Planeswalkers as Commanders
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on March 18, 2019, 12:20 p.m. by AkrosTheClear
I have heard that there has been a lot of discussion around a possible rules change in EDH that will allow any planeswalker to take on the role of commander, but other than the episode of the command zone podcast on the subject I haven't heard any discussion. So with the new planeswalker set coming out and having recently made a deck that has
Arlinn Kord
Flip as the commander I thought I would float the question out to you guys and see what you have to say on the matter.
Are there any planeswalkers that you would love to have as your commander, or any you'd hate to see your opponent playing?
Personally, I think that any legendary card should be able to command a deck with the same rules that apply to creatures. This would further encourage the variety that the format of EDH is famous for.
ZendikariWol says... #3
mmm...
While I don’t think planeswalker commanders would be altogether harmful, I do see a few issues.
1) You said that any legendary permanent should be allowed as a commander. I disagree. Strongly. Boseiju, Who Shelters All and Serra's Sanctum would be extraordinarily powerful, not to mention Kamahl's Druidic Vow , Urza's Ruinous Blast , or Karn's Temporal Sundering !? It would be very, very scary.
2) As much as I love the idea of walker commanders, it does sort of cheapen the C14 commanders and the Rowan Kenrith and Will Kenrith deal.
March 18, 2019 1:22 p.m.
Honestly any permanent that is legendary would be horrific. That being said, it'd be interesting having something like the Gideon's as commanders.
March 18, 2019 1:51 p.m.
KingMathoro says... #5
While I disagree with the idea that any legendary permanent should be allowed as a commander, I do think it would be quite enjoyable if walkers could be commanders. I think the new Serra walker that is coming out would be extremely fun. Although this is not to say that there couldn't be degenerate combos that could be made with certain walkers as there already are some out there. But I do think we could ban certain ones at that point.
In short, bring on walkers as commanders!
March 18, 2019 4:20 p.m.
Suns_Champion says... #6
As much as I'd love to legally play Elspeth, Sun's Champion as my commander, I think allowing all planeswalkers as commanders would be a bad idea.
I'm with JLK of the Command Zone here; 'Walker commanders slow the game down. A lot. Everybody is too worried about attack the commanders that the player's life totals stay at 40 for way longer.
Planeswalkers played from the 99 slow the game down, I can't imagine that happening every game. As a former superfriends player, I can say that having multiple planeswalkers on the board makes turns long, tedious, and grindy. Then the game becomes a mini-game of killing whatever walker is closest to ultimate-ing. It is unfun. I took apart my planeswalker deck.
While introducing 140 new commanders to the format would create a lot of new and awesome decks, it would warp the format. 140 new decks could easily destable metas and card prices. Cheap evasive creatures would be on the rise, which are great for controlling 'walkers but not good for killing players, meaning longer games again, etc.
And to just touch on a few that would be nightmares to play against: Gideon of the Trials , Karn Liberated , Liliana of the Veil , Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh , Sorin Markov , Ugin, the Spirit Dragon .
The commander format is amazing and extremely popular. Don't fix what isn't broken.
March 18, 2019 6:30 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #7
ZendikariWol: a lot of the cards you mentioned aren't permanents. they are sorceries...
March 18, 2019 8:40 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #8
Yes, PlatinumOne, I did. Note that Jeff up there said “any legendary card”, not “any legendary permanent.”
March 18, 2019 9:28 p.m.
triproberts12 says... #9
I think it would be awful. Every green deck would be the equivalent of Teferi, Temporal Archmage / The Chain Veil combo with Doubling Season . I think a good compromise would be to allow walkers and other cards like the Bushi Tenderfoot cycle that transform into legendary creatures be played as commanders. Apart from lands, for which commander tax has some rules issues, most legends could work. People have already speculated that we might be getting the reverse of the Magic Origins/ Nicol Bolas, the Ravager Flip flip walkers to represent planeswalkers loosing their spark in the upcoming set.
March 18, 2019 11:40 p.m.
DrukenReaps says... #10
My own playgroup already allows walkers as commanders and I've done my own testing. Some are really broken but not any more so than say Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + Curiosity . I think banning something like Sorin Markov , which a lot of people would want, would be a mistake. It is one of the few walkers that would lead to faster games.
That said I get people's complaint of games being longer. It is pretty valid. I for one enjoy 3 hour games but for most people much more than an hour is too much.
