Petition To Ban Flash Here
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Feb. 21, 2020, 3:23 p.m. by ToffMcSoft
Flash as a card has ruined the cEDH scene to the point where 40% of the decks you play against are Flash Hulk builds. Since the release of Thassa's Oracle ALL hulk decks have now moved in a single direction combining Breakfast Hulk, Shuffle Hulk & Sacred to now all be what's considered "Fish Hulk".
Sign The Petition To Ban Flash Here
Flash
- NOT LEGAL in Standard, Brawl, Modern, Pauper & Penny
- BANNED in Legacy
- RESTRICTED in Vintage
Why is Flash still legal in Commander? Does the RC play Flash Hulk decks and are biased?
DrukenReaps says... #4
griffstick but hulk can be fun. Flash just makes it too fast.
February 21, 2020 3:34 p.m.
griffstick says... #5
When it was banned no one missed it. So ban it again.
February 21, 2020 3:36 p.m.
ToffMcSoft says... #6
Hulk is a fun to play in re-animator decks. Flash just makes the card too broken.
What's worse is Flash has changed the cEDH meta to the point where every pod has a Flash Hulk deck in it, if not 2 players with Flash Hulk builds.
Flash won't be missed, only that 1 deck that runs Flash Academy Rector.
February 21, 2020 3:39 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #7
Cedh is a play to win game. Using anything and no matter the cost. All players going into a cedh game are, or should be, aware of this mentality. Flash is just an efficient way to win. But it’s also fragile in key areas like any combo.
The RC typically only look at cards to ban that make the casual settings broken or un-fun. Iona, Shield of Emeria is a good example of this. No one would play a 9 drop creature in cedh that doesn’t auto-win, whereas it creates an un-fun environment for players across the table in a casual pod.
In casual, Flash is much less abused. I’ve never seen it cast, or even in the 99, myself in any casual game I’ve played.
February 21, 2020 9:50 p.m.
I will preface this by saying i am not a cEDH player, but one of the issues I've seen with Flash is that a turn 0 win with a decent hand is possible. Potentially winning the game before another player even has the oppurtunity to draw a card, much less play lands to counter early. Consistant wins as early as turn 2-3 while saving mana for protection isn't uncommon, but Flash Hulk seems to be one of, if not the most efficient ways to accomplish this. Also, we need to consider that cEDH is commander, they are not seperate formats, the RC should consider issues in cEDH in regards to banlists as well because they are a percentage of the playerbase, albeit a substantially smaller percentage. Additionally, while I haven't researched the specific data myself, and have a hard time believing the meta is 40% Flash Hulk, if that is the case it would most definitely be considered a format warping card.
February 22, 2020 11:34 a.m.
dingusdingo says... #10
This same type of thread has been kicking around online pretty much since Thassa's Oracle was spoiled
Flash
- Lets you get ETB and LTB triggers from any creature for
- Instant Speed
Protean Hulk
- Lets you tutor for 6 different cards, or 5 different cards, or 4 different cards, or 3 different cards, or 2 different cards, or 1 card
- Able to create loops from the creatures you pull by utilizing cards like Phyrexian Delver Body Snatcher and Body Double
- Expensive to cast but easy to reanimate or cheat into play
My opinion
Yeah banning either one helps a lot, but nobody plays Flash -> Rector seriously, and even if they did it isn't more or less broken than many other combos. Flash for Rector usually means you're pulling Omniscience. Since Yawgmoth's Bargain is banned in the format, you don't really have a good easy line with Rector that doesn't involve more cards in hand. If you Flash -> Omniscience, your combo is actually a 3 card combo as now you have to have an outlet card. Also consider how absurdly low quality Omniscience is outside of comboing, and how having it in your hand makes your combo brick out completely. I know people like to say this is the reason to get Flash over Hulk, but it will see 0 play if Hulk is banned and flash isn't.
