Why Rhystic Study is kinda bad.
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on March 29, 2019, 8:59 a.m. by SynergyBuild
The 'King' of card draw (No one will ever touch you Ancestral Recall , my lord and savior), Rhystic Study , is just... not good?
I mean this from a sheerly competitive setting, don't misunderstand, when you play badly around some tier 4+ jank, like any pubstomb deck, sure, run it, bad player's won't ever pay or will always pay and not determine proper card advantage and do the math or memorize the list you most likely are running.
Given you are in a competitive setting, I see many players wanting to run
Rhystic Study
in any blue deck, but it simply isn't good in most decks. Grand Arbiter Augustine IV may want it, as would some lists like Tymna/Kraum, but imagine
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Flip, a
High Tide
storm list running it, or Kess, or any of the combo decks in blue (most cEDH decks it feels) running it, and many see the issue.
3 mana card draw must at least draw you 5 cards on resolution, no wait, no nothing. 3 mana tax effects must be better than or about equal to powerlevel of Trinisphere , or they need to go.
This means that the Rhystic Study just is bad. There is a similar card however that beats it that doesn't see the casual play it should however... Mystic Remora . A true cEDH certified staple. A powerhouse on the field.
It taxes harder, is 1/3rd the price to drop, and the upkeep cost just won't get paid when it gets too expensive.
Timetwister , Windfall , and tons of other 3 mana draw exists too, think Wheel of Fortune if you are looking at another color.
The Rhystic Study just isn't powerful in that setting, any thoughts?
UpperDeckerTaco says... #3
I think you are vastly forgetting the fact that Mystic Remora is only affected by non-creature spells. Whereas, Rhystic Study is affected by all spells. And they are both better played at different stages of the game.
Mystic Remora is NOT an ideal turn 1 play in most situations, because you will not see maybe more than 1 or 2 cards from it until you have to let it hit the bin, or you are not progressing your boardstate. It is more ideal in the mid to late game, and that is where the tax really can take affect and allow you, the blue player to hold up mana, and still pay for its cumulative upkeep costs.
Rhystic Study has the opposite effect. It is a very good early play, because very rarely are individuals going to be able to pay for the tax which allows you to draw cards, or they just won't play anything, which puts them a turn behind, all the while you can progress your boardstate early on. In the mid to late game, this is where it can be very underwhelming where individuals might have enough mana to pay every time without being a big disadvantage to them.
If they are played correctly, then they are both a powerhouse for card draw. If they are not played correctly, then they are just a wasted slot. Good players will know when to take these cards and utilize them to their full potential. If a deck is built correctly, and the pilot knows how to play it, then they are really never a "hindrance".
Your argument for "wheel" effects does not have the same weight as you might think, because a good player will also know when to play those cards and when not to. You do not just say, "my hand is trash" and then cash it in for a new one, all the while giving your opponent, who had zero or 1 card in hand, a brand new hand as well unless the game state depended upon you drawing into something very specific.
Each instance has its purpose and power if played correctly.
March 29, 2019 9:23 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #4
UpperDeckerTaco I think you don't play cEDH?
You seem... severely mistaken, Mystic Remora turn 1 stops all of the Swan Songs, Spell Pierces, Mental Missteps, Gitaxian Probes, Red Elemental Blasts/Pyroblasts, Dispels, Mana Crypts, Mox Diamonds, Chrome Moxes, Sol Rings, Mana Vaults, Force of Wills, Swords to Plowshareses, Dark Rituals, [[]] and 20-30 other 0-1 mana staples from gaining advantage over you between turns 1-2, the early game. Turn 1ing a Rhystic Study isn't bad, but just isn't really the goal of it. Gaining card advantage through heavy stax is it's onyl real win scenario, which makes it win-more, not exactly what you want to be doing.
March 29, 2019 9:33 a.m.
ShutUpMokuba says... #5
My personal opinion is this: Rhystic Study is a card meant for a control deck. You have to consider that that card has basically two effects that are mutal esclusive: 1) It allows you to draw a card for each spell your opponent play 2)your opponent has to pay one mana more for each spell he plays. In a control deck every option is good because you want both of them. Point 1) is fine because you have more resources to endure untill you set up your win cond. Point 2) is fine too because your opponents are slowed down.
IMO That card is not just a draw engine. It's a card for control decks to have access to the resources in the early game or to just slow down your opponent in order to get enough time to set up your win condition.
March 29, 2019 9:38 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #6
ShutUpMokuba Fair opinion, I think you are correct. I think Browbeat has two options that an aggro deck wants. They are mutually exclusive, and both do things aggro likes, however it is a bad card in cEDH, just like Rhystic Study (ableit worse), having two good effects on a card doesn't make the card good if the cost (3 mana) is too high to get out to use said effect. Games end turns 1-4 regularly, and Rhystic Study ofte doesn't drop turn 1 where it would be useful.
