Pauper Storm Update Help

sergiodelrio says... #2

I think it would be useful if you added some info as to what kind of specific input you are looking for... is the deck not functioning (well enough)? If so, how/ on what front? Are you looking for individual card upgrades? It would also help if the deck description was a little more detailed, I mean, I understand what it wants to do, but still.

August 21, 2024 7:10 p.m.

wallisface says... #3

Some thoughts. Keep in mind i’m a Modern player so my knowledge of pauper is weak.

16 lands seems super, super low when you need at least two to do anything. Yes you have drum, but to make use of that will require a creature, which also is going to very-likely cost you 2 mana.
Faithless Looting has historically only been really strong because players using it will also be making use of those cards that end up in the grave. Without having any way to make use of the graveyard, this spell is just reducing your hand size. Imo if you’re desperate for card selection something like Preordain will be a lot more useful.
My initial assessment of what’s going on here is that it would be better run as an 8-whack style deck. In that vein, I think blue is holding you back and creating inconsistency, and you might be better-off being mono-red. Something closer to this but obviously keeping the cards that make your deck unique

August 21, 2024 9:02 p.m.

PauperPower says... #4

sergiodelrio haha fair point, I'm very minimalist with my deck descriptions. I've updated it now, posting it here as well incase it hasn't updated on my page yet.

What I'm looking for help with is potential card upgrades and where to slot then for a bit more consistency. I'd like more resilience, but Im not sure that's possible with this list.

I've seen people in newer versions that no longer run Shared Discovery using "Name Sticker" Goblin but that card has since been banned, so I'm just looking for newer cards that I've missed or just haven't consideree that could help this run a tiny bit smoother.

Thanks!

The Plan:

So part one of the plan is to get a bunch of goblin tokens on to the board with effects like Dragon Fodder, Krenko's Command, and Kuldotha Rebirth.

Part two of the plan is casting Brightstone Ritual / Battle Hymn into Distant Melody / Shared Discovery. You do this as many times as you can to fill your board with goblins, and draw into your wincons.

The wincons in the deck are either a "storm" kill with Goblin War Strike, a combat damage kill with a kicked Goblin Bushwhacker, or some combination of the two.

Cards Not Previously Mentioned:

The artifact lands and Springleaf Drum are targets for Kuldotha Rebirth they also fix our mana to get the much needed blue mana to start our storm plan.

Faithless Looting helps turn through our deck(potentially letting us dig 4 cards deep depending on mana reserve) Manamorphose also helps us get through our deck a bit and mana fix.

Sideboard Plan:

Under Construction

August 21, 2024 10:44 p.m.

PauperPower says... #5

wallisface I haven't had too much of an issue with the land count in the list. It has led to some awkward draws, but it's more detrimental to hit a big land pile while you're trying to "storm" into a win. There are lists that run 14, but even I think that's too few.

Faithless Looting here is a straight dig card allowing you to see 4 cards for 4 mana once you start going off. Preodain is top notch but I don't really want to move any more into blue than I already am, but you may be correct, I think it strains the mana a bit too much(more than it already is).

As far as removing blue; that kind of defeats the purpose of the deck as distant melody is basically the backbone of the deck. Essentially that's the card you need to win, the rituals are also crucial, but it's pointless to play Brightstone Ritual if your hand is empty.

The idea of cutting blue completely and just running 8-Whack isn't what I'm going for, it's a completely different deck, and if I kept any of the unique cards from this list it would pretty much just be a bad 8-Whack list.

Although I have seen one or two updated lists from a few years ago that cut the Shared Discovery's and Manamorphose for Lotus Petals and Synthisizer. They were set up more mono red, but kept the Distant Melody's.

I really appreciate you taking a look and leaving suggestions!

August 21, 2024 11:13 p.m.

PauperPower says... #6

sergiodelrio wallisface So I've had a beer or two about it, and I think I'm going to try and see if I can work out a version of this list that just splashes blue for the shared discovery....haha I can't let go!!!!.

I'll post an update in here if you're willing to check it out when it's all done. Either way, thanks again for the help.

August 23, 2024 1:19 a.m.

sergiodelrio says... #7

Looking forward to that, happy brewing

August 23, 2024 5:52 a.m.

wallisface says... #8

Doing some googling, it appears that most pauper decks that are playing aggro or combo are aiming to win most of the time on turn 4, or turn 5 at the absolute latest (with the caveat that this is when goldfishing and that most pauper games are “grindfests”).

