Iona, Game Breaking against Mono?

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on Jan. 12, 2016, 2:03 p.m. by JuiceboxHero

So, recently, I had a game where I was playing a W EDH deck against someone's B/R/W deck. They throw out Iona, Shield of Emeria and, naturally, chose White. Game over.

I concede defeat, but even if it is for mana, it's an easy win. It feels game-breaking. This kind of card makes it somewhat detrimental to play mono-color EDH, despite how fun it is. I mean, honestly, if Biorythym is on the banlist, why not Iona, Shield of Emeria?

greyninja says... #2

I would have to agree that she is evil af; but there are cards that can deal with her

Duplicant, All Is Dust, Oblivion Stone, Perilous Vault, Scour from Existence, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, etc

January 12, 2016 2:08 p.m.

brokendwarf says... #3

You should be running colorless removal in a mono-colored deck anyway. Iona will almost always show up an any white deck you go up against.

January 12, 2016 2:13 p.m.

Aztraeuz says... #4

You should be running answers for Iona, Shield of Emeria. She is one of the more popular cards for any deck running White, like Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. You said you are playing Mono-White, are you not running her?

All Mono color decks need to be able to counter their weaknesses. That is the fun in playing Mono color imo.

January 12, 2016 2:22 p.m.

griffstick says... #5

any spell with devoid gets around her. Mycosynth Lattice makes all spells colorless so that works. and Duplicant would be funny exiling iona

January 12, 2016 2:25 p.m. Edited.

-Fulcrum says... #6

A lot of people want Iona banned. But she's not game breaking. She's an obstacle, especially for mono color decks, but one you need to be able to answer. If you're in a playgroup that's casual enough where you have no answer to situations like that, you may want to talk to your friends about which cards you allow.

January 12, 2016 2:39 p.m.

JuiceboxHero says... #7

Yeah, but thing is, I shouldn't have to change up the entirety of my strategy for the sake of one card an opponent may have. I get it, there are answers to her, fine. I put one, maybe 2 in my deck. What are the odds I'll hit that in the next 10 cards I draw? Assuming they have 9 mana by turn 11 (Probably sooner, but let's say for the sake of example). Assuming I have drawn no more than one card per turn, I have 88 cards left in the library. If I have 3 cards that can answer her, I'll have a 3.7% chance of hitting that card on my next turn. It doesn't go up much from there, only increasing by .04% chance on the next turn. Now, let's say I had some card draw and had 72 cards left by turn 11 (Probably being generous here, hang with me). The chance of hitting one of 3 cards that could answer her are 4.16%.

I'm sorry, but the math doesn't support your suggestion to put colorless card protection in the deck. Considering there are so many ways to get creature search to have that card in hand by turn 11, it's almost impossible to defend against ahead of time until it's already too late. If I don't have the answer in my hand already, it's GG.

I'm not claiming to be an expert here, nor do I think my opinion is anything other than what it is. I am suspicious, however, of the nature of the card and the alignment of the stars necessary to defend against this from a mono-colored perspective.

January 12, 2016 3:16 p.m.

JuiceboxHero says... #8

Ignoring Scour from Existence, most suggestions are $5+ for the card, which, may not even fit the theme of the deck. I appreciate the suggestion, but again, it just feels like a cheap win for just one card.

January 12, 2016 3:18 p.m.

JuiceboxHero says... #9

Last point, I guess what I'm saying is that it shouldn't be just one card that wins a game, but a multitude or combination of cards. Even Biorythym got built into another card as a Formidable ability on Shaman of Forgotten Ways. It's not cheap, and folks can see it before it happens. There's a way to answer it. Imeria is potentially an insta-win. 80% of the time, it works 100% of the time on Mono-Colored decks.

January 12, 2016 3:24 p.m.

Arvail says... #10

Iona? Broken?

enter image description here


Don't make decks without reactive cards. What if I just showed up to your kitchen table and started magisturbating? How would you like that?

Nah, bruh. You make a deck that gets shut down by a single card, you kinda deserve it.

January 12, 2016 3:26 p.m.

JA14732 says... #11

Then ban her in your playcircle or get a friend to kill Iona for you. It's not that hard, and running 2 answers to a card you hate shouldn't be such a big deal.

January 12, 2016 3:29 p.m.

griffstick says... #12

Maybe try removing it from the deck before it's played Jester's Cap

January 12, 2016 3:30 p.m.

JuiceboxHero says... #13

I guess reading isn't your forte, TheDevicer. Did I math wrong? Saying "but it isn't" and then not saying anything to add to the conversation is childish, at best. Should I just expect you at my kitchen table like that? Should anyone? You might want to see a psychiatrist about that. I had an uncle who had problems like that, but he's in prison now. I wouldn't want the same for you.

And, you're right, I totally deserved it.

January 12, 2016 3:30 p.m.

