Posted on April 6, 2021, 1:33 a.m. by Mcat1999
Demonic Debt costs less for each Demon you control.
Pay 4 life: Put a loyalty counter on target Planeswalker you control.
Normally a Planeswalker will see their ultimate being used in about three turns. This means approximately +3 needs to be added to see their ultimate be used.
Are you willing to pay, on average, 12 life to use their ultimate immediately?
((laughs in Ajani, Mentor of Heroes ))
Well, I guess this wants to be combined with Samut, the Tested ?
It's a deck that will propably play at least some fat demons, so Samut's ultimate seems pretty incredible with it.
April 6, 2021 2:24 a.m.
seshiro_of_the_orochi, I just wanted to explore the other side of The Chain Veil . I had originally made it a Legendary Enchantment, but that didn't sit well with me as the ability is repeatable, giving you no reason to have more than one in play at a time anyway.
It was not actually designed to combo with any one Planeswalker in mind. I just found it hilarious that for, in the case of Ajani, Mentor of Heroes you can pay 16 life to gain 100 and then spend 100 life for 20 more activations on other Planeswalkers.
April 6, 2021 2:30 a.m.
That makes perfect sense. Samut is still great with it, and as she is a very underappreciated Walker, pointing it out felt omportant to me.
That Ajani combo...dayum, that's a nasty kitty.
April 6, 2021 4:37 a.m.
Play a bunch of really cheap changelings, play this for two mana, slam Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God and then just ult him to win the game. Doesn't seem like this could be abused at all...
April 6, 2021 8:10 p.m.
enpc Bunch of cheap changelings you say? Hmm, tell me when you find 'em :)
April 8, 2021 12:56 p.m.
Tzefick: In the scenario I listed, you're running blue and black. I know that colour combination isn't known for its tutoring or card draw, but I'm sure you can figure something out.
April 8, 2021 7:44 p.m.
I agree. Dimir is the worst at draw and card advantage. I hear Boros is slightly better.
April 8, 2021 8:17 p.m.
enpc What a snarky reply :)
If you're using tutors I think you can find better ways to win than this.
I might be slightly tainted by Commander's singleton format where you can max have 3x 1 CMC changelings and up to 9x 2 CMC changelings. And within Grixis that accounts 4x of the 2 CMCs and all 3x 1 CMCs. Also lowkey forgot that Modern Horizons and apparently also Kaldheim made a few new cheaper changelings. The originals from Lorwyn were generally a lot more costly.
Overall it would seem easier to just play Arcane Adaptation , Maskwood Nexus , Conspiracy , or Xenograft along with some token generators to overcome the mana reduction aspect. Even with max reduction we're still looking at spending 7 mana in a single turn, all of them colored.
As for my own view on the card: It is an interesting idea, to cheat the planeswalker limitations akin to The Chain Veil . However it would seem that in certain control decks, even in Commander, it could gather too much upside, especially in a single turn.
I know the general rule is that when two planeswalkers are sitting comfortably on the field, that player is generally winning. I would rue the day you see two planeswalkers on the field, then slap down a third and this, pump them full of loyalty counters and ult three planeswalkers, either for a direct win or to lock down the game into arch enemy mode.
I would like to see more restraint on this.
We already have The Elderspell to amass loyalty counters on a planeswalker to rush their ultimate. The problem is that it primarily relies on your enemy also playing planeswalkers to be a feel good spell.
Perhaps you could change the active ability to a triggered ability?
"Whenever an opponent casts a spell you may pay 2 life. If you do, put a loyalty counter on a planeswalker you control."
That would give the opponent a say in how many times it can be utilized. If they choose not to cast anything, they are not advancing their own board state.
Perhaps you could put in a counter on the ability:
"Pay 4 life: Put a loyalty counter on target planeswalker you control, unless an opponent pays 4 life."
Then it becomes a battle of life totals. The payment from the opponent could be mana or a greater life amount than your payment.
You could utilize counters to limit it. Put a triggered ability on it that puts counters on it, and you remove one counter along with a life payment to put a loyalty counter on a planeswalker. Then there's a cap you have to work towards.
It also makes the card less of an immediate problem, because it HAS to take time to build up.
You can play around with balancing the mana cost accordingly to reflect that it is not an immediate possible game ender.
As it is, I think it has too high a ceiling and could make do with a little restraint.
April 9, 2021 5 a.m.
Tzefick: I was simply matching your level of snarky :)
And yes, you've made my point for me. Sure, there aren't a whole tonne of cheap changelines, but again, you could play a bunch of cheap whatever creatures and then just play Arcane Adaptation to make everything changelings. My point is, there are lots of ways of making this spell cheap to play, which in turn makes certain planeswalkers quite abusable.
And even if you're paying 4-6 mana for the card, it still sits in the same space as Doubling Season + any planeswalker. Most people aren't going to let a Doubling Season stick around very long, nor are they going to let this stick around. But Doubling Season doesn't have a way of making itself cost 2 mana.
April 9, 2021 5:26 a.m.
enpc I wasn't in disagreement with the point you were making, only questioning the means to achieve it. And as you can see I agreed that the card needs some limits to be feasibly printed.