Greed or Erebos, God of the Dead?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Dec. 8, 2020, 8:21 a.m. by SteelSentry
I'm finishing up a mono- deck, and have one more card slot to fill, and I'm not sure which mana to card engine is a better pick. Assuming the life gain prevention is negligible, has anyone found the resilience and the ability to occasionally attack with Erebos, God of the Dead worth the higher activation cost over Greed?
FormOverFunction says... #3
Sorry - read this as a thread about Greedo.
I’d go with Erebos as well. The extra cost is well worth it for the additional features of the card.
December 8, 2020 10:10 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #4
Why would you neglect the lifegain prevention? It's the most accidental "Gotcha"-effect that nobody expects to matter but always does. Erebos is a lot more powerful than Greed, so unless you really only need the carddraw, or you have Greed but would need to buy Erebos, the God outweighs the enchantment.
December 8, 2020 10:15 a.m.
GhostChieftain says... #5
Very rarely is greed better than erebos. If you specifically need to not have a creature then play greed, otherwise erebos is the way
December 8, 2020 2:45 p.m.
I play a lot of black and have gotten away from both of these cards.
I find that Dark Tutelage Ruin Raider Dark Confidant and of course Phyrexian Arena and Necropotence are cards that I prefer and end up bumping out the others. I even will play Twilight Shepherd over these two.
People are afraid of paying life equal to the CMC, but your average CMC in an optimized list is going to be around 3 for your spells and then you'll have 35ish lands. So on average you'll end up paying about 2 life per card, which exactly what these two cards charge you.
December 8, 2020 3:46 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #9
Out of all the cards I've seen in this thread, Necropotence, Bob and Greed are the ones I'd play. And Greed's a hard sell.
Necro is 3 black to win next turn. I'd compare it to Doomsday -- same cost, and you're basically saying 'on my next turn or so, I'm gonna try and win'. I'd run 'em both in similar strategies.
Bob is good as an early play. 2 mana means it's far and away better than Arena -- but IMO, only in decks that can use the body or Creature supertype.
Greed means that, if you can untap with it, you start drawing a ton of cards every turn. I can see it drawing you 2-3 each turn on people's end steps(which means over the course of 2-3 turns you'll draw as many or more cards as someone who played Arena by the end of the game). Erebos has other effects, but they're not worth the extra 2-3 mana every turn. I can see running both in a deck, but Greed's much better on its own, and even then you should probably just run Ad Naus.
December 8, 2020 4:49 p.m.
griffstick says... #10
Greed is 4 mana to cast, 1 to activate. So 5 mana for 1 card, 9 mana for 5 cards. Erebos is worse at this. I think Erebos is better card then greed. Because of all that comes with her, but I think Promise of Power is better than both at drawing cards
December 8, 2020 6:28 p.m. Edited.
Greed costs less mana to activate. It also has less chance of getting blown up since it draws less hate. My vote is for Greed.
RambIe: Just cutting more lands is generally a really bad idea when it comes to deckbuilding. If the deck is drawing lots of lands once it comes to playtesting the list, then you can tweak it. But just starting out by cutting lands for (high CMC) cards is not smart. I have seen waaaaay too many decks which have an average CMC of 3.8+ and are running too few lands.
December 8, 2020 8:01 p.m.
Agreed enpc
Most decks would be improved if you took out your weakest card and add one more land. Hitting land drops every turn is super important.
Not sure how many times I've seen my opponents miss land drops and spent turns casting more mana rocks to stay on curve. Meanwhile I'm dropping a land for free and keeping tempo for free.
BTW it is the cheap value engines like Phyrexian Arena that smooth out your draws and help you hit lands every turn...
A lot of bad advice being tossed around on this thread...
December 9, 2020 12:50 a.m.
seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #13
Is there a list to have a look at? That would help.
My two cents for now:
You want to ignore the lifegain prevention. Ok. Then it basically boils down to: Is Erebos's indestructibility and the potential to be a creature worth the ?
These depend on which decks you're usually playing against and on the rest of your deck.
December 9, 2020 1:28 a.m.
I would agree with that.
You have to want Erebos, God of the Dead to be a creature to want him over Greed as Greed is the more efficient draw engine. A 5/7 indestructible beater for 4 CMC is solid and in mono-black the devotion requirement is easy.
That said, I still do think he's great. If you have several orzhov life gain players in your meta, I can see him as a good anti-meta card, but this shouldn't be a staple card.
Erebos, Bleak-Hearted is the superior Erebos IMO
December 9, 2020 9:30 a.m.
Another under-rated black card draw spell that I think is criminally under-played is Graveborn Muse. I think a lot of people steer away from it because they think it is lackluster outside of zombie tribal. But even with no other zombies in the deck the card is decent.
December 9, 2020 10:55 a.m.
griffstick says... #17
Yep. It's a good card. Definitely a zombie tribal staple. If you want to think of it like Phyrexian Arena then sure it's just like that in a deck with no zombies. But it's a creature and creatures are the easiest thing to deal with.