March 19, 2019 1:45 a.m.
PlatinumOne says... #11
ZendikariWol: note that YOU said "legendary permanent".
triproberts12: its highly unlikely the planeswalkers will be losing their spark.
March 19, 2019 2:06 a.m.
PlatinumOne says... #12
i for one think that allowing any planeswalker as a commander would be great. the arguments against it just seem weak imo. broken combos? like commander doesn't have that already? they slow the game down? use creatures. attack the planeswalkers. use cards that destroy any permanent or at least walkers. Dreadbore , Hero's Downfall , Beast Within , Assassin's Trophy , Abrupt Decay , Vindicate , Anguished Unmaking etc. you're worried about players using multiple walkers every turn and their turn taking too long? that happens already. 1 additional planeswalker is insignificant. not to mention the problem is the fault of the player, not the fault of the planeswalkers.
March 19, 2019 2:16 a.m.
triproberts12 says... #13
PlatinumOne, happens all the time. Teferi, Karn, Ob Nixilis. Wizards has confirmed there are going to be 32 walkers in the upcoming set, with one in every pack. Between that and the trailer, seems like flip walkers could be an easy way to not wreck standard. Also, Wizards likes to print flip cards in bulk, like they did for Innistrad.
March 19, 2019 8:04 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #14
PlatinumOne they two were in separate clauses- note the commas and light segue “, not to mention”, which implies a related but still separate statement supporting the first.
I’m an english major. My career options may be limited but my chances to apply my knowledge are not.
Anyway yeah, Walkers would impose an unnecessary deckbuilding restriction on everyone- forcing them to play walker removal and more creatures. See, you actually kind of stated the counterargument to your own point- the only colors with actual walker removal are black, black/red, and some in black/white. Green has a couple removal spells for them but not a lot, red has damage spells ig, but blue... evasive creatures? All of those are tiny or overcosted. So basically 4/5 two-color combos have to kill all the walkers with creature damage and maybe the odd Lightning Bolt ? Any monocolor deck that’s not black has nothing. Tricolor is fine as long as one of them is black and one (or more) of them is either red, white, or both.
So... tricolor meta here we come? Love that for you, plat.
March 19, 2019 8:35 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #15
And I know it’s kinda nitpicking, triproberts12, but it’s thirty-six, which is somehow even more insane than thirty-two.
March 19, 2019 8:36 a.m.
PlatinumOne says... #16
ZendikariWol: your exact words were "you said any legendary permanent should be allowed as a commander".
March 19, 2019 7:57 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #17
ZendikariWol: i did not in any way counter argue my own point. the cards i mentioned were just mere examples. green can attack with creatures, and blue has counterspells. the idea that "any monocolor deck thats not black has nothing" is just false. attack with creatures. a walker as a commander does not in any way force anyone to do anything that they weren't already doing before. its ONE planeswalker. ONE card. find one of the MANY ways to destroy it, and watch the opponent weep as they waste another turn casting it with an additional 2 to the mana cost.
March 19, 2019 8:03 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #18
The question isn’t whether it’s possible, PlatinumOne, the question is whether it will enhance the overall gaming experience. Do you know what a pain in the ass it is to remove a planeswalker with creature damage when the WHOLE BOARD isn’t in on it? Hint: it’s extraordinarily obnoxious.
And anyway, yes, you made a very easy counterargument to your own point. Your answer was clear to , , and , but for every other color, you basically said “get creatures forehead”. This would make mardu, orzhov, and rakdos stupid powerful color combos and risks creating a very stale meta.
March 19, 2019 9:38 p.m.
Imagine a world where Grimoire of the Dead can be a commander
March 19, 2019 9:42 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #20
ZendikariWol how are you having so much trouble attacking a planeswalker? and NO, i did NOT make a counter argument to my own point. the fact you think otherwise just proves you're not paying attention. a planeswalker as a commander would not make red or white or black combinations "stupid powerful". did you know blue has counterspells? pretty sure i already said that. as for green, creatures is green's thing. creatures is what green does best, better than any other color. the meta would not be stale. the commander is just ONE of 100 cards. 1% of the deck. if what you are saying was even remotely true, atraxa superfriends would be the end-all be-all of commander and nothing else would come even remotely close because according to you, "planeswalkers are too powerful". atraxa would already be banned.
let me put it this way. lets say you're playing a 60 card format and win game 1. your opponent sideboards in just 1 single card. 1 of 60 is 1.66% (whereas again, the commander is just 1% of its deck). are you really gonna be worried about that 1 single card changing the whole outcome of the game? of course not. and it makes even less sense to worry about 1 in 100 than 1 in 60.