March 29, 2019 9:46 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #7
Mystic Remora doesn't stop any of that turn 1. It gives you a card, maybe 2. And the next turn, you are paying another mana to keep it around to hopefully draw, yet another card but with no guarantee.
Now if they are comboing off turn 1, well then have your day good sir, but you better be on the play to get it out and draw into your Force of Will or other counterspells of that type. And if you can turn 1 Rhystic Study , I find it far more effective to do so than a turn 1 Mystic Remora in the long run of the game.
Because think of what it would take to get a Rhystic Study out turn 1: one scenario I can think of is Land, Mana Crypt , Rhystic Study , go... And now you are ahead on mana, and taxing your opponent at the start of the game. I would love for you to be my opponent and drop a turn 1 Mystic Remora on me. I will laugh and watch you pay the upkeep costs and we both will not progress our boards. COOL!
Not every instance of a cEDH game has the same progression of, turn 1, lay down 3 cards, turn 2, lay down 3 more cards, turn 3 win. Not every 99 singleton card deck is THAT consistent due to variance. If it is, then someone is fooling you and you need to get a judge involved. Because pulling off a turn 3 win consistently takes a lot of set up. And if you are familiar with the cEDH decks running around, you know what cards matter to their "combo" or wincon, and you just focus on stopping those cards.
No sensible player is going to pop off 1-3 noncreature spells a turn while you have Remora out in the first 2 to 3 turns of the game. It has the same issue Standstill has in the early game. You will just be playing land go and doing a whole lot of nothing until someone says, "Ok, my hand can beat yours, break Standstill, let you draw 3, win"
March 29, 2019 9:52 a.m.
ShutUpMokuba says... #8
SynergyBuild I understand what you mean and honestly i agree that there are better draw engines around. But in my opinion the way you handle your resources and the ability to take the right choice are key elements. That card put the opponent(s) into the condition to have to evaluate for every single spell they play if it's Worth to pay more mana or to let you draw. That can forces them to chose different spells to play from the ones they would have used. If my deck desperatly needs to draw a lot of course i won't rely only onto that single card. But as a Whole i cosider a solid card.
March 29, 2019 9:58 a.m.
majorappliance says... #9
I feel like that upper deck guy needs to play competitive pods... if your turn one mystic is preventing board state for a few turns, its impactful since those are the turns many competitive decks try to win.
March 29, 2019 10:07 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #10
ShutUpMokuba I fully agree, however, in cEDH, players make that decision either way, and I just think there are almost always better options outside of the stax lists.
March 29, 2019 10:10 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #12
majorappliance Thank you. Also, as you pay for Remora, you play more things, if they don't you gain incremental advantage such as gaining 3+ turns. You know, not a small advantage.
I'd gladly pay 1, 1, and 2 mana on 3 separate turns to gain 3 turns. Don't know about the rest of you, but 2 1 mana Time Walk s and a normal Time Walk seems a-okay.
March 29, 2019 10:12 a.m.
majorappliance says... #13
well yeah, i mean, if no one is playing spells for lets say, 3-4 turns because of mystic then, congratulations, your $2.50 card has turned these competitive decks to casual in one go.
March 29, 2019 10:16 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #14
either that or it becomes a more powerful version of Ancestral Recall with some delay... not bad?
March 29, 2019 10:21 a.m.
ShutUpMokuba says... #15
I'm not an expert of competitive cEDH so my following opinion may be totally irrelevant. However, i think that statistically, with a deck of 99 cards, you can't fully control the opening hands. Since the problem is setting the game from the stard why bothering with long term effects? I mean if by turn 4 i'm in the position in which i've alrady won or lost i don't care about long term effects. At that point i just want to have cards that allow me to draw a couple of cards now just to have more chances to get the cards i need in time. If the games in competitive cEDH are actually decided by turn 4 then Rhystic Study is bad. If they don't then i consider it still a solid card. But i repeat it, i have very little experience on competitive cEDH so my opinion may be irrelevant.
March 29, 2019 10:22 a.m.
majorappliance says... #16
usually if you are in a competitive pod, with a deck that is, lets say, less than, those cards are fine, you just need to rely on the other players stopping each other and you can win with your fair deck. otherwise, the games are short, so its no big deal. the issue about controlling your opening hand is like, meh. You build a deck and you fill it with redundancy and tutors to enable the turn 1-4 win. The card draw is just another way to solidify protection on your combo, or to stop others, in the same way a turn one tutor can get you an answer or a piece.
March 29, 2019 10:28 a.m.