December 9, 2020 10:58 a.m. Edited.
No doubt creatures are the most vulnerable permanent type. Still, it makes value every turn with no mana required allowing you to press forward with your game plan. What I dislike about Greed and Erebos, God of the Dead is that you don't get value out of them without spending mana on them. It feels really bad to take a turn off to play a value engine, and then not get any value from it, but it also feels bad to take a turn off to play a value engine and then take another turn off make the value engine do something.
I much prefer value engines that go on their own once they hit the table. I tend to be the aggressive tempo player though. If you're the reactive player holding up mana for instant speed interaction, stuff like Greed makes more sense, as you can use your unspent mana there if you opt to not cast the removal spell that you were holding up mana for.
December 9, 2020 12:15 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #19
Peligrad I guess smoothing your draw is an okay way to use Arena, but IMO I'd much rather cast Read the Bones or Sign in Blood because Arena's only all that good if you get it out early while card draw spells are still worth it later on.
December 9, 2020 4:13 p.m.
They can be worth it. If you have 5 mana and use 2 to play Read the Bones and draw two 4+ CMC spells, you took the turn off for a +1 card advantage.
On the other hand, if you have multiple 3 drop draw engines and you get one down turn 3. If the game lasts 8 turns you'll end up getting +5 card advantage off it (assuming it doesn't get removed). So even if you draw into 2 more engines that you end up not playing, you're still up +3 card advantage.
December 9, 2020 4:24 p.m.
I would take Phyrexian Arena over any draw 2 sorcery. I would probably run them as well as part of my card advantage package because they are good cards. If you ever get 3 cards off of Phyrexian Arena it's easily better than either of those even including the scry.
Maybe in a competitive cEDH deck where you are trying to combo off as fast as possible to win, but in any kind of stax, prison, group slug, fort or slower deck I would think Phyrexian Arena is a much better slot use.
Black has so many good cards for CA slots it can be hard to decide though. Some of the others mentioned here are really great options as well.
December 9, 2020 8:03 p.m.
MagicMarc: Night's Whisper is probably the go to "draw 2, lose 2" sorcery in black. And the cheap (and easy) to cast mana cost makes it pretty enticing over Phyrexian Arena. In a multi-coloured deck, Painful Truths is super good and I would tend to lean towards it before Phyrexian Arena, as having the cards now generally trumps having them later and you've just cashed in 3 turns worth of addtional draw for no extra cost.
It definitely does come down to how long games go and what your meta is like of course. Don't get me wrong, a T1 Dark Ritual into a Phyrexian Arena is bonkers, but you can't always count on a turn 1, or even a turn 3 PA. It's awlays worth keeping a mental note of whenever you draw these kind of cards to see how much value you actually get from them. If you find you're typically seeing 3-4 cards before the game ends or it gets blown up, you might find you just get more value from a single draw spell. But effects like Phyrexian Arena or Greed are still worth testing in most decks (cEDH not withstanding).
December 9, 2020 10:19 p.m.
enpc
What sets Erebos, God of the Dead & Greed apart from every other suggestion
of card vantage in this thread is they are both mana dumps
it has been my experience then when people are considering cards like these
with out taking any interest in the extra 1 card per turn options
it means there deck is playing with an abundance of mana and lack of cards in hand
So my suggestion is going to remain unchanged.
December 11, 2020 9:09 a.m.
p.s.s. i do completely agree with enpc with picking Night's Whisper over Phyrexian Arena
Night's Whisper is 2 mana for 2 cards and considering black has lots of tutors to top it can combo well in most decks
Phyrexian Arena is a great card as is Dark Tutelage, Dark Confidant
all offer fantastic card vantage, however they don't draw the turn they come into play
they have to survive 2-3 rounds to get the card draw vs cost value and that doesn't always happen
thats what makes cards like Erebos, God of the Dead & Greed so tempting to run
yes they are higher cmc but they combo well with tutor to top spells providing instant responses to situations
while also providing the possibility of drawing 5+ cards at your opponents end step
December 11, 2020 11:12 a.m.
Everyone is allowed to build to their preferences. That's the awesome thing about MTG. You get to express yourself through your deck building and play the way you want.
December 11, 2020 2:21 p.m.
Peligrad You are absolutely correct
until you get waffle stomped a couple times
and come back to build like everyone else.
lmao i am jk.
i actually hate seeing everyone playing the same decks
and greatly enjoy seeing peoples personalities pop out in there game play
please don't misunderstand my post im not trying to say anyone has to play a specific card instead of a different one
every card has pro's and con's
as long as those pro's and con's are compatible with your deck
you should absolutely include them even if they are off meta and others tell you not to.
December 11, 2020 5:03 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #28
If you're building with the goal of making the game last a few extra turns, then Arena's great. But you need to be building around having more upkeeps than you otherwise would have.
