Sheldon From The RC is doing an AMA

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on Feb. 27, 2020, 2:38 a.m. by ToffMcSoft

Everyone, Sheldon is doing an AMA. I've already posted asking about the flash ban. Would help if others do the same. If we made it the most common question asked it's got to have some clout.

Feel free to ask him anything though. I have a personal vendetta against Flash and wouldn't miss the card one bit.

https://twitter.com/SheldonMenery/status/1232438980332810242?s=20

hejtmane says... #2

Why does flash need to be banned ? Sorry from the majority of the playgroups it is a non issue. It is only an issue in a fraction of decks played at a level 99.5% of the meta never plays

February 27, 2020 11:57 a.m.

Ojallday says... #3

hejtmane that is some very weak reasoning. The reasons in my mind that it needs to be banned for is because a) it was banned previously and b) it is causing problems for part of our community. Even if the competitive groups don't make up the majority of players that doesnt mean their opinions and concerns should be ignored. It would be the same as arguing that you're option counts for nothing because you make up an insignificant portion of the community. But your opinion does matter, and so do the voices of others in the community.

February 27, 2020 12:36 p.m.

xtechnetia says... #4

I don't think Flash was ever banned previously. Protean Hulk was, but if you're only going to ban one of the two, Flash is undoubtedly the superior choice.

Anyways, the primary reason to be against a Flash ban is that it sets what is a troubling precedent for some players: the RC banning on competitive grounds (and really only competitive grounds), making EDH more like every other format in existence.

Every non-rotating constructed format in existence, over time, trends towards increased speed, efficiency, and consistency. Your sweet 20 mana 6 card combo that takes 5 turns to setup is assuredly brutally outclassed by something like (Legacy example) Swamp -> Dark Ritual -> Entomb -> Reanimate Griselbrand.

EDH is the one notable format which sort of holds this trend at bay thanks to various factors, which is a large reason for its continued popularity. And banning Flash, to some players, says that the RC acknowledges competitive EDH and will perhaps continue to ban with them in mind, potentially fucking with casual decks in the process (like right now I'm sure someone out there has some janky Flash->Arena Rector superfriends deck that they would really appreciate holding onto).

This isn't to say I personally am against a Flash ban, this is just me trying to explain why a Flash ban could be considered troubling.

February 27, 2020 1:39 p.m.

hejtmane says... #5

Wait my argument is valid based on the RC's stated banning list and the edh spirit just because the format is solved does not mean it needs to be banned. Sorry people can spout what ever they want but at the end of the day a non competitive format that is solved is not a reason to ban a card. At the end of the day it is about the casual player not the competitive player which has formats with ban list geared towards that style of play. Why do we have to accept the ban ? See the the answer can be no; but some do not want to accept that answer.

The end of the day a solved non competitive format that the majority does not care that it is solved and has no effect on the way they play the game.

February 27, 2020 2:09 p.m. Edited.

Nemesis says... #6

You know what I love about reasoning like this? It basically comes down to "oh, this isn't an issue for us, it's just an issue for them. That's totally fine by me." You know what that tells me? "oh, if I make it an issue for them, then they'll ban it." That's not exactly the nicest way to deal with issues. Why does your fun matter more than mine? Because you make up the majority? Well fine, social contract be damned, I'll bring my flash hulk decks to casual games and stomp people.

February 27, 2020 3 p.m.

GhostChieftain says... #7

The thing is, although there is a small portion of the player base that it effects it is still a fair number of people. This combo is the only combo that requires 0 board state, can be done at instant speed, and has turn 0 potential.

"The primary focus of the list is on cards which are problematic because of their extreme consistency, ubiquity, and/or ability to restrict others’ opportunities." -Commander Philosophy

A turn 0 win is undoubtedly problematic and restricts all players opportunities to even draw a single card. It is very consistent due to all the tutors allowed for the combo and once flash resolves there is very little a player can do most of the time apart from stifle effects.

If you compare flash to the recently banned iona it probably effects roughly the same amount of players. Sure, there are a lot of players that play mono colored decks, but how many of them have an iona played against them? Flash hulk effects nearly every cEDH player. Also, players have time to do things before an iona whereas with flash there is no guarantee they even get to draw a card.