March 19, 2019 10:23 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #21
Wargles: that wouldn't be that bad. the entire deck would have to be colorless, and you'd have to hope and pray that nobody plays any artifact removal before your 7th turn.
March 19, 2019 10:25 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #22
Why do I have so much trouble attacking a walker?
1) expendable creatures- especially in an aristocrat or token deck.
2) big-butt creatures- walls, or most of the creatures in the Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis deck my buddy runs.
3) pillow forts- Haunter of Nightveil effects, Crawlspace , etc.
4) rattlesnakes- particularly Ophiomancer and Ogre Slumlord .
Blue does have counterspells, yes. But for a counter to be effective, two criteria have to be met:
1) you need to be in a place where you can keep 2 or 3 mana up, which often means not casting a spell or activating an ability when you want to.
2) the countered threat needs to be worth the loss of a card, which stalling a commander temporarily is not, unless your opponent won’t be able to cast him for the next few turns.
These criteria can’t consistently be met before you hit 6-ish mana. Counters are just a loss of card advantage against a commander, except in some very specific cases.
Also your argument based on the odds of drawing a given card is invalid in the case of a commander, which you will have invariably every single game.
Anyway. You’re right, PlatinumOne, I have been hating on planeswalkers a lot, for all of the above reasons. I think they slow down gameplay significantly and are overall obnoxious to play against.
March 19, 2019 11:25 p.m.
PlatinumOne says... #23
ZendikariWol: i never made an argument about "odds of drawing a card". im talking about the percentage of space in a deck that a given card will occupy. a planeswalker commander is just 1 card. theres over 60 other spells to also worry about (depending on land count). players who use counterspells already take your criteria into account when deckbuilding, and can definitely be met before 6 mana. we also have to take into account the mana cost of casting those walkers repeatedly. lets assume a cmc 4 walker to estimate on the low end. the player casts it, it gets countered. they cast it again for 6, it gets attacked and killed. do they really wanna pay 8 to cast it a 3rd time, even if they did mana ramp that high? if the walker started at a cmc of higher than 4, or is removed more than twice, it'll cost absurd amounts of mana to play it again. at that point, you should be more worried about any other cards/combo's they felt they needed that kind of ramp for.
the hate against walkers is unjustified. if they "slow down gameplay", blame the player. know what else slows down games? literally any form of interaction. control decks. yet i don't see anyone complaining about Mana Leak or Terminate in the same way they complain about planeswalkers.
March 20, 2019 1:57 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #24
Idk why I’m still fighting this fight- sorry to the people getting constant notifications from our bickering.
But anyway, you’re right about commanders getting removed and becoming non-feasible to cast, but you’re wrong about the counters, I think. See, because if you leave up mana for a counterspell and they keep playing around it, they’re costing you one spell per turn.
I see you’ve missed my point, though I think I’m to blame for that as much as you. Basically, my whole deal was that walkers force you to HAVE removal for them. Not only is that not ideal in every color, but it’s also an unnecessary deck building restriction. Like you have 4-8 cards in your deck dedicated specifically to remove walkers and those slots could be used better.
And ALSO they force the entire table to mobilize against one player at a time. That’s assuming the creatures can attack that player. It makes everything so boring and linear: target player A, target player B, until the game is over. Yuck.
March 20, 2019 8:53 a.m.
DrukenReaps says... #25
ZendikariWol I feel like your argument is based on walkers actually being scary. Some of them are but most of them... I just keep going after the player. Occasionally 1 or 2 attacks at a walker to keep it off ult or 1 removal spell. That is about it...
March 20, 2019 10:11 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #26
The walkers my meta’s using (we’re fairly casual) are Venser, the Sojourner , the Sorins (especially Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and Sorin, Solemn Visitor ), Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded (undoubtedly the scariest of the bunch), Vraska, Golgari Queen , and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets . So basically they’re either really scary card advantage engines or make the board a lot scarier than it was- whether by adding or buffing creatures.
JANKYARD_DOG says... #2
Kiora, Master of the Depths could be a decent build around, imo anyway.
March 18, 2019 12:38 p.m.