The combo potential with this card wins you the game.
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Oct. 16, 2020, 9:01 p.m. by griffstick
How many ways can we win with this card?
Is there a way to make everyone lose the game at the same time?
You know all those cards that say the game is a draw?
Maybe people need to think about Lich's Mirror as a way to win rather than a way not to lose.
Dredge4life says... #3
It’s pretty great with Channel, but other than that, it leaves a lot to be desired.
October 16, 2020 9:34 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #4
Unless you Armageddon and some player plays a flashy Wrath of God, I don't know how you can recover, unless you know, your opponent is at 1 life with a Bitterblossom on the field.
October 16, 2020 10:44 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #5
Problem is it's rarely worth it. It's cool, yes, and basically everyone wants it to be good. But it's the kind of effect where the difference between unplayable and a format breaking card is so small that there's no way to balance it with MtG mechanics.
At 5 mana it sucks. If you took off one mana at a time you'd see unplayable, unplayable, unplayable, unplayable, broken beyond belief.
October 16, 2020 11:25 p.m.
seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #6
Convulted combo:
Control Mirror Gallery and Lich's Mastery. Turn Mastery into a creature, then play kicked Rite of Replication targeting Mastery. Then donate one copy to each opponent using Bazaar Trader with Freed from the Real. Cast Lich's Mirror and then cast something to destroy all enchantments at once.
You might need infinite mana for this btw...
October 17, 2020 6:55 a.m.
griffstick says... #7
That confused the shit our of me.
Over night I thought that a good place for this card is in a Neheb, the Eternal deck. Usually in neheb decks they try to win with a big X spell like idk how about Fault Line but if you are not ahead in life then this will not work. But with Lich's Mirror it does. You can put X at 99,000 and kill yourself too. But not die, because lich's mirror. Then you win
October 17, 2020 8:29 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #8
Heartless Hidetsugu and damage modifiers like Furnace of Rath, Dictate of the Twin Gods, Fiery Emancipation, Insult / Injury.
Shadowspear and Loxodon Warhammer will work as good in breaking the symmetry, but redundancy is key in singleton, you could use this too.
How much your table will like playing against a deck like that, I can't vouch for, but that's probably the best way to force a win with this card.
October 17, 2020 9:02 a.m.
griffstick says... #9
I not saying this card is gonna break the format but perhaps people should start looking at it.
October 17, 2020 9:05 a.m.
griffstick says... #10
Rules for this card
10/1/2008
Lich's Mirror replaces the game-loss event if you would lose the game in the following ways: -- As a state-based action for having 0 or less life. -- As a state-based action for having tried to draw a card from an empty library since the last time state-based actions were checked. -- As a state-based action for having ten or more poison counters (though this isn’t that helpful; see below). -- Because an ability (such as the one from Immortal Coil) states that you do so.
10/1/2008
Lich’s Mirror has no effect if a spell or ability (such as the one from Helix Pinnacle) states that a player “wins the game.” If a player wins the game, the game ends immediately. 10/1/2008 Lich’s Mirror has no effect if you concede the game. If you concede, you’ll lose.
10/1/2008
If you can’t lose the game (for example, you control a Platinum Angel), Lich’s Mirror won’t do anything.
10/1/2008
Lich’s Mirror shuffles permanents you own into your library, regardless of who controls them.
10/1/2008
Lich’s Mirror shuffles tokens you own into your library, too. The tokens you own will leave play. However, there’s no point to physically shuffling tokens into your library because you can’t draw them as part of Lich’s Mirror’s effect and they’ll cease to exist immediately afterwards.
10/1/2008
Any abilities that trigger when the permanents leave the battlefield will be put on the stack after Lich’s Mirror’s entire effect has been applied.
10/1/2008
Lich’s Mirror doesn’t affect spells on the stack, cards that have been exiled, or permanents you control but don’t own. They’ll stay where they are. Spells on the stack will then resolve as normal.
10/1/2008
Although Lich’s Mirror has you draw a hand of seven cards and sets your life total to 20, this isn’t a game restart. You can’t take a mulligan if you don’t like your new hand of cards.
10/1/2008
For your life total to become 20, you actually gain or lose the necessary amount of life. Keep in mind that you may have a negative life total when this happens. For example, if your life total is -4 when you would lose the game, Lich’s Mirror’s effect will cause you to gain 24 life. Other cards that interact with life gain or life loss will interact with this effect accordingly.