The worst part about this whole thing is that if flash isn't banned the cEDH community will not be able to do anything about it due to the fact that we are trying to play EDH as efficiently as possible and as are unable to rule 0 problematic cards away. Some of us are only able to play online and then even if we wanted to house rules wouldn't really work. It is a very frustrating thing because our meta has over the past year seen a ban that ruined a lot of deck archetypes and made the game less diverse for us as well as a printing that put one already too good archetype so over the top that it absorbed another good archetype and as a result made the game less diverse for us.

February 27, 2020 3:12 p.m.

GhostChieftain says... #8

Nemesis that last sentence in your comment is the wrong reaction to this issue and will make more people think we are just pubstompers. Admittedly that was my reaction as well at first, just the hope that others would see just how much of a problem this is because some local pubstomper would go in and wreck people but that will only increase the divide and make those of us that are actually looking to play a competitive game vs other competitive players look worse.

I really don't think you meant it because you seem like a reasonable person, but I can never be sure when it is through text.

February 27, 2020 3:18 p.m.

Nemesis says... #9

Yeah, I definitely don't mean it. But honestly at some point I've just come to the realization that the community does think of us as a completely different group and the RC treats us that way. It's hard not to feel dismissed because my fun doesn't align perfectly with the majority's. And, frankly, the community as a whole has that kind of behavior coming to them if they're going to keep "not my problem"ing the situation.

I'd take no enjoyment out of it and it's not something I condone, but I understand the feeling of wanting to do literally anything to be heard.

February 27, 2020 4:51 p.m.

hejtmane says... #10

I seen that threat so many times now from the cedh crowd basically throwing a temper tantrum while if we do not get are way we will just pub stomp. How does that make you any different than the supposed pubstompers now. Guess what that is easy to handle if people have any sense at all I just pick my cards up go play at a different table leaving you by yourself. Look I am sorry the non competitive format is solved at turn zero and overall the majority are not effected in fact most casual players would tell you cyclonic rift is probably their biggest issue a card cedh players do not use. Welcome to the majority matters more than the fringe players sorry the cedh crowd is even smaller than the people who post on reddit, tappedout etc and we are a very very small % of the player base that's life and we are not the focus of the RC.

February 27, 2020 4:55 p.m.

hejtmane a couple things here. The cEDH crowd 100% uses cyclonic rift. Maybe not in every single deck, but it is pretty ubiquitous because it is cheap removal early and can super wreck plans late game.

Secondly, this dismissive attitude you have right now is pretty disheartening. We don't want to wreck the format. We love the format. It is just that we have found something broken that can be fixed easily without effecting the majority of the player base and we are being ignored and dismissed and actively told that we are playing our favorite format in an incorrect manner because our fun is less important than the fun of others.

February 27, 2020 5:13 p.m.

hejtmane says... #12

That is how the rest of the player base feels about modern, standard etc when people just tell them to get good and just buy 1k decks. Those are competitive formats the reason commander is so popular is it is not focused on competitive play. Look I am a minority edh player I post on the forums I research cards etc. I accepted that but I also embraced the casual part of edh and I am content.

Note I purposely do not build certain edh decks because I play at an LGS and we are set at a certain power level that makes it welcoming to new players. I am alright with that I accepted that most players that play edh are content in that range and if I want to play at a higher deck level I need to play that with a different group.

That is life being in the minority as a player sometimes you have to just except it is what it is; even when it sucks.

February 27, 2020 5:31 p.m.

Serious question I have to ask you here. Is a turn 0, no board state, instant speed win something that you see as going along with the spirit of the format?

February 27, 2020 5:40 p.m.

hejtmane says... #14

Yes if your play group is willing to play it then the answer is why yes of course.

Lets be honest here edh is broken by nature there is no real way to balance the format at a competitive level with out eating a ton of bans there are so many broken cards and combos.

February 27, 2020 5:46 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #15

The only reason anyone gives for Flash to remain in the format pretty much boils down to "eh, cEDH dug its own grave with its Rule 0. No reason that we should ban cards in a casual setting because it's bad for cEDH."

