In Defense of Jeweled Lotus
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 13, 2020, 4:33 a.m. by Mortlocke
From my own assessment, the general sentiment surrounding Jeweled Lotus is summarized in the following Cardboard Crack comic:
Excellent comic by the way. But I think it really misses the mark here - when a player gets ahead too early, they become the Archenemy - the player who is assessed as being the biggest threat early on (between turns 1 - 3) in a game and gets focused on by the table. Instead of a game of 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 - it becomes 1 v 3. Speaking from experience, said Archenemy player gets their entire board state dismantled by ALL of their opponents and are usually left with the least amount of resources for the rest of the game - if any.
In reference to the comic, if ALL opponents have no response and concede on turn 1 then I think that's indicative a larger issue within that playgroup: nobody at that table uses any form of interaction in their decks (e.g. Swords to Plowshares, Beast Within (as in T1 Mana Crypt + Forest), Pongify, Lightning Bolt...the list goes on). I would even go on to say that everyone in that group plays like Timmy/Tammy (nothing is wrong with that - but it makes games very narrow and insular - basically no one interacts with another's boardstate). Alternatively, if that was a game of cEDH then that's how the game is supposed to be played - but with less bad feels. Regardless, the point i'm trying to make is that - in an average game of Commander, a table should reasonably be able to react and control a turn 1 or 2 Commander in the vast majority of games (i'm saying 80% - 90% of the time the archenemy gets controlled by the table). In those rare instances when a table is literally locked out - e.g. T1 Urza + Mana Crypt + Winter Orb - then that's simply a done game. Again, combos that powerful are rarely seen in a game.
Now, there are decks I think this card can do well in - decks where the Commander is a really high CMC. Yes, take this as shameless advertising, but i'm considering this card for one of my own decks:
The Predator of Predators
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 192 | 93 COMMENTS | 20658 VIEWS | IN 78 FOLDERS
Zacama, Primal Calamity helms this deck, and she is a CMC (Naya) commander. For decks that have those extra THICC commanders with the high CMCs, Jeweled Lotus could make all the difference at any point of the game. In Zacama's case, she is considered a "kill on sight" Commander - a creature that can be highly disruptive to any boardstate at any point of the game." She will get removed, regardless of when she is played. But, for those situations where I need to get her out late game Jeweled Lotus could easily be the difference maker. OR, I could have an explosive start and play Zacama 3 turns earlier.
Ultimately, I think the Magic Community's reaction is far too dramatic thinking that this one card is going to stop a game before it starts. No. It will not. It will simply put a single player in the position of Archenemy early on, or help a player get a Commander back into the game after it has been removed a few times.
Side note - I do agree with the notion that the card is entirely designed to help sell packs. Serving mostly as something exciting for people to pull. I think it's a good idea. Is it worth the $150 - $100 pre-order price? Hell No. It's a decent $20 (non-foil) card in the making that goes in only a handful of commander decks.
Additional side note: For those interested in my Zacama build The Predator of Predators, I plan on swapping Jeweled Lotus in for Talisman of Impulse. Additional Additionally, I will swap in Court of Bounty for Rishkar's Expertise. I really enjoy Monarch, and I think that card is a perfect fit for the deck. Please let me know your thoughts about the deck and uh...feed Zacama your upvotes.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #3
I don't have an issue with JL being played in a casual setting, where spells cost more mana and the games are slower.
The biggest issue I have are the decks that are in cEDH playing this card, a format I am starting to regularly play. My issue is that it brings decks that have no business being near the upper echelon of the format, to just that. In a format that plays more "stack" interaction rather than creature removal, this bodes an issue when someone is able to Urza or Yisan turn 1 and then proceed to go off on turn 2. This leaves few ways to interact, even in a pod of 4 when most of the time, the first 2 turns are set up turns, and when a deck has to take a break from that to interact, the deck that played the JL is going to more than likely be ahead, because their deck is designed to provide advantage with their commander out and by the time the commander is dealt with (turn 3 or 4; only turns 1 or 2 if lucky), that means the damage is already done, and the other 3 have lost the ability to "keep" up with the boardstate, or at least 1 person did if that 1 person was able to answer it which means the other players were left to just do what they do.
So I guess what I am saying is that I wish there was 2 different ban/restricted lists: one for casual EDH and one for competitive EDH.
However, the issue becomes much more complex than that, since you technically CAN play a casual EDH deck in a competitive pod and do fairly well at times.
But I digress. I think JL was a mistake and that the format didn't need this card at all. I also think that Opposition Agent and Hullbreacher should not have been printed either and if they were to be printed, to at least make them 4 mana, without "flash". All together, these 3 cards should not have seen the light of day when it came to R&D and there were plenty of people from the EDH realm who got to see the set while it was in development and informed R&D to not print these cards. This just goes to show that WotC doesn't care what its player base wants and just wants to do one thing: make money. I understand they are a company and have to earn a profit to keep business ongoing, but there are better ways to do so, than to push out this type of sh*t.
