I have a messy situation at the LGS and could use some advice
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Jan. 31, 2020, 2:10 p.m. by Deadpoo111
Hey there everybody. So a few months back, I went to a new card shop that opened near me, it was a lot closer than my normal LGS, and I thought if it would be fun to experience a new meta, as the one at the old LGS didn't really do casual and I'm a janky boy. So I go to this new place and absolutely love it. It's small, localized and I become good friends with the owners right off the bat. TLDR It's a great place, needless to say I'm in love with the LGS.
So a few weeks in this new guys pulls up to the shop on friday night. He seems nice, he talks up his decks a little bit (but really who doesn't do that, we all have pride in our decks). SO we sit down to play and decide on power level 9. So I played my 9 level deck, Specter tribal. It's got a lot of discard and hand hate because well, that's what specter's do. He's playing Edgar Markov
. Now, I've faced Edgar enough to know he's a threat, I think any edh player who's faced a good edgar deck knows that. My two other friends at the shop are playing with us, they're good guys who I enjoy playing with. The game starts and I start doing my thing, hands are small, life totals are dwindling and the edgar player draws and boldly proclaims he can win next turn. I assume (correctly) that the card in his hand is something crazy and cast a Specter's Wail, he only has one card in hand, so he goes and discard a Kindred Charge, which definitely would have killed the rest of us. Perhaps understandably, he's pissed. So pissed, in fact, that he goes to the counter. I'm not sure what's happening now, and I planned on removing edgar this turn too, but whatever, I'll wait for him to come back. He's talking with the owners and like 5 mins later he stomps towards the table with a pack of Amonkhet in hand. I've never heard of someone who buys a pack when he gets tilted, but whatever, we EdH players tend to be quirky. So I'm sitting there, he sits, and then throws (and not gently mind you) the pack at my face. Now, I'm not athletic in any way, hell I play MTG because it doesn't require exercise, but I manage to catch it before it hits me. I'm stunned, the rest of the table is stunned, we're all like, what the hell just happened?!?!?! The guy demands the pack back, and I'm still shocked. I debate keeping it from him because what if he throws it again. But hey, I didn't buy it so it isn't mine. He says I can only keep the pack if it hits me in the face. He throws it again and this time I don't catch it, it hits me in the face and I'm steaming. I'll admit, I have a relatively short temper, being a teenager and all, but my friend sees this, packs up and takes me with him. I go back next week and there's this asshole again, back at the table. It's taking every nerve in me not to yell at him. For the past few weeks he's continued to be a dick and luckily hasn't thrown a pack at me again. I don't know what to do with him because he sort of shoves his way into games. Any advice guys, I really love this shop and don't want to leave it.
Grubbernaut says... #3
Yikes.
This reads like a fanfiction mockery of the LGS MtG scene, sorry you had to go through that. Regarding your reaction; best thing to do is deescalate. If you don't act bothered, he'll get more pissed, anyway. Eventually he'll at least leave you alone.
January 31, 2020 2:34 p.m.
Speak with your LGS owner about the situation - preferably on a night where there is not an event going. That way they know it is a discussion you calmly considered and find important enough to discuss outside of your regular event attendance (also they’ll be less busy and more receptive to your concerns).
Avoid playing with that person unless you have to, and try to ignore their antics if you are forced into a pod with them. Don’t go out of your way to specifically stop him - that’s just escalating the issue - treat him as if he was a completely silent person playing the game, and perform risk assessment as normal.
January 31, 2020 2:52 p.m.
griffstick says... #5
Take his ass outside and show him what that right hand do
January 31, 2020 3:08 p.m.
GhostChieftain says... #6
What in the heck did I just read? I understand that a number of magic players have terrible social skills, but who in the world goes and buys a pack to throw it at someone? I think your immediate reactions are reasonable here, and in the future maybe tell him that that was not okay. Or if you have a short temper it may be best to have a friend or the store owner help. He genuinely may not realize exactly how much of a dbag he is being. If he does realize, avoid as much as possible.
