seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #4
I think this would be fine at 5/4. Islandwalk can matter, but doesn't always. It has three coloured pips, and as a 99-card, it still wouldn't pass the vanilla test. As a commander, 5 power is a 5-turn clock, even though there are quite a few red pump spells. Then again, there are more efficient voltrons at CMC5.
Flavourwise, an ancient shark being 3/4 seems week, so 5/4, like Voracious Greatshark, feels better.
February 10, 2022 11:34 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #5
Yes but blue has a rule where a creatures power and toughness should never exceed their mana value unless it comes with extreme restrictions. And while it is Izzet in identity, it is mono blue in cost. So I wanted to follow the rules for blue.
The main damage should be via swarming and activation, not CMDRDMG
February 10, 2022 11:47 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #6
seshiro_of_the_orochi, when you say it wouldn't pass the vanilla test, what do you mean by that? What is the vanilla test?
My thoughts were that the way the deck is run is mostly instant / sorcery spells for effects; counterspells, cantrips, targeted burn or bounce, etc. You'd basically play hard and fast and force the boardstate to grow with 1/1, 2/2 and maybe even 3/3 sharks. Occasionally you may drop a 7mv spell for a huge 7/7. Note, Cyclonic Rift only nets you a 2/2.
The real, I would say "wincon" is in the tap ability. Imagine you have 5x Sharks in total and you activate him. Nice, 5 damage. Whatever, not too bad.
Rings of Brighthearth copies it for an additional 5 damage.
Illusionist's Bracers can copy it, so can Lithoform Engine and some others. Strionic Resonator can copy the first triggered ability; So if you cast a spell such as Cryptic Command, you'd normally get a 4/4 Shark token. With Resonator, you can make a second 4/4 Shark.
You can also stack damage via Jeska, Thrice Reborn or Furnace of Rath or others. Impact Tremors and Purphoros, God of the Forge also work wonders in this deck.
Shark Typhoon gets you even more Sharks, and these ones have Flying! :D
Want some more?! Spark Double and Sakashima of a Thousand Faces and Helm of the Host and others to bypass the legendary rule, making you get tons of Sikozen for tons of stackable Shark triggers, blowing up that activated ability!
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE
Clone Legion would net you a huge fucking 9/9 AND would DOUBLE EVERY SINGLE SHARK TOKEN IN PLAY -- AND, omg AND because the trigger is on the CAST of Clone Legion, your beefy 9/9 boi is in play when it resolves, GETTING YOU A SECOND 9/9!!!
And we haven't even BEGUN to talk about untap spells!!
Have 5x Sharks? Boom, tap for damage. Untap, BOOM GET A SHARK AND TAP FOR MOAR DAMAGE - This time 6x Sharks are seen!
Seriously this deck could go off-the-walls with interactions, and I love it so much <3
I'm probably going to build Sikozen this weekend and hope I can find a group that let's me run him :D
February 11, 2022 1:54 a.m.
TypicalTimmy The Vanilla Test is basically the ratio of MV to total PT without regard to abilities, and whether it makes sense in those colors. There are slight modifications for common abilities and color weight, but the basic test is still the same. You mention that has a MV-to-P/T restriction, that's basically the Vanilla Test in action.
To pass the Vanilla Test, a creature's MV should be about half the combined P/T. This guy is a 3/4 for MV 5, which comes in very short, especially with the heavy requirements.
It's basically a quick eyeball test of creature efficiency. If you stripped all abilities off a creatures, would it still be worthwhile for its cost? Of course, there are plenty of playable cards that fail the Vanilla Test, but those are either played exclusively for their abilities, so they're basically enchantments that can poke once in a while, or they have ways to buff themselves.
February 11, 2022 3:32 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #8
Well, 3 + 4 = 7, and half of 7 is 3.5.
So a mana value should be around 4?
But what about all of the 4/4 dragons, demons and angels who cost 6? That's 8, so shouldn't their costs be 4 and not 6?
Idk. Seems pretty flawed, to me.
February 11, 2022 2:27 p.m.
seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #9
It's not a perfect system, like many WotC uses, but it's a rule of thumb, and as that, it works well enough. Basically you start at P+T=2xMV.Depending on the colour(s) of the card, it should be below or above that rate (as you said, blue creatures tend to be lower, whereas green creatures tend to be above). Good abilities decrease the stats from there (Koma, Cosmos Serpent), drawbacks or restrictions increase them (Lupine Prototype), as well as colour-heavy casting cost (Gigantosaurus).