That's not a strong enough reason to condemn an entire section of the meta to stale, solved gameplay, particularly over a card with little casual application. If you look at EDHREC stats, you'll see there is a good reason no one has offered an affirmative reason for Flash to remain in EDH--there is only one casual deck (Rayami) that runs flash in a high proportion. Even for Rayami, Flash isn't necessary for the deck to function. A ban of Flash would have little to no impact on the casual meta.

Keeping Flash in EDH means we are imposing a high burden on a significant minority of players, to prevent imposing a low burden on an even smaller number of players. The balance of the equities clearly favor a Flash ban--that so many people, most of whom probably do not even run Flash, are demanding it remain in the format seems somewhat disingenuous.

February 27, 2020 5:51 p.m.

Caerwyn: I find myself in the weird position where I agree with your statement but also with the reason you say most people give who are against the banning.

If you're shooting to play at max power, you kind of reap what you sow there. This new Fish Hulk deck seems like the apotheosis of cEDH to me.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to banning Flash in the least. Personally though I am wary of the precedent it may set. Emphasis on the may.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I see where both sides are coming from, and I don't think there is a solution that will appease all involved. I'm very curious to hear how Sheldon addresses this with all the attention that has been brought to it in the community at large.

February 27, 2020 7:14 p.m.

griffstick says... #17

Flash occurrence in decks from the last year

Commander / EDH: All decks: 0.01%

Source link here

February 27, 2020 7:17 p.m. Edited.

griffstick says... #18

Protean Hulk occurrence in decks from the last year

Commander / EDH: All decks: 0.04%

Golgari: 0.2%

Source is the same

February 27, 2020 7:20 p.m.

Megalomania says... #19

As mentioned before, cEDH is a format which is geared towards efficiency. A deck which needs 0 board state with a turn 0 potential sounds very efficient to me. Are we banning the combo simply because it has become so efficient that it has “solved the format”?

There are also claims that Flash Hulk negatively affects the format’s diversity. Isn’t the decrease in diversity a natural result of decks becoming more and more efficient?

February 27, 2020 8:54 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #20

Megalomania - The primary goal is not efficiency, but to play a healthy format in the most efficient way possible. Those might seem like the same thing, but they are not.

It’s no different than any other highly competitive format. Take Standard - lots of people like playing a healthy Standard at the highest possible level. However, for the health of the game, sometimes the Okos need to be banned.

Fish Hulk also has the added problem that no one is actually playing Magic. Everyone is sitting about waiting for someone to combo off and get in a counter war, so they can just use their combo once everyone else is tapped out.

When it’s better for everyone to pass and do nothing, hoping someone else goes for the win first, that’s hardly a healthy meta.

February 27, 2020 9:16 p.m.

Megalomania cEDH is EDH it is not a different format, it is simply shorthand for "this deck is a 9 or 10"

February 27, 2020 9:18 p.m.

Megalomania says... #22

GhostChieftain I meant community or group or whatever it should be called. Point is, this subset (is it a subset? English isn’t my first language) of EDH is pushing for efficiency but would rather have the most efficient combo to date banned from the entire format. It is for the same reason that Caerwyn comparison of EDH to other formats is inaccurate. Anyways, I do understand that it presents a problem to the cEDH community.

Bottom line is, EDH continues to be a casual format with a competitive subset. I’ve seen a lot of people complaining about cards like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, infinite loops, etc. The response from cEDH folks has always been “talk to your group and see if majority will agree on banning said cards/card interactions”. Maybe the same should be applied here. If we can’t convince our own groups to agree on banning Flash or the Hulk then maybe it isn’t as big of a problem as we would like to believe.

February 27, 2020 10:08 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #23

Playing with your friends

"Oh sure man I won't play the flash hulk deck"

Playing at any official commander related event

You're going to see Flash Protean Hulk

What happens if Flash is banned

Casual playgroups can ignore the ban, just like they can ignore every other ban.

Why ban Flash?