10/1/2008
As part of Lich's Mirror's effect, it typically shuffles itself into your library. If it does, that means that if you'd lose the game again immediately after its effect is finished, it can't help you a second time. This can occur in a few different ways. For example: -- You have ten or more poison counters. Lich's Mirror doesn't remove poison counters. If you'd lose the game this way, you'll do what Lich's Mirror says, then you'll lose the game the next time state-based actions are checked. -- Your life total is 0 or less and an effect says that you can't gain life. Since your life total can't be raised, it stays at whatever it is rather than becoming 20, and you'll lose the game the next time state-based actions are checked. -- The number of nontoken permanents you own plus the number of cards in your hand, graveyard, and library is less than seven. When you try to draw seven cards as part of Lich's Mirror's effect, you'll be unable to complete at least one of those draws and you'll lose the game the next time state-based actions are checked. -- You control but don't own a permanent such as Immortal Coil with a triggered ability that causes you to lose the game when a certain game state happens (also known as a “state trigger”), and the condition that causes the “lose the game” ability to trigger hasn't changed. If you owned the permanent, Lich's Mirror would shuffle it into your library. In this case, however, it remains on the battlefield and its ability will trigger again.
10/1/2008
If you control but don’t own Lich’s Mirror, Lich’s Mirror itself will still be on the battlefield after its effect is finished. If you would lose the game again for any of the reasons above, Lich’s Mirror has its effect again . . . and again . . . and again. An involuntary infinite loop will be created, and the game will end in a draw. (In the case of the triggered ability example given last in the list above, it’s possible that a player could cause the loop to end while the ability is on the stack. None of the loops caused by state-based actions can be stopped at all.)
10/1/2008
If all the players remaining in a game would lose simultaneously but one of them controls Lich’s Mirror, that player does what Lich’s Mirror says instead of losing, and everyone else loses. As a result, the controller of Lich’s Mirror wins the game because all of their opponents have lost. (If Lich’s Mirror weren’t in the picture, then the game would be a draw.)
10/1/2008
If a spell causes you to lose the game the next time state-based actions are checked (by dealing damage to you greater than your life total, for example), that spell will already be in the graveyard by the time Lich’s Mirror’s effect happens. If it’s in your graveyard, it will be shuffled into your library.
10/1/2008
If, during a check of state-based actions, you’d lose the game at the same time a creature you own would be put into your graveyard (due to an Earthquake for 10 or combat damage dealt to both you and the creature, for example), that creature’s controller has a choice to make. The state-based actions rule is trying to simultaneously (a) shuffle that creature card into your library (due to Lich’s Mirror’s replacement effect) and (b) put it into your graveyard. Only one of those things can happen. The creature’s controller chooses which one. If the creature is put into your graveyard, it isn’t shuffled into your library. Abilities that trigger when that creature is put into a graveyard will trigger only if that option is chosen.
10/1/2008
If, during a check of state-based actions, you’d lose the game for multiple reasons (for example, if you were at 1 life and had one card in your library, then Night’s Whisper caused you to draw two cards and lose 2 life), a single Lich’s Mirror will replace all of them. You’ll do what Lich’s Mirror says just once.
10/1/2009
A token’s owner is the player under whose control it entered the battlefield.
6/15/2010
In a Two-Headed Giant game, if your team would lose the game and you control Lich’s Mirror, your team won’t lose. Instead, you’ll do what Lich’s Mirror says and your teammate won’t do anything. This is true even if the reason your team would lose is because your teammate tried to draw a card with an empty library or was affected by an ability that said they lost the game. Your life total (which is the same as your team’s life total) becomes 20. Your team’s life total is adjusted by the amount of life you gain or lose as a result of this, which basically means your team’s life total becomes 20.
October 17, 2020 9:21 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #11
Having to read a novel and explaining that novel to the entire table every time you try to win with this card may also be why people seem discouraged to make full use out of this card '^^
October 17, 2020 9:25 a.m.
So I COULD see potential for Lich's Mirror in something like my Nekusar deck. Infinite mill is not the goal of the deck, but there are one or two infinite combos that would result in a win this way. However, there are times where I would draw out before my opponents would, or they have way too much life to be killed by the ping damage, or they have one of the old Eldrazi Titans in their deck and I cannot get them through mill alone but need more cards than I can afford to ping the to death. Lich's Mirror would enable me to stack as many triggers as I would need to secure a win where I would lose as well. The only problem would be when Lich's Mirror triggers and Nekusar goes to the command zone, the ping damage stops.
October 17, 2020 9:49 a.m.
VampDemigod says... #13
seshiro_of_the_orochi I forget how exactly the mastery triggers go on the stack, but I seem to remember something about the active player’s abilities going on first. If I’m remembering correctly, your combo doesn’t need the mirror, your opponents will die before your triggers even resolve. If I’m wrong, you just need an instant-speed wipe. Just saying.