Starting at around MV7, you can go above the rate easier, as 7+ creatures need to be bonkers good so it's worth curving out to them or cheating them in.
Gameplay-wise, your shark seems fine as a 3/4, but from a flavour-perspective, it seems weak for such an obviously infamous and ancient predator. That plus the in it's cost makes me think it would be fine as a 5/4.
February 11, 2022 2:43 p.m.
TypicalTimmy It's just one metric out of many used to determine efficiency, and it's a very basic one. Also, it's easier to balance for adjusted P/T on the fly than adjusted mana cost, so the recommendations are going to start with P/T. Also also, skimming the 4/4s for 6 turn up three broad options: hidden efficiency (token creation, cost reduction, or self- or team buffs), cards that would be used primarily for their abilities, and underwhelming cards.
Don't take the Vanilla Test too seriously, it's far from a deal breaker. It's just one of those quick eyeballs that people use.
February 11, 2022 8:55 p.m.
Looks like a solid, balanced design to me. I'd allow it.
On the subject of p/t, I've never really noticed anything like what y'all are talking about. I mean, not like a direct, mathematical correlation between p/t and MV. Not that I think you're incorrect, just that I've never noticed it. Having said that, I think that it's important to consider number of abilities and how powerful those abilities are.
In this case, a token producer that can very quickly fill the board, coupled with a burn machine, at 5MV, is very suitably placed at 3 power. Anything higher than that, in my opinion, should merit a higher cost.
Now, if it had Islandhome instead of islandwalk, that would be different. In that case, 5/4 or even 6/5 would be appropriate. However, considering its abilities, a high power like that is superfluous, for the reasons that TypicalTimmy already stated. This is not a CMDRDMG kinda dude.
Too bad it isn't Jeskai colors, though. I'd love to see Kykar, Wind's Fury and Mirror Entity in here, hahaha. But it definitely makes more sense the way you have it.
February 11, 2022 9:20 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #12
And I apologize if I came off a bit rough or hostile here, and in other threads.
Extremely stressful right now. Hours being reduced, buying a home, throat and lungs hurting again, lack of sleep, I injured rotator cuff... I'm just in a high stress time of my life is all.
I'm sorry :( I'll try to be better <3
February 11, 2022 9:48 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #13
Epicurus, but Izzet is within Jeskai? Just run Kykar as the Commander and have Sikozen tucked away in the +99?
Though, that does open up the issue of running more than just a custom Commander. Now it's custom +99 cards. So I see the issue, there.
February 11, 2022 9:55 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #14
So I suck at building Izzet. Terrible at it. I got thinking, if I want to maximize the potential and churn out as many tokens to deal as much damage as quickly as possible, what I need is the ability to have reusable spells. Because if I have four cards in hand, all instants and sorceries, it does me no good to cast each one and never have access to it again.
Therefore, if I build a deck using the following mechanics, it'll essentially double the number of spells I have access to as I can cast them from exile, my graveyard, or return them to my hand.
- Buyback -- Buyback Example
- Flashback -- Flashback Example
- Jump-Start -- Jump-Start Example
- Rebound -- Rebound Example
- Retrace -- Retrace Example
I'm sure the deck could Storm off and use Jeska's Will and everything for an infinite loop or whatever, but as I said, I don't actually play Izzet and don't know how to build it properly. I just figured the worst thing possible is to run out of gas. So, why not have cards that can be cast twice? So if I have a hand of merely 3 cards, it's really a lot more depending on what's in the graveyard - including the 3 I can load into it.
So really, the biggest issue here is ramp. The amount of mana this deck would need is unbelievable. That might be an issue. I'm not sure.
There are plenty of ways to produce infinite mana, but the issue is having so many different combo pieces to ensure at least one can go off, that detracts from the graveyard nonsense. Plus, I'd still need to build in untap tricks and copy abilities so that he can aggro quickly.
This isn't the kind of deck you'd want to cast 1 or 2 spells, wait a turn, cast a spell, tap for 4 damage, pass, hold up mana for a counterspell, pass... you'd be dead in the waters (HA!). You need to go fast, aggressive and hard to even stand a chance.
Ugh. I'll figure it out, eventually.
Omniscience_is_life says... #2
Well, I do like sharks...
I DO like direct damage...
Maybe this is just the card for me ;)
February 9, 2022 7:56 p.m.