ShutUpMokuba says... #17
I should watch more competitive EDH matches because i'm almost an ignorant in this matter.
March 29, 2019 10:35 a.m.
PlatinumOne says... #18
rofl Mystic Remora is garbage compared to Rhystic Study . you're trying to compare Rhystic Study to cards that only draw, or only tax. obviously each individual effect must be powered down since Rhystic Study does both. Mystic Remora 's cumulative upkeep is just too much, and the "noncreature" clause is too restrictive. smart opponents will just simply cast their creatures until Mystic Remora 's cumulative upkeep gets to be too much to pay.
have you seen the price tag on Timetwister ? did you realize Windfall is symmetrical and will likely net an opponent more cards for them than it nets for you? meaning if an opp has 3 cards in hand and you have 6 when Windfall goes to resolve, your opp just netted +3 cards while you get a net gain of 0. bonus points for your opponent if they are playing graveyard synergies.
March 30, 2019 2:11 a.m.
Matrixxx999 says... #19
I'm glad someone raised this question.
Honestly, i tried my best to give to Rhystic Study a chance. But in the end my expectations were not fulfilled.
I had a dozen games in which I did not get a single card from Rhystic Study throughout the game. Usually people just payed the tax easily.
For me this card is 3 CMC spell which does nothing in the moment when it resolves, and almost always nothing further in the game.
I think that it's bad not just in cEDH but in semi competitive too
March 30, 2019 4:08 a.m.
ShutUpMokuba says... #20
Matrixxx999 let's say one thing for sure: "it's a card really dependent on the matchups".. In my playgroup i'm one of the few control players while the majority are all aggro players. And people don't always pay because they want their best card on the field as soon as possibile. I get to draw enough to get the resources to survive usually. I'm not saying that there aren't better cards for drawing. But in my matches it works well because it either slow down my opponents or lets me draw.
If we talk about competitive games where you have to own the best cards in general because you don't know who you are facing it's one thing. But in a playgroup some cards work better than others.
March 30, 2019 4:21 a.m.
Synergy we are cool, but I really think that this was a very asinine statement because you are trying to definitively say a card is bad. I think whether or not you should play Rhystic Study HEAVILY revolves around your meta.
I also think that all those turn one cards you just named don't matter because half of those you won't see come down on turn one EVEN in cEDH with the exception of the rocks you listed.
I also want to agree with the sentiment that it's all about how the player utilizes the cards in their deck than anything.
Lastly on turn 3 if I play Rhystic Study most people I've ever played with are more concerned with building their own boardstate than paying my tax. Sure I might have 2 people pay the tax out of my 5 man pod, but that's still 2 draws. More importantly that card is going to be there until someone removes it if they do then it drew me a few cards here and there, taxed my opponents here and there, and drew a waste of spot removal to it. In my book that's a WIN! There are far scarier enchantments and artifacts I play that I'd prefer not get blown up.
March 30, 2019 11:22 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #22
Mystic turn 1 may not be that great, when you think about it.
You either skip turn 2 or do very little to draw maybe 3 cards, and then on turn 3 if you keep it around, same problem again, but you draw like 5 cards? Yeah, that kind of draw is a lot, but it comes at two costs: 1) being viewed immediately and seriously as a threat, and 2) not developing your board state a lot on the first couple turns. That’s a lot to risk.
Also, SEVEN of the spells you mentioned earlier that you’re aiming to prevent can destroy or counter Remora.
March 30, 2019 11:43 a.m.
Mystic Remora : strictly better than Rhystic Study in the context of cEDH. The cumulative upkeep is irrelevant given how fast decks ramp in cEDH.
Rhystic Study : Is definitely meta reliant, however always relevant since you honestly can't tell how you're screwing someone's curve at every point in the game without knowing what they have in hand at all times. It gets substantially better the more casual the meta is due to the typically high curve on casual decks who rather resolve something rather than pay a tax. Rhystic is best nestled in a semi-competitive meta, where your tax either hurts their tempo enough to slow them down a turn or net you cards in situations where a player is forced to play on curve in order to avoid losing tempo.
Verity Circle : Reigns supreme in comparison to Rhystic due to the prevalence of mana dorks in almost every level of EDH. If your meta lacks tapping creatures then Rhystic is definitely better.
PlatinumOne: I'm gonna go on a limb here and say you might be out of your element. No offense.
March 30, 2019 12:35 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #24
DrkNinja I said cedh, a real metagame.
cEDH as in the current metagame, constantly shifting, but very testable.
There aren't different cEDH metas.
March 30, 2019 1:35 p.m.
@SynergyBuild There are always metas, if you play with a group and they play XYZ decks that's your meta.
March 30, 2019 2:02 p.m.
For instance, is your meta more control focused? Hand disruption? Combo? Etc.