On another note, power levels are super subjective and generally 9 & 10 are seen as cEDH as far as I have seen. I am genuinely not trying to be rude here, but edgar markov and specter tribal don't quite hit that level in my opinion. If I heard power level 9 I would feel comfortable pulling out a deck that can win on t1, if I heard specter tribal I would feel like an ass for playing anything that can go that fast.
January 31, 2020 3:09 p.m.
ToffMcSoft says... #7
Note to self, always play your most powerful deck and hope to get someone so upset they throw a pack of Amonkhet in your face.
Sounds like this guys SALTY over what, a $7 pack? LOL.
January 31, 2020 3:56 p.m.
I don't think you should sit by and let him be a jerk to you and other players. Toxic players can ruin a community and make the whole magic experience un-enjoyable. Whether its confronting him alone or with several members of you community, I think you guys need to stand up to him. Obviously that's easier said than done and by no means do I mean be aggressive and provoking him. Being civil and speaking your mind seem to be the only things you can really do aside from being a jerk back. I feel like the staff running the business don't want that type of player their either, maybe their is some player reporting or maybe your player community as a whole can do something to promote a better play experience for everyone willing to participate in appropriate behavior.
January 31, 2020 4:03 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #9
The right play, in my opinion, whenever you have a situation like this, is to lay your options out before you and choose which one seems best (yes, I know, very blue of me). Let's take a look here.
1) One option is avoidance. Just don't go to that LGS, don't go when he's there, or something like that. This doesn't really solve the problem, but it ceases to be your problem.
2) You could also just try your best to talk it out. The way I see this shaking down is you trying to start a conversation about emotional maturity and Jeff (or Jeffina) blows you off and both of you leave the conversation upset.
3) You could just not let Jeff be part of your games. Just don't play with them. Problem with that is, Jeff could complain to your LGS manager(s).
4) Tell the LGS manager(s). Maybe they talk to Jeff, maybe they don't, but either way I think they can provide useful tips on how to approach the situation. If not an outright solution, this is a very good step 1.
And now, some advice on how to deal with people like Jeff in the future.
1) Do not give Jeff what he wants. It's not good for you, and (not that you care but) it's definitely not good for Jeff. Jeff needs to learn what is acceptable in the world of adults and it's important that you make sure they do.
2) Sometimes doing the right thing isn't doing the nice thing. Jeff needs to understand that what Jeff is doing wrong, and that means someone needs to tell them- not only with their words but their actions. That might be you, and that might be a manager, and that might be beyond your control entirely. But for someone to grow, they need to be shown in no uncertain terms that what they're doing now is not working.
3) Jeff is not going to listen to you. Jeff will not listen, perhaps, to any one person. What Jeff will listen to is a collective, or the person who represents one. One person being upset, Jeff will ignore. Everyone being upset will catch Jeff's attention.
4) Don't hate Jeff. Chances are, somewhere down the line, someone who should have taught Jeff about being an adult... didn't. Just understand that Jeff is a human and there's good in every human if they are willing to look for it.
January 31, 2020 4:03 p.m.
DrukenReaps says... #10
Free card packs for absolutely destroying him? I'd have to decide if it is worth it... Best thing for you, given a short fuse, is talk to the owner and your friends. Make sure they understand the things that guy does really really bother you. Your friends will look out for you. Hopefully the shop owner will tell him it isn't cool to throw things at people's faces...
January 31, 2020 4:09 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #11
GhostChieftain based off the cards that were listed I agree that it wasn't a 9 power level, but I would like to link a competitive worthy Edgar list for your browsing
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/31-01-19-symphony-of-the-knight/
Deadpoo111 That's a very unfortunate situation mate. The fact that you're a teenager makes it even weirder too. Is this another teenager or a fully grown man? Either way, its embarrassing conduct.
If I were you, this would be my course of action
- Speak with the pack thrower in a 1 on 1 conversation the next time you see them. Tell them you were offended by what they did, and ask them politely to stop. Even if this person treated you poorly, the best option is usually to kill them with kindness to solve the problem but also to affirm you are the bigger person and you are willing to let transgressions go if the overall behavior changes. This is going to solve your problem in 95% of circumstances.