Rant over.
November 13, 2020 9:39 a.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #4
I agree with the comic and the point of views stated here, but yes jeweled lotus is not great in casual it just helps ramp commanders out faster, but I doubt it will ever just mean everyone concedes.
November 13, 2020 9:43 a.m.
GhostChieftain says... #5
UpperDeckerTaco imo in cEDH making fringe decks more playable is good for the format and adds variety. The fringe decks can't be so fringe that they rely entirely on it though, it still needs to be good enough to hang. If it causes a change in deckbuilding too that is fine, but I doubt it. If you aren't running any spot removal for a najeela already (who is regularly t1-2 without jl), then you aren't any worse off with them jeweled lotusing a t1 najeela. You really have 2 options for your deck when playing against decks that turbo out their commander; play removal on their stuff or go faster than them.
November 13, 2020 10:46 a.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #6
cEDH will always adapt to a new card. Almost every cEDH deck (especially those in the Adaptive archetype) are designed to be flexible. Does Null Rod or Stony Silence ring a bell? If it becomes a problem in a given pod, that pod will adjust. A single card won't break the game. Honestly, I don't even think the Moxen or Black Lotus would end the world. I also second GhostChieftain's comment.
November 13, 2020 10:53 a.m.
I think the two key problems with Jeweled Lotus are variance that leads to less fun and accelerating power creep that is making decks more homogeneous.
If you play a Jeweled Lotus turn one or two you are going to either win quickly or be the archenemy. That kind of game play isn't really satisfying for anyone and the comic covers that well.
I do think that Jeweled Lotus is part of a trend of generically powerful cards that slot into any deck that are starting to make decks more homogeneous. Arcane Signet was a similar card that even Wizards admits was a mistake. By itself Jeweled Lotus doesn't break the format, but if there are more and more cards like it then that is a threat to the format.
So far I love a lot about Commander Legends, but Jeweled Lotus, Opposition Agent and Hullbreacher are all cards that accelerate the power level and lead towards games that are less fun for the table.
November 13, 2020 noon
Omniscience_is_life says... #8
Mortlocke It doesn't break anything... but it just doesn't need to exist. Good luck interacting with my T1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope. I would also disagree on two fronts with your assessment of whaat happens when the lotus is drawn: you seem to say simultaneously that everyone will have good enough decks to have interaction, but no one will have good enough decks to assemble a powerful combo with the additional Lotus-mana/have countermagic ready for said interaction.
November 13, 2020 12:29 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #9
Omniscience_is_life, You point is good but your example is why lotus is good in some ways. Playing a high CMC commander early that would otherwise not be good is exactly why we need the card, especially in white
November 13, 2020 12:35 p.m.
Wait how is it bad for cedh ?
I mean really it helps already good cedh decks like Godo, Yisan,Selvala Wintoa, Elsha etc to fight all the
Thrasios, Triton Hero or Tymna the Weaver card advantage engine pairings
I am not seeing how Jeweled lotus is bad for cedh; to me it looks like it helps deck diversity even more
November 13, 2020 12:58 p.m.
To be honest, this card is getting a ton of hype and it's effectiveness is highly overrated. Turn 1 commanders aren't uncommon as it stands, and Jeweled Lotus is really only good for 3ish cmc mono colored commanders or commanders with extremely high cmcs (which are already mostly unplayable in competitive settings and making them playable in more casual settings is fine by me). I can't fathom why the card has a 120$ price tag prior to release, it's not worth 20$. It's a card that doesn't win games on it's own, can't really combo to win with available commanders, and will only be 1 card in 99 so the odds of it even having relevant impact on games are so low it's not worth consideration as a problem that will regularly have to be dealt with.
Certainly the most over hyped card of this set and without any real good reason given just how narrow and limited it's effective use cases are. Bring on the Jeweled Lotus as far as I'm concerned, nothing it can do is really bad for the state of EDH on the whole.
Opposition Agent on the other hand...
November 13, 2020 1:13 p.m.
GhostChieftain says... #12
hejtmane I see one way it is bad for it, deckbuilding for players new to cEDH. On its face it is an amazing card, but with the wrong commander it is a dead card more often than not. Sure you turbo out your commander, but if you cant use your commander to gain value yet you are SOL.
November 13, 2020 1:20 p.m.
GhostChieftain that is for a lot of deck building when new to cedh unless you are just copying decks from the cedh list. I don't play cedh a little higher in the cost range than I want to spend but I follow it because I play in a tier in between highpower and casual and I always wanted to play modern but I could not bring myself to spend 1k on a competitive deck that gets banned. The reason I keep track and follow is my take the splurge into cedh eventually why i started collecting fetchlands. I have one more to get on the lower cost ones then when MH2 comes out I will getting the enemy color fetches. I debating on mana crypt first before I start looking at force of will, mana drains and the likes.