March 30, 2019 2:03 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #27
DrkNinja What do you mean? I play MTGO to get cEDH games in. The meta is currently a combo meta, filled with mostly lists oriented with high-tutor density, disruption in the form of removal, countermagic, hate, and stax, such as the following cards:
Swords to Plowshares , Red Elemental Blast , Force of Will , Blood Moon , Null Rod , Trinisphere , Nature's Claim .
It has the following deck archetypes:
Aggro lists, such as Edric, Spymaster of Trest , a turns taking combo list.
Control lists, such as Tymna/Tana Blood Pod, or GAAIV control lists.
Midrange combo decks, such as Kess turns or Yisan lists
Combo decks, such as the Kess consultation or Frogger
Teferi or Sisay stax-combo hybrids
There are Najeela tempo decks that are widely popular, though Najeela is flexible enough as a commander to fit in a wide array of decks.
Do you want me to explain all of cEDH? Because that wasn't what any of this was meant to be. I was discussing a card that I find to be bad in said format.
March 30, 2019 2:37 p.m.
...Bro first of all the people for you to be upset with I think I was the most polite.
Second, MOST of us have a playgroup and that playgroup makes up our meta, had you specified that you play MTGO I wouldn't have said a word.
Third, I stand by what I said. Rhystic Study is YOUR PERSONAL META dependent. I'm pretty sure everyone understood what I meant as others agreed with me, so I'm surprised you did not which is why I said what I said.
March 30, 2019 2:41 p.m.
I agree with DrkNinja. Honestly I'm kind of amazed you don't seem to understand the concept of a meta varying depending on who you play against. For me personally, I haven't seen Edric in ages. I mainly see Tymna Thras hulk decks. Actually, a majority of my meta are hulk decks with varying generals.
What I'm getting at is meta is subjective.
March 30, 2019 2:50 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #31
No, you can lay cEDH on the official MTGO, but on untap.in (I use) and cockatrice (from what I hear) it is easier.
March 30, 2019 2:51 p.m.
SynergyBuild
I could be wrong, but I think you may actually be the one missing some context here.
Sure, in the larger online cEDH meta as a whole,
Rhystic Study
may be bad. It's mostly good against heavier decks, not hyper fast combo decks.
However, most of us don't play online and instead play at our LGS, where the meta is a little more dynamic and locale dependent. In different metas, Rhystic Study 's performance can dramatically improve, depending on how many cards it will typically draw. Even in cEDH, if you have a very contorl/midrange heavy meta, Rhystic Study could draw 10+ cards per game. That's pretty good.
Not saying there aren't better cards, but I don't think it's quite safe to say that Rhystic Study is just a bad card.
March 30, 2019 2:55 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #33
DrkNinja I know you were more polite than most of the others, and I treated you with enough respect, though the tone I know doesn't come across well online. So I am sorry if I was rude. Your personal meta doesn't apply here. I said never said Rhystic study is always bad, I said in a specific meta.
Did you misread:
"I mean this from a sheerly competitive setting, don't misunderstand, when you play badly around some tier 4+ jank, like any pubstomb deck, sure, run it, bad player's won't ever pay or will always pay and not determine proper card advantage and do the math or memorize the list you most likely are running."
NecroPony to be fair I was just talking about archetype examples. I remember I went against edric a month or so ago, but I don't see it often.
Also, I get the EDH meta is dependent, I never said it wasn't. EDH as a whole is mostly made from playgroups is casual to some degree, or the often referred to 75%.
cEDH isn't like that. A limited number of decks can compete there, with limited strategies and archetypes being viable.
DuTogira apologies on my behalf, I won't directly respond to you, because I think the answer lies above. Also, I never did say it was a bad card, just kinda bad, or worse than it is perceived.
March 30, 2019 2:58 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #34
Brb everyone, gonna go write up "Why Cyclonic Rift is the worst card in MTG history in every situation, meta, format."
Just kidding. Though I am gonna write why it isn't ass good as it is perceived.
March 30, 2019 3 p.m.
@SynergyBuild Bruh I asked you if you'd write for me and you said school took up too much time, this would be the PERFECT stuff for you to write on my site!? WHY YOU DO DIS!?
March 30, 2019 3:05 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #38
also, I just accidentally typoed a curse word. yeaGO don't ban me pls.
March 30, 2019 3:11 p.m.
rshistorysmuf says... #39
Time Walk and Ancestral Recall are very bad choices in Commander... they are banned!
March 30, 2019 8:15 p.m.
Bazu_reupload says... #40
I want to say this articcle is garbage but I see everyone already did
Inkmoth says... #2
I find the Verity Circle to be better, for the 3 drop draw enchantment slot.
March 29, 2019 9:14 a.m.