In that vein, when you’re rebuilding your deck, i’d suggest goldfishing it a bunch and make sure that it can reliably (70-90% ??) get a turn 4 win, and otherwise win on the following turn. Anything else is likely too slow.

In any case, i’d be keen to offer more thoughts when you update the list :)

August 23, 2024 6:26 p.m.

PauperPower says... #9

Goblin Storm

Haven't been able to do a ton of testing, but I've got a first draft of the list up if either of you guys want to check it out. Thanks!

wallisface sergiodelrio

August 24, 2024 12:29 p.m.

wallisface says... #10

PauperPower I goldfished 10 games to get an idea of what the deck is doing. to also get a gauge of deck consistency, I didn't mulligan (which is obviously not realistic to real gameplay, but also in the real world you'd have an opponent interacting with the deck). I played until the end of turn 4 to see how reliably the deck could goldfish a win by that stage.

Game 1: 15 damage
Game 2: 9 damage
Game 3: 12 damage
Game 4: 6 damage
Game 5: 15 damage
Game 6: 20 damage!!
Game 7: 0 damage (it was a bad hand, all land and mana-gain effects)
Game 8: 10 damage
Game 9: 4 damage
Game 10: 15 damage

Things I noticed from these games:

Distant Melody was almost always a very awkward/bad card to have in hand. Most of the time this was a dead-card in hand, and every time I drew more than 1 of these the game was disastrously bad.
The deck felt like it needed a TON of things to go right to actually start making progress. It needed cards that made goblins, and also cards that provided mana, and also something to actually turn all that momentum into damage (i.e. Goblin Bushwhacker or Goblin War Strike). It felt like there was a lot of pieces required to get any progress, and in a LOT of the games I only drew into two of those 3 required components.
The general lack of turn 1 plays made it very hard to establish a board that could present lethal by turn 4.
both Seat of the Synod and Silverbluff Bridge felt terrible to be playing as the land for turn. Seat of the Synod because the deck is sooo-reliant on red-mana-pips, and any attempt to "storm off" was usually hampered by it not providing red. Silverbluff Bridge just felt terrible in that it was sooo slow for a deck trying to do things quickly.
It almost never felt viable to blow up your own lands to Kuldotha Rebirth. I was very lucky that most of the games I also had a Experimental Synthesizer in hand - but I can't imagine ever wanting to sacrifice a land unless it's part of the winning turn of the game.
The best cards in the deck felt a LOT like Experimental Synthesizer, Kuldotha Rebirth, Goblin Bushwhacker, Goblin War Strike, and Brightstone Ritual.
Battle Hymn felt kindof bad in that a lot of the time it's only gaining you 1-2 mana. But also the 2-mana cost was actually a lot more awkward than i'd expected, as far as trying to cast this while also having a board state.

I think overall the deck felt too slow, and far too inconsistent. I would be removing Distant Melody, Battle Hymn, and the blue lands.

August 24, 2024 7:17 p.m.

PauperPower says... #11

wallisface haha yeah the new list has almost been a lateral move overall. It does seem a bit more consistent in the gameplan though.

It's tough running a play test with no mulligans for a deck that would already mulligan suuuper aggressively. This current build needs to mulligan a bit less, so I'm taking your analysis seriously, but also with a grain of salt if that makes sense.

The deck isn't very good period, it never was and never will be, so that turn 4 mark isn't something I was super striving for. This is more a fun build that can occasionally ruin somebody's evening haha. Granted, I still want it to run in somewhat of respectable fashion.

But as stated the improvement so far has been marginal. The lack of one drops is glaring. Even in the lower tiers of pauper, it's still a fast format. I'm thinking of stealing a bit from Kuldotha Red lists and adding in Implement of Combustion and possibly maybe a few copies of Galvanic Blast.

The amount of time you've put in to help me is astounding, and I really really appreciate it.

Haha I'm not quite ready to give up on Distant Melody yet(you'll probably have to pry it from my cold dead hands) but I definitely see how it's a liability.I've been looking into pauper 1 and 2 drops that make treasure to work as more targets for rebirth and fix mana, but nothing is really out there that I can find other than Reckless Lackey which is ok but mehhh. I've also considered Lotus Petal which is really enticing.

Again an earnest thank you for all the help. Cheers homie!

