Why Cyclonic Rift is not as good as it appears.
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on March 30, 2019, 6:11 p.m. by SynergyBuild
In EDH, when a player with a blue source and at least mana in other sources open on a field. It is a threat. It is a threat not because of a 7 mana spell, but a 2 mana spell, not a spell that deals damage, counters spell, destroys permanents, tutors, or cheats costs, but a bounce spell.
Cyclonic Rift , C-Rift, the big wave, whatever you call it, people know it as one of the strongest, most backbreaking spells in all of EDH, if not the best card in the format.
I am here to say that is isn't.
Part of my series on why other popular staples aren't good ( Phyrexian Arena , Rampant Growth ), or are simply not good in a specific way ( Rhystic Study ), I am not here to deny the power that a card like Cyclonic Rift has, but simply that it isn't a good enough card to warrant the hate or love that it receives.
Before I go over why it isn't good, I need to go over why at nearly every power level, it is good.
In casual EDH, the 50% or less, the Precons, the jank, lies it's the weakest state.
That is where all removal spells, sweepers, or countermagic is the weakest, especially bounce. If no one has threatening boards, why remove them. You'd rather spend 7 mana on a spell to improve yours most of the time, yet those games go long, the Cyclonic Rift acts as a Fog to save you, Sleep to get in for damage, or real removal if you use it on a player's end step if they have to discard just after.
Almost all cards that show heavy play at higher levels show some play at lower ones, and while the price-tag may limit it for most casual players, it does work.
At the 75% or the middle tiers of EDH, where I think EDH players mostly lie, it where it is the most powerful. IF it destroyed any number of target nonland permanents, it would be weaker, because of three reasons:
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75% decks often use permanent-based engines to support their gameplan. Think Beast Whisperer along with a deck full of cheap elves, or Paradox Engine in a deck will a lot of Temple Bell effects and mana rocks.
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These decks and their creators often expect opponents to remove threats, so have many threats to remove.
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They try to protect against sweepers, the only punishing cards for going so wide, with anti-sweepers, think Heroic Intervention , or Boros Charm , and protect against some single-target removal with effects like Darksteel Plate .
Because of this, and because indestructible and hexproof don't protect against a mass bounce effect, along with Cyclonic Rift being the only mass bounce at instant speed that doesn't affect you at all, and doesn't target, it is truly the best anti-75% sweeper by many standards.
In the competitive setting, while not bad, it is mostly relegated to being a 2 mana Chain of Vapor or a Into the Roil that doesn't draw a card, that can let a combo deck get through stax locks once in a blue moon.
Don't get me wrong, being relegated to a slightly worse Chain of Vapor isn't an insult. Chain of Vapor is possible the best removal in cEDH, as decks like Kess consultation or P-Hulk variants Laboratory Maniac wins, and for 1 blue mana, or two in the case of Cyclonic Rift , you get to bounce their wincon as they draw off an empty deck, so they lose...
That is some powerful stuff.
So why isn't it the best EDH card, an efficient spell in nearly any metagame? 2 options for removal, one that crushes many lists and the other a sleek and useful trick?
Because it isn't hyper-efficient, nor is it unbeatable, nor is it irreplaceable.
To start, many cEDH decks that run it run consistent amounts of countermagic to protect it's possible great effect, and numerous cards could fit the spot. It isn't alone. Blink of an Eye , the second Into the Roil has been used over it in many combo lists that more mana-efficient options and many forget the slot all-together, in favor of a cantrip or other removal spell like Abrade or whatever. It isn't very dominant there, and so is easy to explain why it wouldn't be amazing there.
In casual lists, Cyclonic Rift costs about as much as half of many of the casual decks, or even more than some entire casual decks that I have seen. Bringing money-cards wins there, as would a Consecrated Sphinx that costs less money, and I'd wager would have more powerful an effect. Again, an easy argument, but I believe it works.
The really hard place to argue against Cyclonic Rift on the surface is the middle tiers. The 75% lists. Legitimately, I think it is because in the 75% players don't consistently a highly interactive 'metagame'. They just prefer to be interactive 'ingame'.