Also consider the usefulness of Rector and Flash casually. Rector is a dead draw outside of combo and so is Flash. Hulk decks don't run enough ETB or LTB effects to make casually popping a flash worthwhile, same for enchantments as other outs for Rector. Also consider the commanders. Resolving Flash -> Rector doesn't do much with Thrasios + Tymna. You can't nab an enchantment to give infinite Thrasios activations and draw thru.
I think people really underestimate Hulk for some reason. Every single combo with creatures can be put in the context of flash hulk. Any new speed cards or cheat into play exacerbate the problem. Flash certainly can be problematic for future printings, but realistically Flash combos with one card in a busted way. Hulk has so many different combo options available its pretty ridiculous.
P.S. Tack on Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact if you're seriously requesting RC intervention.
February 22, 2020 3:17 p.m.
Tbh I dont play cedh much, but I do think it is a problem that everyone hates the card now because a combo has been made too powerful.
However, I also think that banning a card just because it combos well with another card or two isnt really good enough reason for a banning. If that was the case, wed have seen a number of infinite combo cards be banned already (like Sanguine Bond for example). If anything, the cards which should be banned are those that are inherently unfun and impossible to play against.
February 23, 2020 4:42 a.m.
@dbpunk - The difference between those two combos is vast. Both require two pieces in hand to go off, but flash hulk is one cast of an instant at two mana, if I am not mistaken it requires no other resources. Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond is two separate casts of two separate permenants requiring an investment of ten total mana. There are SO many more ways to interact with two cast triggers, and two permenants than a single cast of an instant. I don't like the thought of card bannings for no reason if the format is healthy...but if 40% of the meta (once again skeptically quoting an above poster having done no research myself) consists of one combo, that is a problem. Maybe the issue is Flash, maybe it is Protean Hulk or maybe it is Thassa's Oracle because it pushes the original combo past the point of standard consistancy, but ultimately something needs to be done, we can't completely ignore a portion of the player base of our amazing format. Perhaps the RC has done research and determined that only a few localized areas are having such a problem with this combo which is why they haven't reacted. Perhaps they are still collecting raw data to come up with their own conclusion. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
February 23, 2020 8:38 a.m. Edited.
dingusdingo says... #13
"Tbh I dont play cedh much"
Yeah dog we know. If you did, you'd be onboard with one of these cards getting banned
"However, I also think that banning a card just because it combos well with another card or two isnt really good enough reason for a banning"
There are plenty of 2 card combos that directly lead to winning that nobody is requesting a ban on. The specific problem with Flash Hulk is that it is easy to assemble, extremely cheap to use, and hard to interact with outside of counterspells or very specific stax pieces like Cursed Totem or Linvala, Keeper of Silence. The flash hulk player can sandbag their combo until getting either a counterspell or a Chain of Vapor effect to handle counterspells/stax pieces. The combo sits neatly in hand until it fires, meaning you don't get the chance to remove a piece to stop it from executing correctly. After the Hulk trigger resolves, the Flash Hulk player selects a handful of creatures that specifically allow them to hold priority until all their needed triggers to win are stacked, meaning you must attack abilities on the stack in order to stop the combo at this point. This combo can fire entirely at instant speed, meaning you can wait until a counter-war breaks out on the stack to slip your own combo on top, or simply try to win in response to someone else winning. Its a very powerful combo and currently nothing is close to it in consistency or difficulty to handle for the competitive scene.
Combos are fine. Combos that are extremely hard to interact with outside of playing blue and always holding a counterspell are not fine. Compare to a combo like Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Village Bell-Ringer. You can remove one of the two pieces in response to the other being cast, that alone means every color can handle the combo. You can play any number of stop combat effects like Fog. You can even get blowouts with a card like Rakdos Charm. Any combat inhibitors like Solitary Confinement or Ghostly Prison also cause grief for this combo. Now compare to Flash Hulk. You need blue and you need counterspells or Stifle. Really narrows down deckbuilding choices about how to handle the combo.