October 17, 2020 11:05 a.m.
seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #14
VampDemigod: APNAP, making Lich's Mirror obsolete since 2020 ;)
October 17, 2020 11:07 a.m.
VampDemigod says... #15
Still love the combo, just realized that mastery might not have a chance to shine.
I’m sure there are some great “we all die at once” combos.
October 17, 2020 11:21 a.m.
FormOverFunction says... #16
If it has you shuffle all your tokens into your library, would that be a way to trigger Battle of Wits, before they disappear “afterwards?” I’m not sure how that fits into “the beginning of your upkeep.
I love the idea of giving this card more looks, though, as it’s /way/ up there on the theme-graph!
October 17, 2020 7:16 p.m.
Lich's Mirror seems to be either an unnecessary win-more card or a very bad card to try to keep from losing a game with.
For example; Doing something that makes everyone lose but you because of the mirror. Why not just use something that makes all opponents lose instead?
Or using it as a version of Platinum Angel but instead of keeping your board state, you sacrifice your board state. Why not just replace the mirror with the Platinum Angel?
October 17, 2020 8:05 p.m. Edited.
plakjekaas says... #18
Because drawing the game with Molten Vortex and Harmless Offering, handing out your Lich's Mirror seems hilarious, which is something Platinum Angel won't be able to do.
(If you're dealt lethal damage with Lich's Mirror under your control, but you don't own it, it won't shuffle itself back in. Molten Vortex will prevent your life total from being raised to 20, so when state based actions are checked, you will lose again and the mirror will trigger again, and again, and again, making this an infinite loop that keeps itself going, and therefore draws the game)
October 17, 2020 8:22 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #19
Which is basically a convoluted win-more combo piece, in the end. I'm of the opinion that Lich's Mirror is a style card you play to impress the table with, not a card to win as many games with as you can.
FormOverFunction : I'm afraid there's no way to make that work, the Tokens will stop existing any moment state based actions are checked, which means pretty much every moment between spells and abilities resolving on the stack. The moment the Mirror's trigger is done resolving and before the Battle of Wits trigger of winning the game will resolve, the Tokens will already have disappeared, way before the moment Battle of Wits can check how many cards are in your deck.
October 17, 2020 8:33 p.m.
Animate it into a 5/5 amd connect 24 times till everyone is dead. Bam, linear combo right there!
October 18, 2020 12:34 a.m. Edited.
I got it.
Lich's Mirror + Hive Mind + Last Chance OR Final Fortune
Personally though, you could substitute Lich's Mirror for Angel's Grace and still win that way too.
October 18, 2020 5 a.m.
VampDemigod says... #22
Yeah, but lich’s mastery can be on the battlefield beforehand and you can cast one of the “extra _, lose the game at the end step” cards. It requires less mana. Just a 4-drop, a 6 drop, and any of near 10 0 to 5-drops.
October 18, 2020 9:24 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #23
FormOverFunction: There is no way for this to work with Battle of Wits. Tokens are not cards, even if they are represented by something that looks like a card.
October 18, 2020 9:39 a.m.
Suspence89 says... #26
I guess it's less of a combo and more of a threatening insurance to deter your opponents from making you lose. Extractor Demon of course you'll need a very large number of permanents in which case you'll probably have something much more useful to do with them than not lose. Idk Mirror is fascinating but more of a big stretch.
October 30, 2020 10:55 p.m.
Assuming EDH/Commander, A funny way is to donate Lich's Mirror to someone who is about to die to infect, or commander damage.
This will keep them in a loop of losing the game, shuffling and drawing and losing the game again because the reset to 20 life has no bearing on Infect/commander damage losses, and they don't shuffle away the lich's mirror because they don't own it.
At least I think that's how it works.
November 2, 2020 8:58 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #29
“Hey bud, keep reshuffling your deck. I’ll Naturalize that when I get bored.”
November 2, 2020 9:11 p.m.
Note its a unending loop so the game will be a draw unless the person losing scoops.... but honestly choosing between dying first or sticking it to someone else by forcing the game to be a draw is kinda funny
November 2, 2020 10:10 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #31
1: It’s not a draw, it just keeps going till they scoop. 2: You can stop it with instant speed artifact removal.
November 2, 2020 11:32 p.m.
It would be a draw. You didnt win and they didnt lose.I dont think they even get to choose to scoop if it's a death because of a state-based action.
You cant even break the loop if they die because of a state-based action because you wont get priority. It will just keep happening forever.