This comes down to theory, however, when a deck, for example, an elf list abusing the Llanowar Elves style effects along with untap effects to keep making mana, dumping it into something like Ezuri, Renegade Leader . All of that deck and many others get shut down by Null Rod . While that card may be less powerful than other cards against any random deck, as many players know exactly what decks they face, they can play to those decks.
This means general removal, like Anguished Unmaking may be worse if artifacts and walkers don't see much play, you'd rather Mortify . Or if instant speed doesn't help you much, as a lot of City of Solitude / Dosan the Falling Leaf effects exist in your meta, Vindicate , etc.
This is pretty basic knowledge, however, the point here is that there are many, many replacements for Cyclonic Rift in different metagames, and I want to share the ones, only in mono-blue, that in the 75% are why Cyclonic Rift is overrated.
This isn't to say it isn't the best, but that if many, many replacements cost way less $$$ and are occasionally better, that one card shouldn't be considered the best in every situation.
Replacements:
Aether Gale , sorcery, only hits six things, has to hit your things if you don't have enough targets of only your opponents, targets, etc. Yes, there are reasons this is clearly worse.
Why is it better? Politically, you don't have to hit cards from players you team with. Similarly, if you like the Howling Mine on someone's field, don't bounce it. Someone Banishing Light ed someone else's threat you can't deal with? Don't bounce it.
Also, 18 cents. Compared to ~20 dollars and I think it is a steal for budget lists.
Also, it is 2 mana cheaper, despite not being an occasional Disperse .
Evacuation , the downside is simple, it doesn't hit non-creatures, and bounces your own things.
The upsides are for decks that want their own things bounced. ETB effects like Mulldrifter (You can respond to the sacrifice on evoke if you want!), Archaeomancer (infinite sweepers by returning Evacuation , or just recur another card), Duplicant , Solemn Simulacrum , etc.
It is 5 mana too, still an instant, and is only 2-3 dollars right now.
Other options for this could be AEtherize , Whelming Wave , Inundate , Engulf the Shore , Profaner of the Dead , or Scourge of Fleets if you just want mass creature bounce, each with ups and downs, some that only hit opposing creatures, some that are instants, some with graveyard synergies, etc.
For mass nonland bounce that doesn't target? There are tons of options, plenty with lower mana costs than Cyclonic Rift .
Take Coastal Breach . It does a mass bounce for just 4 mana (with 3 opponents), leaving you enough to rebuild first, and being able to be cast much faster, making up slightly for the sorcery speed.
Or Crush of Tentacles , 6 mana? 5 mana and an 8/8, it needs to be in a deck with enough cheap drops to hit surge to be worth it, but an option.
Devastation Tide is a personal favorite, if you run Aminatou, Brainstorm , a lot of scry, Mystical Tutor , Long-Term Plans , Jace, the Mind Sculptor , or are lucky, it is a 2 mana bounce everything. Really strong, however, sorcery (unless you cast it with Miracle on an opponents turn.
Run really high mana cards? Displacement Wave can be better,
Like a big creature attached? Kederekt Leviathan . It even comboes with flicker effects, or can be repeated for 2 mana with an effect like Animate Dead or 3 mana at instant speed whenever with Necromancy in black/blue.
Only need to target one player for political reasons? River's Rebuke .
A lot of one color in the meta? Wash Out
Artifacts/Enchantments? Reduce to Dreams
Even outside of bounce effects, Ixidron can do work xD
Point is, there are options. Even outside of blue, sweepers that can get around the normal protection is seriously strong. Terminus , Hallowed Burial , along with most mass exile effects in white from Play of the Game to Final Judgement / Descend upon the Sinful to the new Urza's Ruinous Blast , etc. Mercilous Eviction in W/B, the -x/-x effects in black like Toxic Deluge or Black Sun's Zenith , etc. in any color, Perilous Vault exists.
These are half of why I think Cyclonic Rift is overrated. Not because it isn't great at what it does, but that it isn't that much better than the rest.
The other half is simple.
Every color (sorry colorless) has answers to Cyclonic Rift off the top of my head.
White? Teferi's Protection , Lapse of Certainty it.