Its a non-intrusive ban. Practically no casual decks run it. It saves the competitive community a huge head ache. We are asking for others to throw us a bone as an act of good faith to show we're all one community. Sometimes we need a bit of help, sometimes casual players need a bit of help. Currently, we really need help.

February 28, 2020 1:33 a.m.

hejtmane says... #24

Except the casual community got none on the paradox engine ban they got the opposite run more interaction, get good the card is not broken, not understanding what was happening at causal tables. Then again the only time people care about bans in the forums etc is when it is based on power. You really want me to believe that those players that make up a small % of player are magically going to support a ban of a card that is not base on power. Right and I got a bridge to sell some people.

February 28, 2020 7:57 a.m.

A lot of the competitive players were upset about losing pengine. Losing it made it so some viable cEDH decks lost their main win con and can no longer function at the same level, effectively making it so those decks aren't seen anymore. With the flash ban nobody really loses much. A lot of the flash players I know want flash to be banned but still play it because it is good. If banned they will probably transition to cst because it is most of the same cards but unable to t0 people.

I am sorry you have seen people telling you to get good because they were upset. Effectively the same reaction as deciding to pubstomp to show how busted flash is.

Truthfully paradox engine is not broken in my eyes though, at least no more busted than any other combo piece that can end the game. It is just something that if you aren't practiced with it in the deck it will make the turns take forever and I can see how that ruins the fun for people. I am a bit sad about the loss of it, but I 100% get it.

February 28, 2020 8:21 a.m.

Gleeock says... #26

Not my problem :) But isn't cEDH just one big arms race anyway? If this isn't top dog something else will be.

February 28, 2020 8:24 a.m.

hejtmane says... #27

I don't care about what they say but the same people screaming for a ban are upset a portion of the same community they treated with disdain over a ban because it was not about power they now want them to ban a card that does not warp the overall meta. They get it is busted with certain cards but in their mind it is no different than the other 500 busted infinite combos that get played turn zero to turn 4 before they even have a board state. Most casual players are like whatever.

February 28, 2020 9:26 a.m.

Nemesis says... #28

So... what's your point here? The casual side should continue to ignore the competitive side because they shouldn't have to make an effort to see the other side? That's a great unifying message to send.

You know what's hilarious about literally every single thread regarding cEDH? The huge sweeping generalizations people use when talking about that part of the EDH community. Believe it or not, most cEDH players didn't treat casual players with disdain over the ban, most just said "oh well, that sucks", removed the card, and moved on. Just because you've been slighted in some way, real or imagined, doesn't make the entire community as toxic as you like to pretend. And frankly, the level of ostracization the cEDH community sees due to having a different definition of fun than that of the casual community only serves to paint the casual side as toxic and exclusive.

There is a gap here that people can bridge. It will never happen if both sides continue with the "not my problem" mentality though.

February 28, 2020 9:37 a.m.

Ojallday says... #29

It would appear that the prevailing arguments are, on one side, a group believes that an overbearing combo needs to be addressed. Whether it be to ban flash or even rebanning hulk since these would be the least intrusive choices. In the opposition, the position is that addressing this situation will legitimize a competitive mindset in what is considered a casual format and those that are apathetic to the entire situation.

Personally I think that a ban would help bring some fun back into the format for a subset of our community,which is in keeping in the spirit of EDH. To the opposition I don't believe that addressing the problem will set a precedent of the RC only banning for competitive play. Just looking at the current ban list it looks to me that plenty of cards are banned because of their overly competitive nature, which includes the power nine (minus timetwister), time vault, channel, and fast bond. In casual deck these cards don't outright win the game but provide an advantage for the player. I think that flash in particular falls into this category and hulk to a lesser extent. As for the apathetic standpoint; I guess that it is just that, a standpoint. There is no argument if you are apathetic, you don't care, and if that is the case than you don't really have a horse in this race do you? It's fine of you don't care, but it isn't an argument against or for the banning of a card.

February 28, 2020 9:39 a.m.

hejtmane says... #30

Not what I saw; but what ever I am just telling you that is how many casual feel. Me personally I do not give a crap if you like me hate me or what ever. Hell I do not even care if you agree with me I am not here to be liked or have people pat me on the back and agree. I can just tell you what I observe and I seen and what a lot of non competitive players I seen express.

