Karador EDH Deck (Hulk/Boonweaver Combo's + Hate Bears) - Reduce to 75% Help!
Posted on Jan. 4, 2021, 8:02 p.m. by cfost827
So.. I'm basically looking to reduce the strength of my current Karador deck to 75%-80% (or 8/10), as it's currently much too strong for the Meta I play in with my buddies. Perhaps make it more Toolbox or Graveyard focused (i.e. fill it up), and have more ways to win through combat rather than ONLY infinite combos (cEDH). Basically make it more fair and fun to play against (including for me lol).
My Deck List: My Tapped out Deck list link here https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/karador-edh-boonweaverhulk-combos/
Background: This is the first deck I ever built about 7 months ago (built 2 more since). However, the problem was I built it off of a cEDH deck (minus the expensive land base) and didn't realize how powerful it will be. I really don't need to fill up my graveyard either (i.e. Entomb Hulk, Boonweaver, etc works just fine). I'm basically looking to completely change my Karador format but I'm still relatively new to MTG (mostly played my buddies decks for the past 2 years).
The strategy of my deck is basically to combo out (go infinite) as fast as possible. My deck relies on a lot of the common Karador combo's pieces (I have many different possible combo's): Protean Hulk, Boonweaver Giant, Pattern of Rebirth, Karmic Guide, Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter, Loyal Retainers, Sun Titan, Acidic Slime, etc etc. Obviously, I'm planning on removing Hulk, Boonweaver + Pattern of Rebirth. I'll probably keep the Karmic Guide/Reveillark combo though.
I also run a strong tutor suite with Demonic Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Worldly Tutor and other strong cards like Academy Rector and extensive hate bears Gaddok Teeg, etc etc - (I try to only use when in a bind). So it would make sense to remove these.
What happens when I play this deck in our Meta: is that I don't really interact with the board/players much, as I'm just trying to tutor and find my infinite combo's as quickly as possible. This tends to annoy some people as the game will have interactions between players all over and then all of a sudden - I combo out infinitely and win the game. So every game either comes down to A) Me winning.. or B) Each player focusing their attention on me to kill me as quickly as possible, which is understandable, as I can go infinite quite quickly. So you can see why I need to reduce this and try to make my deck more fun to play with for everyone (including myself).
About my Meta/Playgroup: We always play 4 way player EDH (sometimes even 6!). There are some pretty optimized and strong decks. I would say generally decks in our meta are optimized anywhere from 60% - 80% (or 6/10 - 8.5/10). Most decks are valued mostly under $700 (which is on the high end). Infinite combo's are not thought of highly, though there a few decks that run them but it's not their main/only win cons. Our games generally last anywhere from turn 10 - turn 13 - but some decks have gone off turn 4-6 and won. So it does vary but mostly, our games go longer.
My thoughts on how to reduce my decks power (adjust to my meta) and make it more fun below - : - Remove the most powerful tutors - Remove Protean Hulk + Boonweaver Giant/Pattern of Rebirth/Academy Rector and other infinite combos - Remove most of the hate bears - Add more dredge - Add more cards to win through combat (Craterhoof Behemoth) - Transition deck to a Karador Toolbox box deck (can win through combat) ?
Please let me know your thoughts any advice will be helpful! Feel free to include links to any Karador deck lists you think I might find useful. Sorry for the long post but looking forward to all feedback
Thanks guys! :) -Cory
I would take my advice with a grain of salt, but reducing the number of tutors and adding in some more low power alternatives could be good. For example replacing Demonic Tutor for Commune with the Gods. Demonic Tutor is obviously more powerful, as it finds any card, but Commune with the Gods is not a terrible replacement, while reducing consistency. And I find that consistency is what makes the most powerful decks as powerful.
January 4, 2021 8:39 p.m.
Other than that, reducing stax effects, like Eidolon of Rhetoric could lower the power level of your deck.
Also there are some cards I can think of that you could look at that would help lower the power level while still being fun and I would say powerful: Caustic Caterpillar, Vivien's Arkbow, Spore Frog, and Greenseeker.
January 4, 2021 8:48 p.m.
So, it seems to me like the main reason you win is nobody holds up decent countermagic.
I mean, it's not a bad list by any means, but it is going to be super weak to a counterspell. I mean, yeah, you can get two(Autumn's Veil and Veil of Summer) counter-counters, but that's two. Out of, let me guess, ~20 1-mana spells that, when used correctly, should be able to stop your combo(s).
I think what you should do first is look at your friends' lists and go find a bunch of cards that stop your combo for ~1 mana and hand them a list of cards that work. I guarantee you most of them are less than a dollar, and a huge portion of them are 25 cents. If they aren't willing to find a spot for 3-5 1-mana spells that are really good in general, then you can start disarming.
And whatqwerty's suggestions are the first things I'd do.
January 5, 2021 4:14 p.m.
Thanks for the feedback guys! This is very helpful. I think I will start with whatqerty. suggestions.
@TriusMalarky - I think that's good feedback as well. However, my friends do have decent countermagic I would say. However, I can tell my deck is too powerful and it's only way to win is to infinite combo (w/o me barely interacting w/ anyone). This is quite frowned upon in general w/ our play group, ESPECIALLY because i'm literally tutoring for them lol. It plays in the style of a cEDH deck (It's based off one). I do get countered and such but there is always ways to reanimate or just do a different combo - it's mostly just way to quick and powerful.
Some of the Commanders our playgroup runs are: Zedruu the Greathearted, Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, Chainer, Nightmare Adept, Kaalia of the Vast, Sisay, Weatherlight Captain, Mayael the Anima, etc
January 5, 2021 8 p.m.
Two of those commanders aren't grindfests, but that's only if they're built right, and then they're also the more grindy of higher power lists.
This new information means that it's a disparity of wincons. Your win condition is a rather well tuned combo, which means your list can easily sit at about 7.5-8 and won't necessarily get curbstomped by fully cEDH lists. It might even win every once in a while.(props, btw, that's my playstyle as well)
What I recommend is doing what I did -- crack a couple packs of Commander Legends and take either your two favorite partners or your favorite two color legend from those packs, and then throw something together.
My single lower powered list is Szat Kodama cos I pulled them. So now I have a pile of bulk and it's fun because I can't draw enough cards because I vomit them all out but they're all 3/3s and 4/4s.
January 6, 2021 4:26 p.m.
TriusMalarky - haha thanks!! Yeah, I'm basically just retooling the whole Karador deck to make it more fun for everyone. I removed all the hate bears (besides Teeg) and all the tutors so far, along with Hulk and Boonweaver + Pattern Rebirth/Academy Rector.
I took whatqwerty advice and added Spore Frog and Caustic Caterpillar. I'm also basically going more of an Toolbox/Reanimator route adding in some creatures to win through combat and that are powerful. Kokusho, the Evening Star, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Craterhoof Behemoth, Massacre Wurm, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Luminous Broodmoth, Razaketh, the Foulblooded, etc.
Just going to try making some of those updates for now - still trying to construct the deck a different way.
But I appreciate all the feedback! I'm open to anymore suggestions all :)