Blue? Swan Song it. Dispel it.
Black? Many lists abuse cards like Inquisition of Kozilek or other discard to remove powerful cards from opposing decks.
Red? Pyroblast or Red Elemental Blast are cEDH staples and are very efficient.
Green? Ugh... Yeah, I guess some colors don't have answers...
EDIT: griffstick said Seedtime . This is beautiful xD
(Gutteral Response if they ever make hybrid legal in mono-colored xD)
That's all. Thoughts?
That was a rather rude dismissal of your article, SynergyBuild. Honestly, I'm with Timmy. Anyone who's played with it understands how much better it is than any one of your proposed replacement cards. Seriously, Aether Gale ? You mentioned that there are downsides, but holy cow, it's a sorcery, and if you don't have six things you WANT to bounce, you can't even play it. Maybe some metas would benefit from those cards, but if they can benefit from aether gale, they can sure benefit from cyclonic drift. Rift ends games, and at instant speed, no less. Cyclonic Rift deserves every iota of the hate it gets because it does what it does the best, at instant speed, and with options to cast it for 2 mana or a devastating spell later on.
Also, what was the point of talking about swan song? That's every sorcery or instant, ever. That's not a weakness inherent to rift, speciically. Heck, its being at instant speed means you can just wait until the blue player is tapped out IF there's a blue player at all at the table.
March 30, 2019 7:14 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #4
Cipher001 did you read it? That was only mentioned for the 18 cent part.
Also, I mentioned Swan Song , and other answers as a common argument for Cyclonic Rift is that you can't protect against it, as can be done against a card like Wrath of God with Avacyn, Angel of Hope .
March 30, 2019 7:19 p.m.
Good freaking grief, yes I read it. How else could I have countered specific comments aimed at your comments? Did you read it, SynergyBuild?
March 30, 2019 7:28 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #6
Cipher001 You never aimed a comment at my comment, your last comment referenced the original post?
Did you forget to post something?
March 30, 2019 7:33 p.m.
I meant to say article critique here, but given the context that should have been apparent if you actually read the comment, something you seem to be intent on repeating redundantly. What part of "That was a rather rude dismissal of your article, SynergyBuild" isn't a comment aimed at your comment? Also, thanks for the passive aggression. It's really appreciated, and definitely shows that you know your point. The fact that you countered my comment with a statement that's blatantly wrong only serves to help your case. I'm in a bad mood already, but wow.
March 30, 2019 7:38 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #8
You seem to want to play very literally.
I never was intent on redundantly repeating, "Read the comment."
I only told people to read the post.
March 30, 2019 7:41 p.m.
You told people who were commenting to your post, AKA, they've clearly read it, to go read it. Seriously? This conversation is benefitting no-one, and I don't enjoy arguing with people like you. My recommendation to anyone else here is to not comment, you're not likely to get anything but sarcasm if you show signs of disagreeing. If you agree, though, feel free to. I'm sure you'll receive a riveting cycle of how very right you two are. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not sticking around to find out.
March 30, 2019 7:45 p.m.
ShutUpMokuba says... #10
I was hoping so badly you SynergyBuild did this thread.. As i've already said, i love this kind of threads because we discuss about card analysis in deep.
OT: Since you are going to piss off a lot of people with this i'll add something will piss off even more people: i don't like bounce spells. Unless you are facing a Zombie deck or something that has a lot of graveyard interaction those cards can only save you for a moment. Now, since i'm not trolling, i am fully aware that bounce cards are NOT useless because sometimes even a turn can decide the entire game. So, please don't come at me saying i've said that those cards don't have any sense. I'm saying that i don't like them compared to a normal removal. Sure, you may not run black/white in your deck so in that case that is your only option to remove threats from the battlefield. The problem is that your opponents still have their resources. Sure they are slowed down. But think about it: in early game you would only bounce back minor threats, no big deal for them. In late game they have a lot of mana to spend because of ramp so they'll cast back their best cards the next turn. According to me a bounce spell is super good in these situations: 1) you are in danger, you have no other solutions rather than using that card like a Fog to save you for the moment. In that case probably i want something that costs less mana, even if it's more selective. 2) Use it as win condition: i bounce everything back, i attack you, you're dead. A sort of blue version of In Garruk's Wake , but honestly are you really relying on that card to win? I'll repeat it once more because a lot of people will attack me for sure for having said that i don't like bounce spells: i don't find them useless. It's only that i like removal more. About Cyclonic Rift in particular, i think that SynergyBuild listed "a couple" of cards that do the same thing (at least) and are way cheaper.