November 3, 2020 12:58 a.m.
102.3a A player can concede the game at any time. A player who concedes leaves the game immediately. He or she loses the game.
Concedes do not use the stack. You could 1000% concede to let the game continue without you... or be a fun sport and force the draw :P
MagicMarc is partly correct. 704.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 117, “Timing and Priority”), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event. If any state-based actions are performed as a result of a check, the check is repeated; otherwise all triggered abilities that are waiting to be put on the stack are put on the stack, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based actions have been performed as the result of a check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, the appropriate player gets priority. This process also occurs during the cleanup step (see rule 514), except that if no state-based actions are performed as the result of the step’s first check and no triggered abilities are waiting to be put on the stack, then no player gets priority and the step ends.
So if you responded to the lich's mirror trigger, naturalise cast also gives players priority which means state based actions are checked again so you "lose" again which makes it
Lich Mirror - Infinite Naturalise Lich Mirror - 1st trigger
November 3, 2020 6:06 a.m.
^ the above was assuming if you could respond at all to the lich's Mirror, but on closer inspection it's a replacement effect, not a trigger.
November 3, 2020 6:10 a.m.
griffstick says... #35
What about a morph card that destroys an artifact. Flipping a morph card doesnt use the stack
November 3, 2020 8:32 a.m.
You wont get priority to be able to flip it.
There is a ruling under Lich's Mirror at the Gatherer regarding the specific issue if you are dying to state-based actions. It's in the middle of all the rulings. It talks specifically about if you don't own but control the mirror and something like poison counters is trying to kill you. Pasted from Gatherer;
If you control but don’t own Lich’s Mirror, Lich’s Mirror itself will still be on the battlefield after its effect is finished. If you would lose the game again for any of the reasons above, Lich’s Mirror has its effect again . . . and again . . . and again. An involuntary infinite loop will be created, and the game will end in a draw. (In the case of the triggered ability example given last in the list above, it’s possible that a player could cause the loop to end while the ability is on the stack. None of the loops caused by state-based actions can be stopped at all.).
November 3, 2020 11:19 a.m.
Baumeras thank you for the note about Conceding the game. I thought so, but was not sure if you had to wait for a cleanup to resolve before you could declare you quit.
November 3, 2020 11:22 a.m.
griffstick says... #39
I know a few people who consider bringing the game to an infinite unstoppable loop draw as their way of "winning the game". But everyone else knows it's a draw. But it feels like that the player who created the loop for the game to be a draw just won. Because he or she created the infinite loop draw.
November 3, 2020 11:32 a.m. Edited.
I agree griffstick, For casual play, I always concede to a very cool combo. Especially if I never saw it coming. It's not important enough to fight over it being a draw.
I am a fan of janky wins...
November 3, 2020 11:38 a.m.
Metroid_Hybrid says... #41
I can picture Lich's Mirror in a particularly evil Stax deck that aims play this, Donate it to someone else, kill them (maybe via Mill), then find a way to pass it off on to another player before they die. Repeat the process until there's nothing left on the board except your lock pieces, thus forcing the table to conceed (before Exiling you from the playgroup for being such a terrible person lol)..
November 3, 2020 6:46 p.m. Edited.
MagicMarc All good. I think if we were in the same playgroup we'd be the best of friends since I'm the Janky Combo Guy who somehow is competitive at most of the stores I play at in Sydney Australia.
griffstick I'm so glad that more people are using morphs now. The amount of stuff you can get away with is so good. E.g Cast a spell, Stack a split second spell, then unmorph Mischievous Quanar to copy the spell and put it on top of the split second spell. Janky way to make spells uncounterable :P
November 3, 2020 7:30 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #43
Fractured Identity that Lich's Mirror for ultimate group hug.
Or you can run something like Notion Thief and whatnot as well as some way to kill everyone and then just draw a ton.
Caerwyn says... #2
The problem is Lich's Mirror is not a great card. It takes a lot of work to ensure everyone loses the game simultaneously--you can just as easily set up a combo where you win/everyone else loses, both of which do not require you to also have a Lich's Mirror on the field.
Outside of a potential victory from a total wipe, the card is fairly useless. You cannot easily recover from losing all your permanents, particularly since it does not harm everyone else's board. At best, you are buying yourself a few extra turns, but you are unlikely to pull victory from the ashes.
Also, this would not work with Divine Intervention - when you draw the game, you are not losing, so the replacement effect will not work.
All that said, I would find this quite amusing to see as a janky combo; it just is not going to be a particularly good one.
October 16, 2020 9:14 p.m.