JA14732 says... #14

Ad hominem, and comparing to a criminal.

Stay classy.

January 12, 2016 3:34 p.m.

JuiceboxHero says... #15

The story of my 'uncle' is fiction, but fair enough. Point taken. I shouldn't have lowered myself. I guess it's okay suggest going to someone's house to "magisturbate" at their kitchen table, but not okay to suggest they receive help for said behavior.

January 12, 2016 3:39 p.m.

JA14732 says... #16

"Magisturbate" means combo without chance of interrupt. Not masturbate.

January 12, 2016 3:41 p.m.

JuiceboxHero says... #17

Wow, I must have been out of the MTG scene way too long. I've never heard of that. Ever.

January 12, 2016 3:44 p.m.

griffstick says... #18

No that's not it nobody says it cause it's stupid lol

January 12, 2016 3:51 p.m. Edited.

PepsiAddicted says... #19

sigh another "XYZ is not part of my game plan and i dont wanna adjust. XYZ should be banned"

January 12, 2016 3:51 p.m.

JA14732 says... #20

Cool. Now realize something: Commander is a social format. You have the power to create your own rules, as the RC's are more guidelines for an entrenched playgroup. None of us want to change our decks because 4 or 5 percent of all commander players dislike Iona, but you have the ability to ban her yourself. So either change your deck or ban her, rather than complain.

January 12, 2016 3:52 p.m.

K34 says... #21

I don't think there should be any banlist whatsoever for an eternal-singleton format. There's every bit as many answers as there are threats. A difficult game only makes victory that much sweeter.

January 12, 2016 4:06 p.m.

JA14732 says... #22

Well...Power 9, Emrakul, Griselbrand and their ilk are kinda hard to answer....

January 12, 2016 4:13 p.m.

Yeah, Iona wrecks mono colored decks. So basically bring stuff to the table to can beat it.

January 12, 2016 4:17 p.m.

K34 says... #24

Almost the way Iona is hard to answer in monocolored decks, lol.

In all seriousness though, if you know what everyone in your group runs, you could answer it.

January 12, 2016 4:19 p.m.

KillDatBUG says... #25

Iona's just a big, stupid creature, and it's not that hard to deal with. Honestly, there are way worse things to play against (Lookin' at you, Palinchron...)

January 12, 2016 4:30 p.m.

Ender666666 says... #26

You're 3x as likely to be able to cast your Nevermore before they can cast their Iona, Shield of Emeria.

That said, I personally think that she is a pretty unfun card to go up against, and if you have a tight playgroup, take it to a vote. If you're the only one who has a problem with it, then you should adjust. If it really is oppressive, then more people will agree and it can be banned.

Or just make her your Mono-White commander and give your buddy a taste of their own medicine.

January 12, 2016 4:52 p.m.

JuiceboxHero says... #27

"So either change your deck or ban her, rather than complain."Wasn't complaining, was actually asking a question for the sake of discussion and was curious where the line was when it comes to banning cards. I was curious in the discussion, not the flaming. Wasn't expecting this much backlash.

I find it interesting that the community is pretty okay with a card that prevents the other player (if mono-colored) from playing the game by turn 11 or sooner. I've had some quick wins before, but not typically because I happened to cast one card.

In a multi-color format, Iona isn't a big deal. Against Mono-color, however, it's pretty much a single-card game ender. If you pull off getting rid of her after she appears and still survive, that sounds amazing and I'd love to hear about it. I'd argue that something like that doesn't happen all that often, however. There's little recourse for it. I do appreciate the suggestions that help with that sort of thing. Much appreciated.

See, I had no idea, it was a random guy. So, when it happened, I was 5 rounds to decimation. Not much you can do when you can't cast.

January 12, 2016 4:53 p.m.

Ender666666 says... #28

Unfortunately, it's one of the risks of playing Mono. You get mana consistency, but end up vulnerable to certain things, with no answer.

January 12, 2016 5:10 p.m.

JA14732 says... #29

Then you learn. Add answers. Change your deck, your playstyle. Go under instead of over.

As I said, nobody here wants to change their decks because people can't adapt, and if you're more worried about staying on theme than stopping her prepare to lose to Iona.

Sorry for the callousness, but I really think the fault here isn't with the card.

BTW, turn 11 Iona is hilariously late. I've dropped her T4 before on a table of blue players. That was fun.

January 12, 2016 5:11 p.m.

JA14732 says... #30

Ender, Scour from Existence, Spine of Ish Sah, etc. There's always answers.

January 12, 2016 5:14 p.m.

-Fulcrum says... #31

JA14732, Lol that sounds pretty fun. I'm a junk player, so I just play removal spells in three different color to get the job done. What deck were you playing to do that?

January 12, 2016 5:15 p.m.

JA14732 says... #32

Mayael the Anima. If you want to try, use Quicksilver Amulet. That match degenerated into pure hatred and chaos.