February 28, 2020 9:43 a.m.

Caerwyn says... #31

Megalomania

While I understand the formats have different base goals, the mindset of competitive Commander and competitive Standard/other format players is still similar and comparable. No one wants to play a solved format where one deck has a disproportionate win rate. That leads to stale, repetitive gameplay that's not particularly fun for anyone.

And there really is no need for it. The RC is perfectly capable of approaching bans from both directions--banning cards that are problematic from a casual perspective, and, more rarely, banning cards that are problematic at a highly competitive level.

I think it is also important to note that the RC actively encourages casual players to come up with their own rules and banlists, so they can always, by agreement, mix up their meta some. That is not an option for cEDH players--part of playing competitively is playing within the confines of the rules.

hejtmane

Cutting through your ramblings, you are making the exact kind of "disingenuous" posts that I mentioned in my first on this thread. You are complaining about cEDH players and their treatment of casual players, and seem to be treating cEDH players with disdain in kind.

Yes, there are issues with some competitive players being rude. Yes, there were a lot of competitive players who cried havoc when Paradox Engine was banned and who refused to read the rather well-reasoned explanation of the RC.

No, none of that gives casual players an excuse to treat the entire cEDH meta with the almost vindictive desire to see them suffer through keeping Flash unbanned. There are always bad apples in every bunch--that doesn't mean we should hold the entire group responsible for their actions.

As for Flash lines being "no different than the other 500 busted infinite combos", that's flat wrong.

Flash lines are busted because they can be cast at instant speed, on top of a full stack. That's the real reason cEDH players want a ban--if multiple players are running Fish Hulk, any of them can win on top of the other.

Picture how the game works:

Player A casts Flash. Players B and C get in a counter war with Player A. Players B, C, and A are all tapped out and have no more counters. The stack is now full of Flash, Counters, Etc. Player D casts Flash. It resolves first, they win the game.

That's a problem. With the meta skewing toward Flash, no one can effectively combo out without risking someone else just putting their own Flash on the top of the stack.


Again, I have seen lots of people arguing "eh, we know what the cEDH community really wants" but no one saying "this is an affirmative reason for Flash to stick around."

February 28, 2020 9:56 a.m. Edited.

hejtmane says... #32

I know they are different; I understand the difference with that said to most casual players they do not see a difference even if you play against them with that deck it looks the same to them.

Once again I do not care that a meta not built around competitive being solved; I been pretty straight forward with that feeling. I am find with not caring about the other sides feelings sorry but I just personally do not care. I do not think I been disingenuous at all I been very open; I just find it ironic that people are mad that they are now on the other end of the stick.

Look I am not making an excuse; I am telling you the reality most casual players are glad the other end is having problems to them they reap what they sown. That is human nature funny how that works when reality comes back and bites people in the arse. Hell this will eventually bite me in the arse. Yes my comments will come back and bite me I know they will; but I am ok with outcome. I will put by big boy pants on and take what ever I got coming my way it will be well deserved.

February 28, 2020 10:19 a.m.

hejtmane How does flash becoming banned effect you? You are just taking the spiteful stance of they get what they deserve because we are playing the same format you play in a different way, in a way that you think is wrong. How does flash effect you in the least bit?

February 28, 2020 10:26 a.m.

It seems obvious to me that this has nothing to do with Flash itself. The card is irrelevant in the context of the argument from the more casual (though I hate using that word) perspective.

This has more to do with one set of players feeling that the way they play the game is being influenced by a group that they do not generally interact with.

The argument can be taken both ways; that neither side really wants their banlist shaped heavily by the other (e.g the Paradox Engine ban vs the new discussion of a Flash ban).

February 28, 2020 10:40 a.m.

Ojallday says... #35

GhostChieftain I wouldn't bother man, he seems like a low quality troll. He thinks he has everyone riled up, but in reality I think we are all trying to figure out why he keeps commenting when he clearly has nothing to say.