August 25, 2024 12:39 a.m. Edited.

wallisface says... #12

PauperPower I guess a good thing to set for yourself is milestones for the deck to achieve.

It’s fair-enough if you think it’s unreasonable for the deck to be able to keep up with the 4-turn speed of meta aggro/combo decks, but then set your goal to at-least achieve a turn 5 win. It’s fair to say your deck needs to mulligan aggressively - but then it’s wise to set a goal for a minimum percentage of hands that are “keepable” (from my above goldfishing a “keepable” hand looks to be around 10-20%, which is too low even for decks that mull aggressively).

Once you have some goalposts in place for the deck, it’s a lot easier to work your changes towards achieving them.

August 25, 2024 1:08 a.m.

PauperPower says... #13

wallisface fantastic advice and I fully agree. I'm definitely looking at this deck way too nostalgically from what is was(a massive glass cannon that was super fun to jam), and I'm struggling to move it into the new meta without completely changing the decks identity.

I want to keep it's original identity without moving too far into just a straight aggro deck. To be fair a lot of games played out like a aggro token deck, with the potential of a combo.

Its just been tough trying to figure out a solid base and the balance required to make it work. That balance may not be a thing that did/can exist in this list and I'm really just chasing ghosts, but I'm going to keep trying to get it to a spot that's fun, but also a deck that can steal matches.

haha I swear this deck ruled 6 years ago. Format is just so different now. Thanks again friend, I really appreciate it.

August 25, 2024 2:09 a.m.

PauperPower says... #14

For reference, this is where the original list came from, sorry I've never figured out how to link YouTube vids on here...

https://youtu.be/puAJOjqbqQE?si=zlt-9-6dtHqH4_6R

If you watch, please disregard the intro haha.

August 25, 2024 2:21 a.m.

wallisface says... #15

PauperPower I guess my concerns from quickly flicking through this video, is that the list is 6 years old - and a LOT has happened to the state of all formats since then. Furthermore, from what I can see he's playing against super suboptimal lists, so I'm not sure how much of an achievement it is to be dunking on weak brews.

But, I think the big telling thing with these games is that he almost universally is sat in every game hoping to topdeck a particular kind of card to start "popping off" and doing anything... which is pretty indicative of its unreliability. Having games decided at the whims of a topdeck is never going to be a good feeling, and considering how many moving parts are going on in this deck, I get the feeling that it's going to happen a lot, while also often not rewarding the pilot with what they're after.

I'm not trying to dismiss this list entirely, I think there's something there. But as it stands it feels too disjointed and chaotic to perform well. I will add that in every game won in that video, it basically played out like an 8-whack list but with a bunch of extra unnecessary steps, which makes we wonder whether all the "storming" aspects make any actual sense over just streamlining the list into a more solid Goblin Bushwhacker build

August 25, 2024 3:35 a.m.

wallisface says... #16

Have you tried Glimpse the Impossible yet? It gives you the opportunity to find key cards easier, while also filling your board with creatures. They're not goblins, but Goblin Bushwhacker doesn't judge. Plus, they can act as mana which imo the deck needs.

My only concern with the card is 3 mana is a lot so it's going to be awkward to cast, and in most cases hard to cast anything off-of

August 25, 2024 3:39 a.m.

PauperPower says... #17

wallisface haha yeah not only suboptimal lists but very suboptimal plays(3 brainstorms with a fetch up and never cracking it) in game one ehere they had nothing going on, but to the lists merit it still can push a lot of damage quickly.

Unfortunately in pauper you can only run 4 whack haha, but I fully agree and that's what I'm trying to work on and refine with this list. Basically the ability to run an aggro list with a "combo" out for when the aggro element stops.

I haven't tried Glimpse yet. The 3 cmc hardcast scared me off of it for how the deck runs, It's definitely in consideration.

It's been a tough decision making process where I'm not sure if cutting card advantage for a more aggro approach is what this deck wants/needs, or if I need to make the big payoffs more consistent.

This is pretty much why I made this post, I'm grasping at straws trying to make this deck run with a more consistent gameplan and way less of "man what a lucky draw" gameplan.

I've been starting to come to the realization that this is a deck that will always be a gimmick(I kind of always knew that). I'm just hoping it can become a little bit more solid foundationally. That may not be a possibility currently, but im still going to try and get it into a spot where it runs more predictably/reliably.

The cards may not be out there yet, but I just feel like I'm missing something(that something may be that this deck sucks haha).