- Speak with the LGS manager or owner if the problem persists or you get a negative reaction from the pack thrower. It is in the interest of the LGS to keep the playing area friendly and safe. If they won't speak with the pack thrower or bar them from playing there, they will at the minimum be aware there is a problem, and keep an eye out for future transgressions. It may not solve the problem, but it will most likely make the next transgression the last transgression. If you are a minor, inform them you are a minor as well. Kids getting bullied by adults at local cardshop is very bad publicity.
- If somehow neither of these options work, you now have a choice. Choice A is continue playing at the LGS, choice B is find another LGS. Choice A will most likely involve removing yourself from any pods or games the pack thrower joins. Politely inform the table you will find another game because the pack thrower has joined, politely inform them of pack thrower's previous conduct, then find another game. If you do this a few times, it will stick with people. Choice B of finding a new cardshop has the immediate benefit of not having to see pack thrower again, but also they may play at more than one shop in town, or the other LGS may be too far away for your current transportation or feature a more competitive/less competitive meta which may not be to your liking.
Good luck
January 31, 2020 4:27 p.m.
seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #12
From the given answers, what ZendikariWol said seems the most reasonable. I won't add anything regarding a solution.
Regarding "Jeff's" behaviour: Are you confident you can estimate his age? Because this seems very childish to me, and besides being immensely disrespectful, seems like something a kid would do. I'm not saying such behaviour shouldn't be taken seriously. It definitely should. But it's hard to accept someone you behaves like that as even remotely adult. Somehow who behaves in such a way towards other people tends to have massive problems with their self esteem. Maybe try to take this into account when assessing on how to handle the situation.
January 31, 2020 4:35 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #13
seshiro_of_the_orochi, I'm not sure how much Jeff's age matters here. Whether he's 9 or 90, Jeff is in the company of adults and needs to learn to behave as such.
January 31, 2020 4:43 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #14
You're right, but if he's much beyond the age of twelve, this indicates some kind of developmental, emotional, or mental issue that may factor into how the situation should be handled.
January 31, 2020 4:49 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #15
Grubbernaut, I'm gonna provide the hot take and say that Jeff's physical age does not matter. I think that people of all ages should be judged on the content of their character, and if they act selfish, rude, and unpleasant, it's our job to help them grow as people- and usually that starts with a reprimand.
January 31, 2020 4:57 p.m.
Hit him with a cinderblock and tell him he can keep it if he doesn't catch it. Seriously though, in most places that's considered assault. Talk to the LGS owner about it, because I'm sure that guy will pull crap like that with others.
January 31, 2020 8:20 p.m.
Maybe he means his Tier 9 deck? as in T1 being Thrasios stuff?
January 31, 2020 9:43 p.m.
Deadpoo111 says... #18
Wow, lots of comments, I'll try to answer everything here.
In reference to his age he's in his late 20's or 30's but I know he can't drive because his mom brings him and picks him up.
In reference to my and his deck, it was a pretty tuned Edgar Deck and like some people said, power level is subjective and we all play pretty casual. Since a lot of people have been mentioning this, here's the list I guess. The number was decided upon by my play group
A Hellish Crusade | Edgy Specter Tribal
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 34 | 34 COMMENTS | 2793 VIEWS | IN 6 FOLDERS
I think I'll probably talk to him directly with a friend next to me, wouldn't want it to turn into brawl (because lets be honest, the format isn't really interesting) If he doesn't listen I'll talk to the owners on a day other than FNM like someone suggested
I'd like to finish with a thank you to all of you, you've really helped.
January 31, 2020 10:42 p.m.
triproberts12 says... #19
Honestly, I would give the shop owner a heads up, then rely on group policing to keep this kid in check or expel him. If your two friends who witnessed what happened are there with you, or there were other regulars of the shop at the table who witnessed it, the next time the kid is inappropriate, talk with the table after the game and see if you can get a group message across that he isn't welcome for the next game, and if the table gives him another chance that he abuses, then the shop owner will have to acknowledge that even if he won't ban the kid from the store, the group can't be forced to play with someone they're not comfortable with.
January 31, 2020 10:57 p.m.
griffstick says... #20
That deck is like a 6. On a scale from 1-10 ten being the strongest your deck is a solid 6
January 31, 2020 11:38 p.m.