Raging_Squiggle Iona, Shield of Emeria is banned because Painter's Servant was unbanned, not due to griefing casuals. It also did see play in competitive decks prior to its banning, especially in midrange decks that had both white and black, and it was a common reanimation target because it completely hoses out blue players or can lock a player if they're on a mono color combo like Godo or Sidisi. Swinging for 7 is non-trivial, even in combo heavy cEDH. If the board is locked or heavily slowed, especially if you have other hatebears, bleeding out the fastest combo deck or the Ad Nauseam/Necropotence player wins games.
Scytec While its arguable that Thassa's Oracle pushed Hulk past the tipping point, Hulk was already the deck to beat in cEDH. Just the fact there were 3 different hulk lists with the same commander for doing literally the exact same thing speaks to how stale the meta became due to Hulk's unbanning. Whoopdeedoo so the hulk mechanism is Sacred Guide instead of Nomads + Cephalid, really revolutionary design. All that this printing has done is show that any new creature printed with an alternate wincon or ability to mill the library is exacerbated by the existing problem of Flash Hulk. The deck was boring to play against or pilot before Oracle, and it is still boring afterwards. Once again, the problem is Hulk's ability to pull jank ass 4 card combos from your deck from a single card. Flash speeds it up and handles the dying aspect of the Hulk trigger, but the problem is 100% totally Protean Hulk's 6 CMC of tutoring power off a single card.
Flash Hulk definitely isn't 40% of the meta, but it is an ever-present threat and restricts deckbuilding because you have to account for that combo. I highly doubt the RC is waiting because they are collecting data, they have made it very well known how they ban cards and how they prioritize casual players over competitive players. Sheldon wasn't even aware of Dramatic Scepter combo until about 2 years ago, and the RC is almost entirely casual players with a chip on their shoulder about efficiency in their format. Them pushing rule 0 so heavily makes it even more absurd they don't ban from the top-down like literally every other single format. If a casual playgroup didn't like a ban, they could ignore it, meanwhile anyone who plays in tournaments or at their LGS is 100% bound to the RC's whimsical nonsensical bans.
February 23, 2020 4:46 p.m.
@dingusdingo - So ultimately the card you personally would like to see banned then is Protean Hulk? Do you happen to know the true percentage of the meta utilizing this combo? Also, forgive me for being unaware of the problems with the RC. It seems unfortunate to me they would ignore a percentage of people trying to enjoy a format they worked so hard on. cEDH is a very interesting level of play, it drives viewership of content, and any time a new aspect of a format can draw additional types of people or personalities to it, can be nothing but beneficial. More players of any kind ultimately push Wizards into producing more content for our beloved format. So what can we do? Petitions specifically calling out favoritism in the RC, the very people you're attempting to petition seems counter productive, how does one approach this in a manner that is peaceful, but direct and firm?
February 23, 2020 5:26 p.m.
griffstick says... #15
dingusdingo normally I dont read any message that long but you kept up with every sentence with great points. I couldn't stop reading it. I agree on everything you said. However I like the occasional edh banning (even if it whimsical) . Gives a lil shake up in the format. A banning is nessasary at this time and it's not Flash... ItsProtean Hulk. Banning Protean Hulk fixes the problem from both competition and casual cmdr.
February 23, 2020 9:56 p.m. Edited.
dingusdingo says... #16
Scytec Please forgive me if my earlier message came off rougher than intended. I meant no disrespect, especially regarding knowledge about the RC. It is unfortunate that the RC is the way it is, but its a fact of life.
I firmly believe that between Flash and Protean Hulk, the problem is Hulk. Flash sees no competitive play outside the context of Hulk because it then becomes a 3 card combo with Rector, meaning it has lower efficiency than any of the other playable 2 card combos in the format.