March 30, 2019 7:47 p.m.
It's good because it's one sided and instant. You use it to bounce and clear way for a combo turn (in the case of permanent hate cards) or a lethal swing. It gives you an entire turn to work with no permanent-based resistance. None of the cards you listed do a similar thing - the point of Cyclonic Rift is not removal, but to create an opening for the win. Your theorycrafting is fine, but people are pushing back because you've misunderstood when people cast Rift and why. So not many of the arguments you make, make sense. And you've been pretty rude in defending them - you know full well this is an 'unpopular' opinion so I don't know why you didn't expect people to disagree.
March 30, 2019 8:06 p.m.
So, three things that I pick up here:
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This isn't the first one of these you've written. My thoughts are that if you want to write some articles (which is what these should be IMO) then it's worth talking to the right people and actually making them articles. It makes them more manageable as well as means that the forums aren't so clogged up with them. Don't get me wrong, I think having the discussion is fantastic and I can get behind them, however it would be talking to YeaGo about this (I'm not sure who manages the articles anymore) to do it properly.
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You're writing these in in a bit of a controversial style. I have no problem with this per se, however I can see the comment section turning pretty toxic if not managed correctly. Please keep this in mind with responses (everybody) and ensure that people are treated with respect.
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Actually on the topic here:
I'm not entirely sold on the argument here. I'll brush past the 75% mark here as we are in agreement. But in lower tiered decks, rift does just as much work as in 75% lists. This is because most decks don't have as refined ramp (i.e. they are slower) and interaction is much more scarce. So plays like rift are even more game changing against players who don't expect to see removal, giving the caster a huge board state advantage. I get that the card is ~$20 but the article isn't "Budget alternatives to Cyclonic Rift ". Not to mention we have all seen quite expensive decks that are just hot garbage.
In the competitive environment is where the card is probably weakest. But even then, as mentioned is a 2 mana bounce spell at worst. And while there are some infinite combos that are purely spell based, most of them require permanents to actually loop. When most decks are trying to win with tight mana (either to keep countermagic open or to help pay for cards like Spell Pierce ), bouncing a combo piece can often buy you a turn, which will either give other players prep time to deal with the combo, or give you time to combo out yourself (this happens a decent amount).
And in sweeper mode, it can help deal with decks like Najeela, who has become very popular recently, or help Najeela decks close out games, or help undo stax effects, or just slow down a game which is getting out of hand. Especially when timed well and paired with a Tymna the Weaver , it can help net you a few cards in hand. No, it doesn't get played as a sweeper as much in cEDH, but at 2 mana it is identical to Into the Roil .
And sure, some decks are optimising for speed and card advantage as much as possible, but the most of those decks are lighter on removal because they are pushing for the turn 2 combo. It's like saying that Lotus Petal is good/trash. It's amazing in the right setting but not always going to be an auto-include.
On the whole, I wouldn't say it's the most busted card in all of EDH, but the title of the article is insinuating (in my mind at least) that it's only ok while everybody always overhypes it. And this I disagree with. I think it's a strong card which is not out of place, no matter what level of EDH you're playing.
Just my two cents.
March 30, 2019 9:39 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #13
The only point needed here is...
If you need that much space to deny an amazing card is amazing, it's probably as good as everyone else thinks.
March 30, 2019 11:13 p.m.
So I've noticed you point out back sides and write multiple arguments against cards that are extremely popular edh cards and tbh each one I feel like you miss some major points. But also, like people are gonna play these cards because they're easy to integrate and make good answers to common deck building problems in their colors.
Also, these articles do have kind of a tone like "I know magic better than you and I think I can tell you why this card sucks constantly." Like it's one thing to criticize a card, but it's another thing to criticize like multiple fan favorites for what really seems like trying to cause controversy.