Hmmm. Power level aside, weird, almost surreal type of anti-social behavior. I'm sortof a physical person by nature, so my reaction would be different than someone who mentions being more cerebral (also a teenager). This is an act of a coward (a 20-30 y.o. pushing a teenager around). If you are not a physical guy & this type of confrontation is not your cup of tea, I would recommend talking with some of your buddies to be prepared to step in & nip this crap in the bud next time, you'd be surprised how different things can go if you have any informed friends that have your back.
February 1, 2020 12:02 a.m.
triproberts12 says... #22
I think the power level of this conflict is OVER 9000.
February 1, 2020 1:50 a.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #25
It's been stated before. Talk to the owner let them know it's a problem. If it persists you could get him dci banned commander is about to have some samcationed events perhaps having to take a time out from the game would give him some time to reflect on his actions. I've had someone take a tantrum because I kept winning with maelstrom wanderer and the staff member at my lgs had to ask him to leave. Keep your calm. Dont instigate or escalate the situation. It's not worth a physical altercation its just cardboard.
February 2, 2020 1:35 p.m.
TheDarkPlague says... #26
Throwing a pack at you/ in your face is considered to be an assault. Especially if he does it multiple time and you have a few options.
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Go to the owner an formally complain about the other customer (most if not all of your option need to start like this).
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Do the number 1 and if it happens again you can now go to you police station and make a proper complaint against said individual.
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If things escalate again repeat action 1 and ask the owner to ban the guy you could even take legal actions against the shop if they refuse for allowing a customer with dangerous/ aggressive behavior in the shop and you definitely can take legal actions against the other customer.
The thing to keep in mind is your safety. At any moment if you feel threatened you need to go to the person in charge of the shop at that moment or call the cops depending of the severity of the situation.
hope that helps.
February 2, 2020 3:52 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #27
Gleeock Hey I understand you are a teenager, but getting physical to solve confrontations isn't going to work as a problem solving skill in the future, and usually not as a teenager either. Always be prepared for a physical confrontation, but never start one. Its extremely unlikely anyone is going to suffer any injury further than pride from having a pack thrown at them. Getting up and fighting the guy who threw a pack at you is going to get you banned from the store. Getting 2 or 3 friends together and dog-piling the guy is going to get your ass thrown in jail. It's a childish move to throw something at someone, but its more childish to escalate a situation from tilted player to physical violence. Talk to the LGS owner, talk to other players, there are so many other steps before make a plan to have your 6'8 linebacker friend turn the guy upside down.
I watched a similar situation happen two weeks ago at my own store, except the aggressor shit talked a recently single guy instead of throwing a pack at him. One guy jumped the other, the other fought back, and they both got banned from the store. Cops came, asked some questions, determined that neither of them were actually hurt, and even though one guy wanted to press charges against the other the cops pretty much gave them both a warning.
Also to all the people saying file an assault charge, extremely unlikely anything would come of it. Two guys getting worked up and having a physical altercation isn't really going to matter unless there are actual damages or someone can prove malicious premeditated intent (like making a plan to go curb stomp a guy with 3 friends). If the thrown pack nicks your eye and blinds you forever, that would be an actual reason to press charges. If someone throws a pack and it hits your face and the damages don't last longer than 2 minutes the cops are going to tell the two of you to cool off and issue a warning. Even getting a bruise for a week isn't going to be serious or lasting enough to be worthwhile to press charges. Most DA's have such a backlog of more serious cases that they aren't going to waste time with little fish slap on the wrist type stuff. If you retained a private attorney, yeah sure you could press charges, but the cost versus what you would actually attain would be so not worthwhile it would be a fool's errand. You might spend $10,000 on lawyer fees and be awarded $1 in a civil suit as a technical win. Don't believe me? Many attorneys offer free consultations. Go in and ask. They will pretty much tell you that since damages are non-existent, so is your case.
I really can't stress enough
You have to move correctly even when others wrong you, here and in other places in your life. The moment you retaliate you are going to put yourself into the crosshairs of potential legal action. Getting the guy banned from the store but getting you and your closest three friends a felony or criminal misdemeanor doesn't really sound like a win to me
- Speak to the player, inform them what they did was wrong and ask them to stop. This solves 95% of transgressions
- If not, speak to LGS manager/owner. This will solve 4.9% of the remaining transgressions
- If not, now higher attention is being paid to transgressor. Their next transgression will be taken more seriously and more heavily punished.
