Land Hate as a Defensive Strategy
Deck Help forum
Posted on July 1, 2022, 5:38 p.m. by 77hi77
In the deck I'm currently developing, Raza and His Smelly Blood, I thought I'd try a thing. Every deck I've built in Arena has used lots of creature removal to protect me while I set up my combos, but I'm curious about land removal. I still have to buy most of the cards in that deck, so I've never tried land hate as my main disruption tactic. Do you think it requires a deck dedicated to making it work, or is it something that can just be slotted in the same way you'd slot in creature removal?
Thanks!
I'm no expert, but I'd think that it would be much harder to do a land destruction strategy without having a deck dedicated to it. Creature removal can wait and see what the biggest threats are, but land removal will be things you have to instantly play to set people back. And depending on your playgroup, if a lot of players do the trendy EDH play of ramp-ramp-combo, land removal will be hard pressed to actually set back three players on this kind of strategy. If it was 1v1 I'd think that it would be stronger. Creature removal also gives you a chance to set somebody's turn back because summoning sickness means they usually have to wait a turn to actually use their big things.
It would be awesome if you could make it work though : ) Would be into seeing it. But just off the top of my head it feels like, that would be hard.
July 1, 2022 8:54 p.m.
Arhen_Dante well... last time I played consistently was last summer on Arena, and most of the decks I faced were blue that countered everything I put down, and here I am going "surely you don't have 33 counterspells in your deck". A few turns later when I couldn't put down a single card, they'd loop into some ridiculous combo and instantly win. So, yes, this idea came from me asking myself what the meanest thing I could do to a blue deck would be. Contamination seems evil, I like it.
Niko9 completely fair! The selection of land-disrupting cards is quite limited and I'd probably have to be a much better player than I currently am to make it work to the extent I'm hoping. If I feel like it needs more of the deck focused on it, then I guess that's what I'll have to do.
Thanks for the feedback!
July 1, 2022 9:38 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #5
Land destruction is hard to pull off, and falls into that "not competitive, but everyone in casual seems to hate it zone." You have 3 other players to police. It can sort of be done, but it's just inherently crippled in multiplayer formats, much like discard. In short, I wouldn't generally recommend it; it's both not that strong, and will bother casuals.
July 2, 2022 1:32 a.m.
Grubbernaut is very right. The most effective use of this strategy in EDH is probably stacks, something like Winter Orb or Thalia, Heretic Cathar that just makes players not use their lands, but I don't know. Honestly, I don't get all the hate for land destruction, but it definitely exists : ) In casual at least. The cost efficiency for land vs creature removal is not really there. Stone Rain compared to Tragic Slip is like a birthday balloon vs a space shuttle, they sure both go up, but it's a kinda situation : ) And mass land destruction like Armageddon will slow down your combos too unless you have a way around, so it's all a bit hard.
But again, where there is a will, there is a lot of cards to maybe make it work with. It sounds like a great idea to me, and definitely worth a dive down the rabbit hole of available cards : )
July 2, 2022 7:50 a.m.
Squee_Spirit_Guide says... #7
As others have said, I think it would be really hard to pull off as a main strategy. I think the big struggle would be using it as a defensive strategy. With other removal you can use it as needed on permanents that are disrupting you or attacking you, which usually won't make you more of a target than anyone else.
With land destruction, destroying a land after someone has cast a spell targeting you won't stop that spell so it's not good at being reactive. And using your land destruction proactively or as retribution would likely make you a pretty big target since people seem to like their lands.
However, there's a lot of land destruction out there so you could probably build something decent. I think to be viable it would have to be an all-in aggressive strategy. And, like Niko9 pointed out it would probably be best to be all in on mana denial and land destruction together since other decks will ultimately overcome land destruction alone.
Now, if you can build that deck with Dingus Egg as a win condition... That would be pretty sweet :)
July 3, 2022 3:07 p.m.
In my experience - going back nearly 30 years - land destruction doesn't work unless it is the main strategy. Always has been. Unless your opponent has very little ramp, and such a deck would be very low power level, in which case land hate is kind of a dick move. Even mid-level casual decks should have a couple dorks and/or rocks down by turn 3. Blowing up a land at that point is usually just a wasted move against such a board state. You've gotta be blowing up lands early and often for it to be effective, which requires a serious dedication to the theme.
The best defense against denial is either a) run denial yourself, b) run more artifact removal, which sometimes has the same effect as land hate, but often is more versatile and effective, or c) strategize around it, which means casting powerful spells for the purpose of taunting your opponents into countering them, thus saving your combos and/or wincons. The last of these options is the trickiest and most difficult to learn, but is also realistically the best option.
To illustrate my experience in the field of demolitions, here's a couple EDH decks I've designed. The first one I've built, and played, and it's genuinely brutal in 1v1, while still being viable in multiplayer even though it takes a lot more strategy. The second one I disassembled almost immediately, because I found it to be detestable. In other words, I think that it would lose me friends. I haven't updated either list in over a year, so they could be even more powerful if I had. However, I also haven't played the first one since Jeweled Lotus was released, and I'm curious how effective it would still be now, even with revision.
Klothys Hates Your Lands
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SCORE: 18 | 22 COMMENTS | 1339 VIEWS | IN 3 FOLDERS
BLRM (Bureau of Land and Resource Management)
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July 5, 2022 10:19 a.m. Edited.
Thanks everyone! This is really valuable. Like I said earlier, this idea did come as a reaction (maybe an overreaction...) to control decks 1v1 and wanting to make them suffer like they've made me suffer. I see that it's difficult to pull off in a multiplayer format, but then, with only a handful of games in the format under my belt, EDH seems to be less about control and more about getting off to the races to get your wincon out as quickly as possible. I'll have me a rethink.
Squee_Spirit_Guide Dingus Egg is interesting! Down the line I'd like to add a few sources of Proliferate to the deck and see if I can bust out Liliana, Dreadhorde General's -9 consistently. Right now she's there as a draw engine and a token generator, but I think she'd be a fun wincon!
Epicurus I definitely see what you mean. In both those decks, at least a quarter of your cards are about destroying lands, and many of them destroy multiple lands. Then you have 10 cards dedicated to bringing lands back. I just have 10 cards that remove a single land at a time, and that's not going to do anything quickly enough to be of impact. Unless I pick on one player and decide to bully them, but that only sounds fun if that one player is playing blue control and I need to make it personal.
SO, my decision now is either to go all in on mana removal (including rocks, dorks, and lands) or to save that for another deck since this one is already so specific.
Arhen_Dante says... #2
Contamination would be great with the engine you have. It's a bit more cEDH than some might be happy with you playing(though it is a great reason to run rocks in every deck).
If you took anything out for it, I'd suggest Stench of Evil, unless you hate White as much as I hate Blue, and there are a lot of White decks in your play groups.
July 1, 2022 6:46 p.m.