Also, there's nothing wrong with instead pointing out rarely used cards that should be played more in place of commonly used cards you think are bad.
March 31, 2019 1:33 a.m.
griffstick says... #15
Not reading anything and saying this is wrong. I've lost so many games to cyclonic rift
March 31, 2019 3:30 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #17
ShutUpMokuba I did do this one?
abby315 The whole point was for people to disagree... otherwise, I wouldn't have asked for thoughts or posted this? Also, there are many ways to use C-Rift, it is a versatile card, however, using it on endsteps as you mentioned doesn't mean you can't get attacked for a turn cycle (haste), it doesn't even necessarily give you resistance to permanent based hate. Aven Mindcensor , Notion Thief , Containment Priest , Cast Out , Alms Collector , Venser, Shaper Savant , Mystic Snake , Frilled Mystic , Seal Away , and Stasis Snare are flash hate permanents I could name off of the top of my head.
griffstick Sorry about that, you could use the point I made at the end if you want more answers to it. I hope that helps!
enpc I think at that point in a competitive game, Winds of Rebuke for decks like Kess, Blink of an Eye or Into the Roil are better most of the time anyway, and while C-Rift is another option, all of them are equal enough that I am sure you can see why it isn't a dominant spell in that metagame.
For casual, I said it clearly was really strong, no doubt. Just that when you want to spend 20 bucks in a casual meta, there are better options.
March 31, 2019 10:21 a.m.
griffstick says... #18
I have got the green Cyclonic Rift answer. It's called Seedtime
March 31, 2019 11 a.m. Edited.
CrimsonKing says... #20
Been playing cedh for too long to not even bother arguing anything here. Rift is good.
March 31, 2019 12:40 p.m.
CrimsonKing says... #21
It's very good in decks like Kess who hurt against stax. Bounce spells like Cyclonic Rift and Into the Roil that have utility help out alot. Having redundancy is good.
March 31, 2019 12:59 p.m.
Before you tell me, yes, I did read your entire article. And I must agree with the comments of Last_Laugh and TypicalTimmy. Cyclonic Rift is every bit as good as its reputation says. It's good enough for me to play in Muldrotha, the Gravetide , and has saved multiple games for both me and for others who play it. Ever seen it in Baral, Chief of Compliance ? This is an instant speed, one-sided board wipe. And it hits everything that an opponent plays. Is it the best spell in the format? No. Is it unanswerable? Certainly not. But it has a shocking amount of utility, and unlike every other "replacement" you offered, it is an unconditional mass removal spell that misses your own things. And again, it is instant speed, one-sided board wipe. This cannot be overstated enough.
March 31, 2019 2:57 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #23
CrimsonKing Do you mean Kess consultation, storm or turns?
The metagame has way too many Kess variants IMO xD (Najeela beats it tho)
March 31, 2019 5:32 p.m.
SynergyBuild: I'll tackle this in two parts:
First, let's talk casual. I know you've mentioned that it's good - we are in agreement there and I'm not questioning whether or not you see the value. My biggest point here though is that as per the title of the thread is "Why Cyclonic Rift is not as good as it appears", which is what I (and I think many others) are disagreeing with. If the title of the thread was "Why Cyclonic Rift isn't always the best choice" then I think there would be a lot more people agreeing with you, however you wouldn't get the shock value you're going for.
So touching on the topic of price for a minute. Under the original context of the thread, price is irrelevant in my opinion. Price should never affect the assessment of the playability of a card. Obtainability, yes, but playability, never. So in this context, budget alternatives are nice but all that should be compared is the text on the card, not the price below it.
Now moving onto said card text. Ignoring the fact that most of the alternatives you listed are there because of budget, one major thing that stands out is most of the options listed are sorceries. While yes, you can float a bunch of mana before bouncing things, you often times will run into the issue where you still won't be mana positive in this situation (since there is a higher emphasis on land ramp/ next to no emphasis on ramp at all depending on who you talk to). So in this situation, often times you can't replay as many things as you would be able to if somebody else had cast the spell.