Pretty much sums up my opinion of Talrand decks.

January 12, 2016 5:18 p.m.

-Fulcrum says... #33

Sounds pretty fun. I cheat big shit into play just by reanimating it.

For the OP, I highly recommend Duplicant. I used to play it in my mono green deck. It's just so powerful against so many decks, and you can fetch it with Enlightened Tutor.

January 12, 2016 5:23 p.m.

Quail says... #34

Iona is a bitch, but you CAN deal with her. A player playing Iona deserves her effect, she's expensive to play. And just because she stomps mono colored means that she isn't as good against multi-colored. It's a two way road.

"Oh man I named Black so you couldn't kill spell her but you have blue to bounce her, Blue should be banned."

January 12, 2016 5:49 p.m.

Quail says... #35

It's also worth noting that White permanents on the board can deal with her still. Run something like Mangara of Corondor or Elspeth, Sun's Champion.

You have a lot more options than you think, you just need to look for them.

January 12, 2016 5:53 p.m.

JuiceboxHero says... #36

You make great suggestions, Quail, as do some of the others here. I appreciate it. The problem I face is this, and it's the reasons for this whole post in the first place: If you didn't already have it in hand when it happens. You're toast.

Should any 1 card have that much sway in a game?

January 12, 2016 6:06 p.m.

JA14732 says... #37

Yes.

January 12, 2016 6:07 p.m.

CuteSnail says... #38

No ones mentioned Ugin, the Spirit Dragon or Karn Liberated.

Iona wins the game if you let her. She only wins if you scoop and give up. I purposefully all answers to deal with her in my Liliana deck because she's a real threat, but not one without answers.

January 12, 2016 6:09 p.m.

griffstick says... #39

@JuiceboxHero Edh is typically a multilayer game so u don't always have to be the only one to have an answer additionally add lots of land destruction and add Crucible of Worlds and start blowing up lands one after another and tell that person it's because you named white

January 12, 2016 6:33 p.m.

-Fulcrum says... #40

If you think she's too powerful for your playgroup, you can discuss whether or not it should be banned in your playgroup. In higher level Commander pods, it's more like a temporary obstacle than a real threat. Akin to Aura Shards or Karn Liberated. Not a threat like Deadeye Navigator or Karn Liberated.

Karn is love. Karn is life.

January 12, 2016 6:35 p.m.

Quail says... #41

Eye of Ugin can be used to tutor for Duplicant, Expedition Map can be used to tutor Eye, or you could grab Maze of Ith to buy you time.

Running a mono colored deck, you really need to up your toolboxing if you aren't going Blue. Pretty much every monocolor deck benefits from Eldrazi and Eye of Ugin is just too good to pass up.

You don't need an answer in your hand, but a properly constructed deck should be able to deal with most weaknesses it has at least 60% of the time.

January 12, 2016 6:50 p.m.

dbpunk says... #42

The thing you're complaining about, specifically that you don't want to change your deck to have answers to a single card, is exactly what banning Iona would do to others. It's forcing them to change their decks.

Yes Iona is frankly the king of bitch move cards. If I'm playing against a deck with her as the commander or if I know she may come up, I'll avoid using my Mono Blue deck. However, she's not impossible to get rid of thanks to colorless devoid spells, removal artifacts/colorless spells and the wonderful nature of EDH politics (because anyone who plays Iona, Avacyn or any other superpower commander is pretty much hated and hunted).

And frankly anything that gets rid of Iona can be just saved in a sideboard or used against other tricky bastards of cards. Opponent casts Prophet of Kruphix? You can still Dupiclant it. How about a Vorinclex? Duplicant it. Someone casts Kozilek? Duplicant it.

January 12, 2016 7:09 p.m.

JA14732 says... #43

Alright, so now that I'm on a computer instead of mobile, I'm really going to say what I think about this. JuiceboxHero, you're not the first person to suggest that Iona should be banned, and nor will you be the last. However, the essence of these arguments comes down to not knowing wtf to do when you see a new card. I remember the first time I saw an Iona, I was playing an out of the box Built from Scrap EDH. We were the last two left, guy throws down Iona, says GG and I topdeck a Spine of Ish Sah. Next time, I flipped a Hidden Dragonslayer. The crazy thing is, while she's strong and makes a major impact on the board, she's ultimately beatable.

Now, you need to listen to us. She's fine. If you want to ban her, go right the fuck ahead. I'm not going to stop you. But if you try to force me to not play her, I will take every step to stop you because she's not a problematic card and complaining that there aren't cheap counters to her OR any that are "in theme" (btw, if you see an Iona and are complaining about maintaining your deck's "theme," then there's sincerely no hope for you) while downplaying every argument we've offered and overplaying her potency on a board.