August 25, 2024 4:19 a.m.

sergiodelrio says... #18

Folks, just for fun, try taking the 'deck to look at' I posted under your OG decklist (bottom of post) as a starting point. With similar playtesting, it is much closer to a T4/5 kill. Glimpse was a really strong Melody replacement. And I really felt upping Hymn was worth it, but maybe we can replace that with Rite of Flame idk. I encourage you to goldfish a few hands, as I felt it was quite consistent

August 25, 2024 4:48 a.m.

wallisface says... #19

sergiodelrio i assume you’re meaning this list here?

I really, really like it, and it 100% feels like the direction this archetype needs to head! The landbase could use some rework (there’s no need for blue). But other than that it seems a lot more reliable. Good stuff!

August 25, 2024 5:14 a.m.

sergiodelrio says... #20

Exactly, just threw this together with some 1-2-1 replacements, and really only to have something tangible backing up my post. Kept some offcolor artifact lands as sac fodder tbh mostly for laziness. I really think there is a lot of potential to make this archetype work.

Statistically we need at least 13 artifacts for Kuldotha Rebirth to be online realiably

After some more thought, I am convinced that if glimpse, wrenn's, and synthesizer are played, Lotus Petal is a 100% must 4 of in this deck... it really becomes a modal spell. Might even be able to replace lands (possibly 2-to-1 ratio). Second guessing rite of flame and battle hymn... if anything, hymn could be copies 13 and 14 representing lategame ramp when going off (I consider glimpse to double as a ramp spell if needed... it's really fun messing with this deck and all its pieces, thanks for starting the thread PauperPower xD

August 25, 2024 7:19 a.m. Edited.

PauperPower says... #21

sergiodelrio haha I started this post so people much smarter than I (you and wallisface) could work some magic.

I know there's something here and viable with this collection of cards, I just don't have the brain power to make it work. I've been thrilled to have everyone's help on this, and I've finally accepted that distant melody probably won't work in here, as much as that pains me to say haha.

I'm going to keep tinkering around, please keep me posted if you two are still messing with it and come up with something. It feels like you two are on track to a breakthrough that I'm struggling to find.

A thousand thanks for all the help!

August 25, 2024 4 p.m.

wallisface says... #22

For what it’s worth, if I were building this deck it’d look something very close to this:

Rite of Flame and Lotus Petal both let you start your game a turn earlier, which is important when there’s otherwise soo few turn one plays.

Manamorphose, Gitaxian Probe and Street Wraith are all there to just cantrip easily, meaning you’re running effectively a 48 card deck which should make it a lot more consistent and find you the pieces you need.

Cathartic Reunion is a bit of a flex slot. I could easily see either Ichor Wellspring or maybe even Goblin Tomb Raider being a better fit here.

August 25, 2024 6:15 p.m.

PauperPower says... #23

wallisface unfortunately Git-probe is banned in pauper.

August 25, 2024 6:49 p.m.

wallisface says... #24

PauperPower makes sense, the card is busted. It’s a pretty easy card to swap out as it’s not crucial to the plan.

August 25, 2024 7:02 p.m.

PauperPower says... #25

Goblin Storm

Most recent update. I'm still going to mess around with distant melody in the list for a bit, but this is probably the direction the list will be headed.

Reckless Lackey, Lotus Petal and to a way lesser extent Impulsive Pilferer make me want to hang onto that blue splash for the explosiveness of Melody(yes I have a problem).

Also added in darksteel cit over silverbluff for an additional untapped artifact land in the mono red version, not sure if I need those red color pips though. The tinkering continues.

August 26, 2024 1:41 a.m.

sergiodelrio says... #26

Ok, wow. I really hope this is functional, because that's pretty much exactly how I'd build it.

I think you could possibly shave 1 copy of War Strike if you find yourself in a position where you really need sth else, like one more land or so. Now is the time to figure out play patterns and optimal plays/sequencing etc and base further refinement on those numbers, if required. I really like it! (sadly, the fact that I like it does not guarantee it being any good, lol)

As for the Sideboard, that is really my weak spot when it comes to deckbuilding, but I think your No1 enemy will be decks that can -1/-1 all creatures in some way or another. anything else you can likely recover from imho.

Again, nicely done!

August 26, 2024 5:55 a.m.