February 28, 2020 11:09 a.m.

hejtmane says... #36

Woot that makes me the Albino Troll. That means I win a prize

February 28, 2020 11:48 a.m.

dingusdingo says... #37

Its funny that Paradox Engine is brought up, because that is a card that most competitive players have no problem with, but was banned for the sake of casual decks. Despite it breaking numerous fun competitive decks, the cEDH community has swallowed the ban for the most part and adjusted how we play for the sake of casual groups. We are willing to give up a fun toy that adds many viable decks because we understand how much of a head ache that card is for casual decks. We are now asking that casual players do the same for us, on a card that casual decks don't even run.

There's a pretty big difference here though. Casual decks aren't running Flash, while tons of competitive decks ran Paradox Engine. The casual ban splashed competitive players far worse than our proposed competitive ban will splash casual players. Especially with how narrow this ban is, and how little it effects casual players, it is frustrating that people aren't willing to work with us or understand how this is a problem for a lot of competitive players.

If the casual side of EDH stays quiet and doesn't speak out for us, I foresee the format splitting over this issue. Flash is a major problem for the competitive community in a big way. There are all kinds of cheap, efficient combos for winning, but this one warps the meta in an unhealthy way and narrows the viable decks from a wide field to a very narrow field. The cEDH people love EDH just as much as the casual crowd, and splitting is the last thing many of us wish for the format, but players are simply unwilling to stay in an unhealthy format. We are working in good faith here, intentionally asking for a very small ban, on a card that doesn't see casual play, with no splash towards other decks. We don't have a laundry list of 10-20 cards, we aren't trying to get your casual superfriends deck banned and we aren't trying to wreck any archetypes besides one very specific deck that casual players would not want to play against anyways. At the end of the day, a casual group always has the option to ignore a ban. Competitive players don't. This is why we need to get things onto the ban list every once in a while.

I am at this point known for flaming around these forums, so take my sincere tone and kind words as a sign of how dire the situation is. The competitive community is asking for help. You can either reach out with an open hand or a middle finger. If you do the second, don't be surprised when players begin calling for a new format.

February 28, 2020 3:53 p.m.

ToffMcSoft says... #38

dingusdingo Couldn't agree more. cEDH needs it's own RC and banlist. It's clear that Sheldon and the RC is too disconnected from cEDH.

Only things that changes Sheldons mind is where a card stands on the fun meter. Zero understanding of cEDH and what the community want & needs.

To be frank, he's an idiot when it comes to deciding banned cards.

February 28, 2020 5:13 p.m.

hejtmane says... #39

I am going to make statement and i have no feelings or stance on this statement.

I am only writing what I seen posted on many forms and Reddit for the last two years now. I seen a lot of people thinking you should make your own cedh rc and split. This is not me being an arse just my observation from reading forums and Reddit take for what it is just an observation.

Now do what ever you got to do;I get it does not matter if we see eye to eye or agree at least you voiced your view. Hey maybe all this will help your cause good luck either way it goes. Just don't forget when you make fun of me later i am the Albino Troll

February 28, 2020 5:32 p.m. Edited.

Caerwyn says... #40

I strongly disagree with cEDH needing its own banlist and RC, though I do think it would be a good idea to have some more cEDH representation on the RC.

Splitting a community is bad for everyone involved. It makes it harder to move from one table to the next; it makes it harder for you to know what to bring to a new meta.

There’s no reason EDH can’t cater to both casual and competitive environments. The RC can continue to ban cards that are problematic in casual, while simultaneously banning the very few cards that lead to a stale competitive meta game. I think most players on both sides of the spectrum would be fine with using two different criteria for creating the banlist.

February 28, 2020 5:49 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #41

Alright let's examine the various groups and see how a Flash ban impacts them.

Casual Players

The unbelievably small amount of casual players using Flash will have to find a new card. Overall, casual players benefit as they will no longer get Flash Hulk'd on turn 1 while playing their fun casual deck.

Its a win for casual

People who hate getting pubstomped

The #1 biggest pubstomper deck has been disabled by a ban

Its a win for people who hate pubstompers

Competitive Players

The meta warping tier 0 deck has been disabled by a ban. As a result, the pool of viable competitive decks grows from a small handful to a large handful. This is the standard used by Wizards to determine if a meta is healthy. It makes the competitive EDH healthier

Its a win for competitive players

Flash Hulk Players

Can now play one of 30 different decks instead of one of 2 different top decks. Every single card besides Flash they have inside their Flash Hulk deck will be viable in those other 30 decks.