In essence, most debates about banning powerful creatures like Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Deadeye Navigator, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, etc. stems down to one basic issue: These cards are above that player's ideal power level, so rather than changing their deck, their playstyle or simply accepting their deck's weakness, they want to see EVERYONE ELSE conform to them so they feel better about themselves.

Which is bullshit.

The EDH community as a whole has decided that Iona really isn't the biggest issue in the format. She's strong, but beatable, unlike many of the cards on the banlist. You mentioned Biorhythm, but the reason why that card's banned is because if no one has countermagic it will 100% of the time win the game on the spot, even with multiple players. Griselbrand is a guaranteed 28, 35 or 42 cards INSTANTLY. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn kills someone on the spot and is playable in every deck. Worldfire, yet again, is an instant win and just an annoying card to deal with. Iona? Well, she dies to any form of colorless removal and doesn't even hurt a multiplayer board. Just have someone else kill her if you can't be bothered to change.

TL;DR: Either you change or your playgroup changes, but the rest of the format won't.

January 12, 2016 7:40 p.m.

JuiceboxHero says... #44

@JA14732

I'll quote myself:

"Wasn't complaining, was actually asking a question for the sake of discussion and was curious where the line was when it comes to banning cards. I was curious in the discussion, not the flaming. Wasn't expecting this much backlash."

I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with changing my deck to adjust for a problem card. It makes sense and it's not an uncommon practice. And, you're right, again, Iona isn't the only one. I've dealt with Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger before, but arguably, he's easily easier to deal with from a mono-color standpoint than Iona. But you'll probably say I'm wrong about that, too. I'm not asking everyone to change. I'm not the posterchild for banning Iona. I simply wanted to discuss it and understand. Clearly, I'm in a pool of few who feel this way. I'm okay with that. Let's take the tension down a notch.

No one has addressed this point:If you didn't already have it in hand when it happens. You're toast.

Guess that's just how some games have to end. I've seen it above in some of the posts. It may be acceptable, but it's acceptably a dick move.

If Vorinclex comes up. You've got a few turns to deal with it. You're not unable to play until the right card comes up. And that's really the heart of my argument. I don't feel it's right and good for a game when you basically prevent another player from participating in the game and that's how you win.

For instance, if there was a card that said:

Your opponent cannot cast spells for the next 5 turns. End opponent's turn immediately after draw phase.

That'd be game breaking, neh?

Here's the argument against that card: There's counter spells for that. You should have counter spells. It's your own fault if you don't have counter spells in your hand or interrupts on the board when that gets cast.


All said, I'm looking for more of a discussion of the heart of the issue, instead of people telling me what I should've/could've/had to have done.

January 12, 2016 9:25 p.m.

JA14732 says... #45

Here's the problem: this discussion has been done to DEATH. Ultimately, it's realized that either the person looking for the Iona ban is searching for validation, they realize that she's manageable, they realize that monocolor isn't really for them or they're so far gone with their hate for the card that the debate isn't really worth it anymore.

She's not banworthy. Period.

January 12, 2016 10:25 p.m.

JuiceboxHero says... #46

If you're done with it, fine. You don't need to add any more. I appreciate the feedback thus far.

To be fair, it's the first time I've posted or participated in a conversation about it. Whether it's a dead horse or not, isn't your decision.

Still no takers on the points I've brought up?

January 12, 2016 10:54 p.m.

CastleSiege says... #47

Guess I'll be the guy to agree with the OP, mainly because I main a mono green deck and have plenty of salt built up against Iona.

My most recent experience playing against her was in an 8 person game at a table where 6 of the players were playing blue. The guy playing Sharuum across from me entombs Iona on turn 1 and exhumes her on turn 2, naming green even though the smart decision would have been to name blue. I was the only green player. What was I to do against a turn 2 Iona with my mono colored deck? No one else had any reason to remove Iona so I scooped.

January 12, 2016 11 p.m.

Quail says... #48

I actually did give you examples. Up your toolboxing, as you should. If you don't have an answer in your hand or field, tough shit, that's the point of the card.

If you're having trouble drawing into answers up your cards that have a broad range of options to choose from. Expedition Map as I said can help you get land answers. Look up more yourself, do your homework.

January 12, 2016 11:16 p.m.

JA14732 says... #49

CastleSiege, I wouldn't even be mad. That's an amazing start, albeit mean.

Granted, I wouldn't quit out right away either, just piggyback off of others to survive AND THEN KILL THEM ALL, but meh, that's just me.

January 12, 2016 11:28 p.m.

CastleSiege says... #50

Eh I just saw sitting there for the next 5-10 turns (in an 8 player game) doing nothing as a waste of time so when I scooped I immediately sat down with another group of players.

Although, me and that Sharuum player had a 1v1 game later that night and I smashed him with Titania. :)

January 12, 2016 11:36 p.m. Edited.

This discussion has been closed