It's sort of like Night's Whisper is a Swamp while Arena is Tainted Isle. You're automatically considering one, while the other is plausible but easily cuttable.
December 13, 2020 3:02 p.m.
Yeah, except Phyrexian Arena is the auto-include lol.
EDHrec agrees.
Phyrexian Arena is in 37,000 decks which is 16% of black decks. Night's Whisper is in 15,000 decks, less than half, at 7% of black decks.
The EDH community as a whole says that Phyrexian Arena is the stronger card that you should auto include.
December 14, 2020 8:39 a.m.
just because a card is good and popular does not make it the best choice for your play style or best fit for your deck.
always think twice about auto including
Think of it this way
average commander pod consists of 4 players
only 1 of those 4 players is the winner
therefore 75% average data collected on EDHrec is complied from loosing decks
in any format those who have lossed greatly out number those who win
so it only stands to reason blindly following the majority will not lead you to the place of the few.
December 14, 2020 11 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #31
Peligrad I mean, yes and no. Are your games going to be significantly longer than about 12 turns? Do you have extra turn spells? Can you tutor it out with Zur? If you're running Zur, are you also running Paradox Haze to make it even better? Does your playgroup rely on combat damage to finish games? Is your playgroup filled with relatively unskilled players who play EDH because they can have fun there without being forced to do the homework needed to be good in every other format?
If the answer to 1 or more of those is yes, then Arena is a highly considerable card.
If, on the other hand, you are trying to be as powerful as possible, then Arena is horrible and if you should replace it with Necropotence.
Or, on a third hand, if you are trying to be tuned but not spend seven thousand dollars, you should probably use Night's Whisper.
EDH is a casual format, explaining why it's seen so often. Which isn't bad -- I assume most people playing EDH want to play it not to win and instead to play a game with their friends. But for those who want to play more competitively, Arena will get cut too often.
December 14, 2020 4:20 p.m.
It is a $10 card. That's not a budget card... it runs that high because it is powerful. You don't replace it with Necropotence, you run both. You need around 10 card draw spells. Just because it is the second strongest doesn't mean you don't run it lol.
I'm done arguing though, if you guys want to ignore one of the most powerful black cards ever printed, that's on you.
December 14, 2020 5:56 p.m.
TriusMalarky: Night's Whisper gets used in Doomsday lines as well, since it is mana efficient (in the cEDH scene). So it doesn't always come down to the money card cost of a card.
Peligrad: EDHREC is not the best argument. Sure, a lot of people run a card, but I see a lot of really trash cards run in a lot of decks, so that's not always a good argument.
As for the case for Phyrexian Arena, nobody is saying it's bad - it'sa greawt card. The problem is that there are a lot of scenarios where you just want the cards now and you're happy to pay a bit more life for a one shot to draw some cards, since a lot can happen in two-three turns. Arena is great for drawn out games, where you see six-seven cards from it. But the more competitive you go, the more you value cards in hand immediately, which is why you don't see Phyrexian Arena in higher end decks. You see more Dark Confidant as A) it's less mana and B) there's no double black casting cost.
As for Necropotence, that's a tricky one. The card is definitely powerful and it has made a name for itself in hte history of MtG. but in a casual mono black deck, I don't think it's that good if I'm being honest. Most casual mono black decks run pretty high mana curves and from a lot of the ones I've seen on T/O don't run enough ramp. Which means that you're potentially only casting one-two cards a turn if you're being proactive (less if you have removal in hand you're holding onto). Which means that you may be drawing one-two cards a turn off of it. Sure, it's great when you cast it a then draw five cards, but after that you can be back to drawing not much, which you would have just gotten at the beginning of your draw step anyway.
I've played Necropotence in both a casual mono black deck that ran a crapload of ramp and I've also run it in a <2 average CMC cEDH combo control deck and I've found it to have mixed results for both. I actually cut it in the cEDH deck, since I wasn't running the Angel's Grace + Windfall line, which is where you see the most value from it.
@everyone: I think the key here is that while you can have some hard and fast rules about cards, you need to be willing to break the rules to suit the actual meta you're playing in. Phyrexian Arena is an awesome card, but if it doesn't suit the deck or how most games are played (over in 10 turns, lots of removal, etc.) then you may be able to do more consistent work with that slot.
Same thing goes for Greed (my preference) and Erebos, God of the Dead. If your games go long and you have lots of mana, I'm sure either is fine. But if the games are shorter and mana is an issue, you might get more value from Ambition's Cost or Ancient Craving. But the worst thing you can do is just say "this card needs to go in every deck" or "EDHREC says this card is good".
Massacar says... #2
What format is this for? I am guessing commander
Erebos's indestructibility does give it a nice edge here, as well as preventing your opponents from gaining life. I think it's pros generally outweigh the extra in the activation cost
December 8, 2020 9:08 a.m.