Its a win for Flash Hulk players

Sheldon & the RC

This ban impacts Sheldon & Co. by showing they listen to the community and care for the format. This is a great example of how being malleable and working with all sides of the community lets them keep their independence.

Look how Wizards bans for every other format, top-down. If you want your casual centered ban list to stay, its better to give an inch than have a mile taken. If Wizards has to assume control, it will be much more hands on than the RC has done up until this point.

Banning Flash is a win for Sheldon & RC

Spiteful Casual Players who don't like cEDH Existing

Imagine all decks as a number between 0 and 100 for power level. We will say Sushi Hulk is at 100. If the next closest deck to Sushi Hulk is at a 90, then someone who is playing a 1 is going to do better against a 90 than a 100. Someone playing a 27 is going to do better against a 90 than a 100. The strength's of each deck are closer, for a more well balanced pod.

If you wish for EDH to be a more casual format, banning out the 10/10 deck is going to help keep it casual.

What if you're the kind of spiteful casual player who just dislikes the whole concept of efficiency? Well if there are enough of you, the format will split. The cEDH format will be tailored entirely to competitive play, meanwhile the regular EDH format will still have the problem that is Flash Protean Hulk and people will continue to play it in regular EDH events. Also, consider how that would impact events

  • Two formats for commander
  • cEDH is geared towards being played in events, LGS, commandfest, GP's, or anywhere people are competing
  • EDH is not geared towards competing
  • cEDH has a banlist with the goal of having a diverse competitive meta
  • EDH has two top decks because of how the ban list is structured
  • cEDH would be easier for casual decks to win without the tier 0 deck present
  • EDH would be harder for casual decks to win with the tier 0 deck present

I would bet within a year you would not be able to find a sanctioned EDH event if the two split. If the formats did split, the ban list for cEDH would include further changes from the current EDH list than simply the banning of Flash, which would make it harder for EDH players to modify decks to fit within cEDH events. Everyone who plays anywhere would have confusion and turmoil for approximately 6 months as shops and players begin to learn they must specify the format, and some places or players choosing only one of the two formats to host.

February 28, 2020 6:49 p.m.

Gleeock says... #42

There doesn't need to be any banning AT ALL, anywhere... much less segmented bannings. If a subset of people needs to be governed or regulated in order to not do something lame, that is on them. This is the problem with playing arms-race EDH. When the shoe is on the other foot I am always told that players playing this hobby game should have some big girly discussion about it all. Where is that here? Where are all the cEDH players saying to have some big friggen pow-wow girly discussion before all their games? Your Albino Troll has nothing on me :)

February 28, 2020 10:45 p.m.

The reason cEDH games require no discussion is because we do not house rule, we play using the rules exactly as written. We are the only ones that really use flash and we are the ones asking for the ban so our meta is healthy and we can continue to use the rules as written. Our plea for the banning is a form of self regulation because we do not have the authority to change the rules on our own for what is or isn't allowed, that distinction goes to the RC. The most we can do to change it without house ruling (which we will not do) is to make our case and hope for the best.

Also why the hostility toward discussion and why the misogyny with using girly as a detractor in your sentences? Seems unnecessary and rude to a group of people that you don't belong to.

February 29, 2020 12:48 a.m.

Gleeock says... #44

Majority EDH "casuals" don't worry about house rules either. Just play the game as is & use common sense & a little bit of self-control. A governing body isn't needed to decide these things, if a subset of players just cannot help themselves that is a bummer.

If prize events/competitions are killing self-control too much, then there are much more creative solutions than bannings... Incentivizing or disincentivizing would be 2 ways.

February 29, 2020 10:13 a.m.