As far as what percentage of the meta is Hulk decks, its hard to say. There aren't regular competitive tournaments beyond shop level for EDH, so its hard to find reliable statistics. There are online tournaments on platforms like Cockatrice, but that information isn't as useful because they aren't paper lists. Going by a rough estimate, if you put 15 fully powered no budget cEDH players in a room, I would wager at least one of them is on Flash Hulk, maybe two or even sometimes three. With a format like Vintage we can pull actual results from tournament winning decks and say "Oh look Ravager Shops is currently 15% of all tourny winning decks", but EDH is not as enfranchised with statistics in this regard. Plus, not every shop that hosts a commander night is going to have a 100% competitive field, or even a single player with a 100% fully powered deck. I am fortunate enough to live and play on the West Coast, which is a magic hotbed, and I regularly run into this deck if I go at my LGS.
As far as what we can do, its mostly out of our hands. The single best thing that could happen for the format would be for Wizards to directly assume control and enforce a banlist like they do with every other format. Gathering signatures on a petition could certainly be worthwhile, and I won't discredit the efforts of the poster, but a grassroots groundswell for every single banning doesn't sound efficient in time or energy. Having competent leaders helm the format would solve many of the problems, or even splitting the format could help, although I myself am against that idea.
griffstick Thank you for the compliment. My posts read like small books but I try to keep them as on topic as I can. I agree that bans for meta dominant cards can shake up formats in a healthy way, and I specifically believe that while the meta has adapted to handle Flash Hulk + Consultation Combo decently well, the meta has warped around those two combos specifically, and shut off many other interesting decks due to their inefficiency in comparison.
February 24, 2020 12:44 a.m.
ToffMcSoft says... #17
The thing is, hulk is the problem on its own. Flash is what makes Hulk a problem.
Rebanning Hulk, sure that works as well. Hulk or Flash, something needs to happen as it's gotten way out of hand.
February 24, 2020 8:42 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #18
For the love of Jeebus! Ban Storm Crow already!!!
February 24, 2020 5:02 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #19
I agree, I'm not stuck up on which one gets the ban, as either one will solve the problem. While I'd prefer Hulk over Flash, getting rid of Flash still solves the problem.
February 24, 2020 11:49 p.m.
Heres a question: why not ban Thassa's Oracle? Before that card, it seems like hulk decks had diversity and flash/hulk wasnt the same straight line into a win.
February 25, 2020 7:10 a.m.
ToffMcSoft says... #21
Thassas Oracle as a card isn't a problem and can be controlled by ETB shut off cards relatively easily.
The thing is, Flash Hulk is too easy to assemble a combo & win with. Yes you can play anti hulk cards, however, that doesn't change the fact that most Hulk decks can win on Turn 3 a lot easier then any other deck.
Now, running anti hulk cards is great, however, there's usually 2 hulk players at a CEDH pod. Typical games is stop the first and the second hulk player wins on the next turn.
February 25, 2020 8:44 a.m.
ToffMcSoft says... #22
Sheldon from the RC doing an AMA
Everyone, Sheldon is doing an AMA. I've already posted asking about the flash ban. Would help if others do the same. If we made it the most common question asked it's got to have some clout.
February 27, 2020 2:22 a.m.
wotanaz1337 says... #23
On one hand I can understand the complaints. On the other it just makes me chuckle when cEDH players rage about certain cards. The irony is outstanding.
March 10, 2020 5:31 p.m.
brendanwheeler says... #24
Less than 1% of EDH players play cEDH. The reason none of this will get banned in EDH is that it does not affect the vast majority of players.
If anything, ban Thassa's Oracle. Banning Hulk or Flash will just allow other extremely broken combos to take its place (I'm looking at you Demonic Consultation/Thassa's Oracle combos).
You don't like it? Change to the meta, and just in like other formats, those decks will not stay at the top. It's that simple.
April 19, 2020 7:20 p.m.
Omg i really dont understand crying baby complaining about cards. U want to ban a card in a subformat that 1% of the edh players plays. Thats hilarious. Dont be silly and go to play another thing if you dont like to play with magic cards.
DrukenReaps says... #2
"Does the RC play Flash Hulk decks and are biased?"
This is the funniest shit, XD
February 21, 2020 3:27 p.m.