- Do you really want to be the guy who sued someone for getting a pack of cards thrown at them? Not even a million dollar cash payout, most likely a Pyrrhic victory of $1-$100 dollars with 10x the payout spent on fees, or possible lost revenue from missing work/school to handle lawyer meetings and court dates.
February 2, 2020 4:58 p.m.
I'm not a teenager, the writer is. I was trying to figure what a bullied cerebral teenager could do. I was not recommended to fight (that may be an option for me, in which case I'd ask him to go outside). I was recommending something down the line of your #3 option: increase awareness in your buddies, ask for help from buddies. Usually the social pressure generated by your friend(s) saying "stop taking a piss at my buddy" will be enough to let doofus know that this is noticed & you will not be tolerated. There is a likelihood that the guy has social-adjustment disorder (by description), in which case it would be a shame to truly jump him. However, social team-up on unacceptable behavior is a strong way to put him in that uncomfortably aware minority hotseat, puts you in power, & should resolve the unacceptable behavior. Classic counter-bullying
February 2, 2020 5:33 p.m.
dingusdingo: I don't think anybody was recommending legal action at this stage (I'm not entirely sure how the American law system works but here in Australia I doubt that kind of action would ever even see court). And I have to agree with what Gleeock said, generally having numbers on your side will act as enough of a deterent that most people like this guy (who is probably actually a huge coward and was only pulling this crap because OP is a teenager) that nothing physical will come about from it. There's also the benefit that it reinforces that nobody in the store is going to tolerate this guy's BS and hopefully he will either A) shape up or B) move to a different store (the more likely option).
February 2, 2020 7:45 p.m.
Well said. Nobody needs their lights knocked out, social pressure can be a powerful thing. Having someone (prepared) at your back clears your own head & is more likely to cut the behavior off than having a 1:1
February 2, 2020 7:49 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #31
Gleeock If you are not a teenager, please forgive me. I read this sentence and it sounded as if you were
I'm sortof a physical person by nature, so my reaction would be different than someone who mentions being more cerebral (also a teenager).
I believe I also misread your earlier sentiment of getting friends together as with violent intent. I agree that having bystanders around makes it easier for the aggressor to conform to social pressures. As long as we are all in agreement that jumping the guy isn't the answer, I think we're good.
enpc The American law system has two components, you can press civil or criminal charges. Civil is usually suing people, settling disputes, fighting landlords, etc. Civil suits are usually brought forth by private lawyers or firms and are either aimed at winning money or getting a court order (restraining order, gag order, or other). Criminal cases are usually handled by a District Attorney who works for the state, and decides which cases to pursue based upon available police reports and other information. Many times a police report can act as a "pocket veto" in that a case becomes unreasonably hard to pursue or act upon for a DA without a solid, concrete police report. Given the choice between pursuing a case with a police report with witnesses and evidence and damages, versus pursuing a case lacking all three of those things, the DA is going to spend their time where they can get the most convictions.
An interesting tidbit about the American legal system is that there is no double jeopardy, but this doesn't apply as most Americans believe. You can't be brought to court for the same issue twice, but you can be brought to different courts. For example, in the famous case of OJ Simpson, who was accused of murdering his wife, he was acquitted in the criminal court. However, a civil suit, which uses a different standard of evidence, was brought against and successfully won against OJ for slaughtering his wife and friend (they won millions in the civil case).
So lets say the aggressor in this instance threw a card pack and blinded OP by hitting him in the eye. He could report it to the police, who would file a report, and then pass the information onto the DA, who will most likely prosecute if there are good witnesses or evidence (and of course, being blinded is the damage). OP could also independently seek another attorney during this time to open a civil case against the aggressor, suing for damages incurred from being blind (quality of life, lost wages, hardships performing normal routines, etc.). The cases are independent of each other, and an acquittal in one doesn't necessarily mean acquittal in the other.