Talking politically, this is where some of the other spells have some benefit. Normally when somebody rifts, there will not be a positive reaction from the rest of the table, due to the fact that a) it's a board wipe of sorts and b) it's asymmetrical. At least with most of the other board wipes, they affect you as much as the other players, so it's generally a defensive move only. In a casual setting, this is probably the biggest selling point for running other spells over rift, however I do not think that it reduces the playability of the card.
Secondly, lets move onto competitive play. I agree that in competitive environments, not only are deck slots super valuable but there is much more of a focus on single point, cheap to cost removal (I know you didn't say this directly, but it stands out from some counter-card choices you listed. And we both know this to be the case). In this situation I think it comes down to the build of the deck and the meta you play in. Because in competitive circles, every card slot should be assessed for deck optimisation.
A solid example of this is my Paradox Scepter Thrasios list. In it, I happily run Rift for a few reasons. The first is that my meta is quite creature heavy and while I also run deluge, having more than one board wipe is worthwhile. On top of that, it gives me single target bounce to get through stax, or mass bounce to get through more stax. It helps against Sisay and Najeela (both in my meta). And since I use a lot of dorks, having an asymmetric wipe is super useful.
I get that not every deck wants to run it though. As mentioned, Kess decks would much prefer the flexibility of multiple card draws from roil, or the pseudo card advantage of rebuke. But at the end of the day, it doesn't make rift worse, just because some decks don't want to run it.
And that's the kicker of it all. You can make the card look worse by looking at the decks it's not strongest in. But stretching the statement "Cyclonic Rift is good but might not be the best fit in your deck" into "Cyclonic Rift is overrated and too many people play it" is just that, a bit of a stretch. Again, there are good replacements for it. But these also don't make it worse as most of these replacements are either due to specific streamlining of a deck, your meta or your budget.
April 1, 2019 1:22 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #25
enpc Do you really think there isn't a better anti-stax card that hurts Sisay/Najeela than Cyclonic Rift ?
As we are in agreement on the casual side, and most of the competitive side, and all of the 75%, I think this is the last part to iron out, excluding my name, which was used as to not push it too far from my other pieces.
April 1, 2019 9:31 a.m.
SynergyBuild: I think that Cyclonic Rift works well against both of the aforementioned decks, as well as giving me flexibility against others as well. And just because there might be a better card against those two decks does not mean it will be as good against the rest of my play group. But this is what I'm trying to get at - now we're down to brass tacks here. We are talking about meta selections for very specific and minute optimisations (which may or may not help) and are straying away from the original topic. A topic which you have agreed with my counter-argument on, might I add (unless I am mistaken).
So looking back at macro for a second, my overarching point is that we (both yourself and myself) have undermined the premise of this thread. I am happy to have a discussion around cards which might be better suited to my deck and to my meta to help squeeze that last little bit of value out, however that is a completely different discussion. That being said, one little niche case is not enough to make the statement "Why Cyclonic Rift is not as good as it appears" in my and I'm assuming many other players' minds, since for the most part it has been shown to be as good as most people think it is.
Now, back to your statement around other options, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on potential replacements.
April 1, 2019 6:22 p.m.
Coward_Token says... #27
OT: Kind of a tangent but when you mentioned Null Rod as being anti-elves, did you really mean Cursed Totem ? Or is there a lot of artifacts that help untap creatures that I'm missing? (I've never really gotten into elfball.)
May 18, 2019 11:05 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #28
I have considered making a series on all of EDH, misconception s, part of All About EDH, but it is a maybe for now. I have a lot of work to do, so spending a ton on here is not something I plan on doing soon to finish this all up. Thanks!
May 18, 2019 6:33 p.m.
bagelheart says... #29
Poorly written. Unorganized, aimless, fallacious. Toxic response to everyone who disagrees because all perspectives that differ from his are 'misconception'. I give this article a solid 2/10 for effort. Nice try.
August 20, 2019 12:13 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #30
bagelheart xD did you spend the last 3 months on that reply?
SynergyBuild says... #2
TypicalTimmy
Cool, did you read it?
March 30, 2019 6:58 p.m.