You are Totally Lost. How would we incentivize or disincentivize for what is effectively a world wide playgroup? You suggesting of that is basically just telling us to house rule every cEDH deck in existence and that wont work because we use the rules at mtgcommander.net exactly as written. It is also not just prize events/competitions. It is also us having fun on any given wednesday, friday, or sunday. It also is cracking some cold ones with the bois to relax. Sure, I could push to regulate the few of ourselves that I know that play each other a lot, but why not have the best deck one can for when we actually do events? It is not that fish hulk players have no self control. They play it simply because it is fast, grindy, resilient, controlly, and has a backup wincon that is considered the 2nd best way to win because it slots in so nicely with what they already have.

February 29, 2020 11:18 a.m.

Gleeock says... #46

Events & competitions can easily do this, they can do it in a standardized way if they so choose. Otherwise, restrictions placed across a broad spectrum for a subgroup will have downstream effects, They just do. I will always vote a hard "no" on this kind of regulation. The rules "as written" don't tell anyone they have to play this card, just because the option is available does not mean they have to play it. The last part of your paragraph is just is another way of saying some competitive players cannot resist this hackneyed wincon... So it should be taken from everyone?

February 29, 2020 12:07 p.m.

ToffMcSoft says... #47

The fact that Paradox Engine was banned and not Flash should speak to how bad the RC is at making choices.

Paradox Engine was the staple for multiple EDH decks. So many unique builds vanished upon the PE ban.

These builds weren't even all that strong. Maybe a few decks that are "Top 10" caliber.

Flash Hulk though... The most powerful, fastest and now most common cEDH deck. The RC needs to not go off numbers on EDHrec and go off what shows up at cEDH events.

I assure you Sheldon must have lost to Paradox Engine, cried about it and banned the card.

Should just play Fish Hulk against the RC a bunch, it'll get banned real fast.

February 29, 2020 12:39 p.m.

Gleeock short answer, yes. It is a busted card that should get banned.

ToffMcSoft pengine ban was annoying but understandable. Also, no you shouldn't pubstomp the rc.

I have spent too much time spinning my wheels on this thread, so with this I bid you adieu.

February 29, 2020 12:48 p.m.

Gleeock says... #49

Not a busted card on its own, it's only as busted as the players making the busted choices. The RC will always get this reaction as long as they play a restrictive role. Short answer is that there should be no bans at all.

February 29, 2020 2:27 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #50

Ah yes, Gleeock, the misogynistic poster who revels in the term "troll".

That real scary pre game discussion

"What are you guys on? Casual decks? Fun I brought my Kami of the Crescent Moon deck."

"Are we trying to go competitive boys? Neat I've got my Najeela deck ready to roll!"

Lol I know being antisocial is common in this community but if you seriously believe asking questions to gain relevant information is a gendered skill you aren't going to make it far in this world.

"Events & competitions can easily do this, they can do it in a standardized way if they so choose."

A standardized way, like BANNING THE CARD?

"Otherwise, restrictions placed across a broad spectrum for a subgroup will have downstream effects, They just do"

Cite speculation as such please. If its not speculation, please specifically tell us which decks are impacted by the Flash ban.

"The rules "as written" don't tell anyone they have to play this card, just because the option is available does not mean they have to play it."

The rules as written allow for Shock to be played over Lightning Bolt, but every player slots one over the other when both are available.

Rules as written don't specify Dredge as a deck archetype in Vintage but you'd be foolish to ignore the effect Dredge decks have (and had) on the metagame.

Ignoring that players want to win in a competitive game isn't doing anybody favors for making the game more enjoyable for all to play.

"Not a busted card on its own, it's only as busted as the players making the busted choices. The RC will always get this reaction as long as they play a restrictive role. Short answer is that there should be no bans at all."

"Yeah guys Time Walk isn't even a busted card, its what you do on the extra turn that really breaks it"

That's the beautiful part about the internet. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. We both provide what we think is relevant evidence, and the noble reader forms their own opinion after perusing the posts.

At this point I believe any reader or poster who looks through this thread will realize that there are two sides. One is a subgroup of players making a passionate and well reasoned argument for the banning of a card. The other is a group who, although not impacted by the proposed ban, would rather see the subgroup unhappy because ??? A handful of reasons given, mostly just spite though.

March 2, 2020 12:15 a.m.

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