As it currently stands, aggressor threw a card pack at OP, and caused distress and short term physical pain. The behavior is more likely to be written off than prosecuted. It would be very hard for an attorney to prove lasting, tangible damage in court, even with a standard of evidence as low as "preponderance of the evidence" (i.e. 50% + a feather to find responsible), because, well, frankly, it doesn't sound like there are any damages. If it were a repeat behavior, you could make the argument of lasting emotional distress or impact, but you would once again have to prove how it has effected the OP in their day to day activities.
February 5, 2020 5:05 p.m.
dingusdingo - Close, but your conclusion is not quite accurate.
Before I get into that, I want to make it very clear that torts (civil actions for damages based on intentional or negligent acts--the type of suit that is relevant here) can vary rather widely between jurisdictions. There are plenty of jurisdictions that do not even have codified tort laws in their code--they simply have centuries upon centuries of caselaw that have to be synthesized into a coherent rule. Anything said herein, or on this thread generally, should not be taken as legal advice, and only used insofar as it is an academic discussion based on general and common legal principles.
Now, onto the actual issue.
A lot of American jurisdictions allow you to sue for "nominal damages" - i.e. you do not have any real damages, but the underlying tort still occurred and the jury/court wishes to award some form of restitution. Most commonly nominal damages are an award of $1.00 (you'll see $1.00 verdicts come up every so often in the news, to the amusement of headline writers everywhere). So, insofar as you say you have to prove long lasting damages, that's generally wrong--you only have to prove that there was an intent for the harmful or offensive contact to occur (or whatever the jurisdiction-specific elements of the tort might be). Here is a prime example of a situation where an intentional tort, under its traditional definition, allegedly occurred (the other person acted intentionally to cause harm or apprehension of harm); but there were no lasting damages--the exact kind of case nominal damages exist for.
The real problem is not that you couldn't win; its that you will waste a bunch of time, money (filing fees, printing costs, etc.--lawyers are not the only cost of a litigation), and effort for what will ultimately be next-to-nothing in damages (there is a chance you could recover costs and fees, but remember--you just made whoever is awarding your damages, be it a judge or jury, very, very annoyed at having wasted their time over someone throwing Magic cards). You also have made yourself "that guy" at your LGS--even if the other person is objectively awful, they still look like the better person as compared to the person who brought an entire months-long lawsuit over this issue.
TLDR: Yes, something like this could see the inside of a courtroom. Yes, something like this might even prevail. No, litigation is not the right way to go about resolving this problem.
There's a few other minor errors and somewhat misleading statements in other areas of your post not really relevant to your ultimate conclusion, but I'll resist being pedantic on those fronts!
February 5, 2020 7:39 p.m.
Deadpoo111 says... #34
uhhhh...Wow, I found the lawyers? I gotta say like, damn, that was a lot to read. I don't think I'll be pressing charges tbh.
February 5, 2020 8:38 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #35
Caerwyn seems better informed than me on this issue, and might actually be an attorney. I will state for everybody though, I am not an attorney and the best option when handling anything legal is to seek a consultation with an attorney. My explanation of the American legal system is not as an expert, simply as an American observer for the benefit of any non-American observers reading.
For my own education, as well as the general welfare of anyone who happens to read my post, I would be interested in the legal minutia that was incorrect or misleading in my post. A private or wall message would sate my curiosity if you don't wish to post it in this thread. I see great value in finessing fine details but I also don't wish to burden you with additional tasks on my behalf, so post if you feel inclined.
Deadpoo111 Not pressing charges is wise, but I am curious to know if you have had any further developments or resolution. At this point I'm almost emotionally invested.
February 5, 2020 9:01 p.m.
dingusdingo - nah, it was more my way of saying I'd personally handle it differently....but based on the OP description of himself, this was what I might do in his shoes. & I only want a lawyer that says: "now I may just be a simple Country Hyperchicken"
King_Ramses says... #2
Wow, that's insane. Just avoid sitting at the table with that person. If he is that angry all of the time, he will become miserable playing there and go elsewhere. Owners also reserve the right to now allow someone in their store, maybe that will happen? If neither of those work, continue to Target his stuff and get free packs of cards??? Jokes aside, what he did was assault and I would speak with the owner about how it is uncomfortable.
January 31, 2020 2:20 p.m.