I have not played long enough to have all the staples
November 13, 2020 1:29 p.m. Edited.
SteelSentry says... #14
My stance, which has been echoed by others in the community, is "why does this exist?" Ever since Commander got on the radar of design team in a big way, it seems like there's more avenues of pushing the letter with how powerful and efficient they can get before the blowback. Before this was Fierce Guardianship which is never not a feelbad, and before that was Chulane, Teller of Tales and Korvold, Fae-Cursed King, which all but play the game for you once they hit the field. We are to the point where a broken Simic mythic that draws cards and creates mana is a staple of Standard sets. There is a slew of new legends from this set and Jump-Start that had more or less wholly unique abilities, which proves that there is design space for cards that are designed for this format that can create a positive play experience for more than the person playing the card, and the Lotus feels like it sits somewhere between obligatory chase and unfair mythic.
November 13, 2020 1:38 p.m.
GhostChieftain says... #15
hejtmane I absolutely agree. There are a ton of traps to fall into. This just happens to be one and that is the only way I can see that it is bad for anything cEDH related.
Btw Budget Brews Club is a site you can check out if you want to get into cEDH but don't have the scratch for budgetless.
November 13, 2020 1:46 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life, your example of a T1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope is one of the reasons for a Jeweled Lotus as highlighted by I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks. Also, if on T1 you - play a land, Mana Crypt, Lotus Petal, Sol Ring AND a Jeweled Lotus then sweet holy tacos Christmas came early for you. But uh, Avacyn can totally take a Path of Exile to the face - which I do run in my decklist that will also be running Jeweled Lotus - The Predator of Predators (Leave an upvote if you feel so inclined).
In all seriousness, just having a T1 Avacyn in a ridiculously rare Christmas scenario doesn't outright end the game. Onward to your second point - "I would also disagree on two fronts with your assessment of whaat happens when the lotus is drawn: you seem to say simultaneously that everyone will have good enough decks to have interaction, but no one will have good enough decks to assemble a powerful combo with the additional Lotus-mana/have countermagic ready for said interaction." I don't know what you're getting at - because those weren't my words, nor my intention. I'll just tl;dr - The player with the Jeweled Lotus on T1 becomes the Archenemy and will be dealt with by the table. This Dark foreboding end of all magic power creep narrative is simply over-hype and utter poppycock; in other words - complete nonsense.
November 13, 2020 3:12 p.m. Edited.
Path of Exile, hah. videogames. I meant Path to Exile.
November 13, 2020 3:20 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #18
Mortlocke sorry if it felt like I was trying to quote you, should've mentioned I was paraphrasing.
Excuse my T1 Avacyn example, that was merely an attempt at showing the ridiculous amounts of mana you can have at such an early stage of the game: certainly enough to set a lock, if not just outright win.
What I was going at--with the part of my statement that you quoted--was that you say in your original argument "nobody at that table uses any form of interaction in their decks", as well as saying that "combos that powerful are rarely seen in a game". So it seems as though this table that you think we're all playing at is playing at a high enough power level where they keep up mana for elite interaction such as Swords to Plowshares, et cetera, but they are also playing at a low enough power level where having 8 mana T2 isn't enough to pop tf off. Slightly counterintuitive in my opinion. I don't want to get super deep into this, though, I think at the base of it all I agree with you--just want to point out some additional information, rather than alternative information.
November 13, 2020 4:01 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #19
Listen, I honestly do not mind "power creep", but to a certain extent. When they release cards that give you the feeling of "you have to play this to keep up with everyone else", then it brings the deckbuilding creativity down for the format. Which is my sense for casual.
As for cEDH, the reason I don't want to see mono-colored decks end up near the upper echelon is because not everything should be made to be powerful. That's the whole reason why decks are classified in "tiers" when talking of power level. If everything is good, in a wide open meta, it's a literal crap-shoot of broken combo decks. How does one deck prepare for a such a vast field of play? You can't. You only have 100 slots to fit the bill and be able to combat the meta. If the meta is wide open, why even try to combat the meta and just run turbo combos, which leads to non-interactive gameplay. And for those that say cEDH is already filled with broken combos and that's all it is, clearly doesn't know the exact average meta.
I will say, they can literally change up the entire meta as it sits right now by banning ONE card...and it is not what you think...
...Thassa's Oracle...This will definitely change the meta up quite a bit.
November 13, 2020 4:16 p.m. Edited.