PauperPower says... #27

sergiodelrio So I am running into an issue with this deck (I'm mainly goldfishing). It's been way more consistent as far as play pattern and getting board presence, but it's hard to determine if it's enough.

I notice the deck will often run out of gas, and fall flat. I'm really on the fence now with the addition of lotus petal whether or not I should add blue back in for 4 copies of Melody for the 4 of Wrenn's Resolve.(I can feel you eye rolling throught the screen).

In this current version the 14 land mana base hasn't been an issue, but I feel it will be the case if I dip back into blue.

Although wallisface's suggestion of goblin grenade may be that missing piece instead of going back into blue, but losing the card draw scares me off of that.

August 27, 2024 1:01 a.m.

sergiodelrio says... #28

Yeah, I can see how it's a little wobbly, there are just so many moving pieces. Check out my latest version of this brew... I tried giving you more reliable T1 plays, more artifacts, and because of that Demand Answers for more sac-payoff. It appears to play better, but less combo-y. However, it does manage to "storm off" sometimes. Tried to cap "successful playtesting" at turn 5. See how it goes for you, before re-adding blue. The thing is, even if you choose to put melody back in, the deck really wants to draw cards MORE OFTEN, rather than drawing MORE CARDS on fewer spells, melody is just so swingy imho.

August 27, 2024 8:40 a.m. Edited.

PauperPower says... #29

sergiodelrio Yeah after testing a bit, your list seems way more solid haha. I was unsure about Epicure, but that blood token has been great.

I'm still unsure if Goblin Grenade wants to be in this list or not. Haha I'm still unsure if it's legal. I know it was banned for ages, so I'm having a hard time accepting it's legality.

I've been so flip floppy on blue, but with how your list is turning out(very good), I think I'm going to lean into trying blue and see what I come up with(probably very mediocre). I keep thinking that Reckless Lackey can do something in this list, so I want to mess around with that and see what that can do as far as helping the splash and the lack of early plays.

To be clear, I think the direction your brew is going will definitely be the way to go, I'm just stubborn and crave the big plays. I really hope you keep brewing and refining your version. I'd love to see the end result!

I'll keep this thread posted if I hit a version that I'm finally happy with. Many, many thanks to everyone again! Cheers!

August 28, 2024 12:09 a.m.

wallisface says... #30

It's not Pauper, but AspiringSpike has released a youtube video of a Modern brew that looks very adjacent to what you're doing. If nothing else it might help give you inspiration.

August 28, 2024 11:31 p.m.

PauperPower says... #31

wallisface oh nice! I'll check that out. Thanks!

August 29, 2024 12:05 a.m.

PauperPower says... #32

Goblin Storm

sergiodelrio wallisface

So this is the list I've been going with. Definitely still has the "boom or bust" play style, but it is definitely more consistent in how the list plays out. I've found the addition of Goblin Lackey to be super solid. They help being an early turn damage source while also fixing the mana so I can pop off with a Distant Melody. I ended up cutting down to 14 lands to run 3 of them.

The Chromatic Star suggestion although seemingly small really helped hone this list in for me. Thanks for all the help for the entire revision of the list and all the testing and suggestions.

Still iffy on the Goblin Cave sideboard plan, been going back and fourth on if I should just swap them for Dispel.

Thanks again!

September 11, 2024 6:30 p.m.

PauperPower says... #33

Still debating the mana base a tiny bit.

Unsure if I should cut down to 6 mountains. Not a huge fan of running another tap land, but also don't really want to run another straight up blue land.

It's pretty much off color untapped, on color tapped, or one less target for Kuldotha Rebirth.

It's tougher to decide with the mana down to 14 lands.

September 11, 2024 11:45 p.m.

sergiodelrio says... #34

How are the Lotus Petals working out for you? Last time I checked I found them almost kinda sketchy, but that was in one of my variants of course. I remember going back and forth with those when playtesting and really was on the edge of replacing them with 2 lands and 2 Implement of Combustion or so.

I don't think I can help you with the SB at all, unfortunately.

September 13, 2024 5:10 a.m. Edited.

PauperPower says... #35

sergiodelrio The entire deck is kind of sketchy haha, but they've been working great.

You definitely end up having some gamble keeps, but the mana fixing and being a target for rebirth a big, plus the ability to have them keep a turn during a storm run is huge.

I could definitely see cutting them from your version though. Although it helps your list a ton with fast starts, I'm not sure you wouldn't be happier with more Synthisizers or Combustions.