makes an amazing deck first-try, the interactions within it may be complicated and cause a lot of game losses until the optimal plays are figured out. Often, when two decks face-off against each other, player experience plays a massive role in who wins. If the casual player doesn't have experience, they may struggle to get wins, and then feel like the deck is to blame for this, when really it is piloting.

For deck building, I would generally put people into one of 4 categories:

  1. people who brew garbage decks because they don't have a good enough understanding of the game. They may have patience/time to refine these decks, but not the skillset to do this meaningfully.

  2. people who brew alright/good decks but then don't have the patience/time to refine these down to something amazing.

  3. people who brew alright/good decks and then refine these to make them great/competitive.

  4. people who netdeck.

My interpretation of a casual player may differ from yours, though generally my own perception is that casual players love playing magic and tuning decks, but generally have a poor grasp of how to build something decent, so would fit into category 1 above. The best way to get out of that cycle, imo, is to borrow other peoples competitive decks and get good at piloting a range of archtypes. Good deckbuilders and usually good players.

to quote you again with your comment "but at that point could the player truly be considered a casual? After grasping card evaluation, reading articles, play testing, fine tunning and researching I feel that the time investment far exceeds the effort a true casual would put forth into something." - the answer is probably no. But just like chess, you can't expect a rookie of the game to suddenly win the championship. Doing good things requires time.

July 23, 2021 6:02 p.m. Edited.

I mean, my Modern Dryad tribal deck is probably the most powerful creation of all time SO

July 23, 2021 7:02 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #8

wallisface - I 100% agree with everything you said. Checked out your decks they were pretty cool. Itd be interesting if people approached games like a sport from the get-go but I suppose that may discourage people. The store I play at use to be very improvement oriented, now it caters to the not so invested crowd; pack per win as opposed to a heavily weighted top prize which has been good for growth but sometimes it feels like playing against bots.

July 23, 2021 7:28 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #9

Omniscience_is_life - I hope one day it top 8s or wins a gp because itd be very amusing to see everyone on Dryads at a local tournment or open.

July 23, 2021 7:29 p.m.

legendofa says... #10

Can casual be creative? Absolutely, probably moreso than competitive. Will that creativity be reflected in a competitive format? Probably not.

The thing about competitive play is that there are professionals--their full time job is literally to win tournaments. If they don't win, they don't get paid. If somebody is willing and able to put in at minimum 8 hours a day, probably much more than that, to find, analyze, build, test, reanalyze, compare, and rebuild decks, allowing no space for pet cards or "fun but inefficient," then that person is probably not a casual player.

The people solving formats are not casual. The creative decks, with tribal synergies and unique combos that go off on turn 5, are not competitive. There's absolutely a place for casual good-times play, but it's not at the competitive table where formats are being solved.

The original question seems to define "creative" as "finding a new competitive deck", which is the complete opposite of "casual". Am I misinterpreting this?

July 23, 2021 8:42 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #11

legendofa - I've never come across an interesting/creative tribal deck. They're all the same. same lords, same creatures and same win cons - not that there isn't some fun to the synergy I just wouldn't call them creative; they're the biggest offender of being copies of each other. Also, I suppose they're not the same but with the saturation can something new really be done?

July 24, 2021 4:20 a.m.

legendofa says... #12

RNR_Gaming Once people step away from the Merfolk and Zombies and whatever, all the big tribes, it becomes more interesting. I've seen a couple variations of Spider tribal and Golem tribal, I'm always working on Skeletons, and I hear Omniscience_is_life built a Dryad deck.

If even that feels too repetitive, mess with the colors or themes. Try Boros Dragons, or Grixis Elementals. Outside of Commander, Slivers can be almost any color combination and focus, if you stick to 1-3 colors. Altar of Dementia , Sands of Delirium , and Altar of the Brood take the ramp and token spam of an Elf deck and turn it into a mill deck.

Every few years, a tribe gets a big push--Treefolk in Lorwyn, Vampires in Zendikar and Innistrad, Pirates and Dinosaurs in Ixalan, Knights in Eldraine. Even without those, most tribes have some sort of internal synergy or theme. These might not break a Top 8 or whatever the measurement of success is these days, but they'll be more memorable than Orzhov Stoneblade #5427.

July 24, 2021 noon

i've won modern FNM with 5c sliver company.

July 24, 2021 12:38 p.m.

legendofa: just noticed you said slivers should stick to 1-3 colors, but i'm fine with all 5. a proper selection of fetch lands and shock lands, Sliver Hive , Aether Vial , and Manaweft Sliver and i almost never have problems getting the right color.

July 24, 2021 3:18 p.m.

RNR_Gaming says... #15

RaidenShogun69 - I was blind sided at an open by a sliver deck. Granted, i think I was either 1/0 or perhaps 0/1 at the time but it is very sneaky and can be potent with the correct draw; though this was at a time when jund, tron and storm were the meta. Not really sure how it'd hold up now. It would have a better mana base but I still don't feel horizons gave slivers enough to get a foot hold in modern.

July 24, 2021 3:58 p.m.

legendofa says... #16

RaidenShogun69 I wasn't really saying that you should use 1-3 colors, just that there's the option to cut back. If you wanted to to go with, say, Sliver beatdown or Sliver control, you can build that and have a solid casual deck.

July 24, 2021 4:13 p.m.

RNR_Gaming: i'm assuming you mean horizons 1? even without an Aether Vial or Collected Company i can still win turn 4 thanks to Cloudshredder Sliver . several of the top decks on mtggoldfish right now dont have enough removal (imo) to deal with my own sliver build, and jund being relatively unplayed now is great. Harmonic Sliver can have a field day all over hammer time decks.

July 25, 2021 1:50 a.m.

It’s late and I have a lot to do tomorrow so I’ll just briefly answer “yes” to both of those questions; it is possible and I have won in draft or whatever with kitchen-sink goofball stuff (probably because the opponents were trying for fancier “good” mechanics). If you believe in yourself and have some lucky shuffles you’ll be good as gold ;p

July 25, 2021 2:59 a.m.

plakjekaas says... #19

The bane of my enjoyment of Magic as a game is the mindset that you need to win to have fun with the game. Being a casual means you don't care about winning events, don't care about what the best cards are. Being a casual is going 0-2-2 at FNM with a Jeskai Lutri singleton control deck and still having a blast doing so. I have no problem being creative, even with all resources available. But that comes with the acceptance that I'm not going to beat the player with the latest fully tuned Prismari Dragons list 9 out of 10 times.

Yet, I always feel a tinge of pride and fulfillment when my opponent asks himself out loud after game one: "How on earth am I going to sideboard against this?" That, and not the Standings at the end of the night, is when I feel casual and creative.

July 25, 2021 6:38 a.m.

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