GhostChieftain says... #20
The thing is cards in those tiers move relative to the cards printed that benefit them, and there are a ton of fringe decks that can be played already that only MIGHT see more play from this. I would about guarantee silas renn moves up a tier because of the new mono red partners. The tier list isn't set in stone. As for preparing for a vast field of play, you don't need unique answers for everything. Counterspells and spot removal are pretty widespread and can hit everything. Thoracle is definitely a card that completely warps the format, jeweled lotus only allows some slightly better fringe.
November 13, 2020 10:12 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life - your T1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope is highly improbable - even with Jeweled Lotus. She, much like Zacama in my awesome decklist The Predator of Predators suffer from the issue of having a very high CMC - relegating them to primarily mid to late game apperances. Jeweled Lotus does help get those commanders out sooner...but like I said - it has to be Christmas for said commanders to get out early game, let alone T1.
Now, when you said "What I was going at--with the part of my statement that you quoted--was that you say in your original argument "nobody at that table uses any form of interaction in their decks", as well as saying that "combos that powerful are rarely seen in a game". You missed something VERY important here: Context. If you re-read what I said in regards to "Nobody at that table uses any form of interaction..." the paragraph starts with "In reference to the comic". As in, everyone in the playgroup IN THE COMIC likely don't have decks that run alot of interaction. Swords to Plowshares, Pongify, etc - all my examples are not "elite interaction" (as you put it) - they're common. Not a single one of those spells is over 3USD, and all see regular play in EDH. Now, the other part that you got confused with - "combos that powerful are rarely seen in a game" that is in reference to meta - specifically cEDH - NOT the playgroup in the comic. I was saying that a T1 Urza + Mana Crypt + Winter Orb - enabled by Jeweled Lotus would likely be relegated only to cEDH play. Why? Because that combo costs roughly 160USD and that's not including the Lotus - an extra 150USD (at the moment). So, a T1 Urza lock out would be about 300USD more or less. Besides the price point - the meta would also have to tuned to expect that kind of play. Look. Basically what i'm trying to say here is that you took two separate statements I made completely out of context and got confused when making your argument.
November 14, 2020 8:26 a.m. Edited.
Omniscience_is_life says... #22
OMFG please stop plugging your decklist
I will readily admit to being wrong--wait sorry. I am currently admitting to being wrong :)
November 14, 2020 5:36 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life - I will own the fact that i'm a butt for plugging my decklist so much. Honestly, I was having a bit of an inside joke with myself because i'm crazy. But uh, hey - at least we both agree on Jeweled Lotus for the most part.
oh, and before I forget...
P.S. Show
November 14, 2020 5:49 p.m.
Jeweled Lotus is a great card in CEDH, but in casual commander it doesn't stand up to the hype.
Unless you are playing a commander that has an obscene about of power and a CMC of 3-5, then it isn't that big of a deal.
By turn 2 or 3 a typical commander table will have an answer for a commander, so by rushing yours out you are just jumping at the front of the line to eat their removal loaded hand. Sure if you get your commander out turn 1, then you can get a turn or two of value out of it before they get to 2 or 3 mana to play their removal. But if you are rushing out Omnath, Locus of Rage on turn 4, then most likely you just lost card advantage and now your 7 cost commander costs 9 so you've likely put yourself out of the game.
The only deck I'm running Jeweled Lotus in is Pako, Arcane Retriever. Commanders like him that give you huge amounts of card advantage and have to be answered at instant speed to deny the value are the only ones where this card is worth it.
December 7, 2020 9:18 a.m.
I believe that this thread for the most part has come to it's logical conclusion and everyone who posted have all reached the same conclusion: Jeweled Lotus: is a vastly overhyped artifact that makes a difference in only a handful of decks. It doesn't break the game, it doesn't warp Commander as a format, it isn't a "must include" for every deck, it isn't the 2nd coming of Black Lotus. Heck, it isn't even the 2nd coming of Sol Ring. The "Oh my God Jeweled Lotus is what if Urza had a baby with the Death Star" sentiment is best represented by the Cardboard Crack comic posted at the start of this thread - which irks me so much. I think it's a bad take - the writer for that comic simply bought into the hype train at the moment like everyone else who didn't stop to think and analyze the card. So, I took it upon myself to fix said comic. I present to all of you a realistic and average game of commander when a player gets their commander into play turn 1 with Jeweled Lotus:
griffstick says... #2
That comic is great. That comic depicts exactly what everyone thinks. But it's not realistic. I mean theres gonna be hundreds of people who go through this scenario in real life. But if you can't enjoy playing Cmdr without jeweled Lotus turn one (which is gonna feel amazing) then consider a different format. In another view as the other 3 at the table who play the game with mr jeweled Lotus. That's a very real scenario too. I myself have faced down a insane turn 1 and thought that, it's all over, and conceded. And so did the others too.
P.s. the format is super popular right now. Its almost everyone's favorite format. I think it's in a healthy place. I dont think this card will ruin the format
November 13, 2020 8:43 a.m.