Do you consider "Value" = "Card Draw"?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Sept. 2, 2022, 11:10 p.m. by SteelSentry
most deckbuilding templates suggest you use 8-10 pieces of card draw, whether it's the Command Zone's template, the 8x8 method, or otherwise. If you're building a deck with cards like Defense of the Heart, Genesis Storm, or Sunbird's Invocation, do you consider these pieces to be "card draw", or do you have a category dedicated to "free value" cards?
I think that value is a very vague thing, but these would definitely qualify. Have heard something like sacing creatures into Pitiless Plunderer as value, and I think that anything that is a direct benefit to you the player rather than a play against your opponents, is value. So draw, impulse, gaining treasures, or even something like untapping lands with Seedborn Muse is value because it is gaining you resources. At least that's how I see it : )
Also, and I don't mean this as a slight to any creators, but I really don't like the idea of templates for commander decks. Saying you want X of anything is such a double edged sword. Your example of Defense of the Heart is a great one. It's not really draw, but in a lot of green decks it's a straight up wincon. If I'm playing elfball Defense of the Heart will be better than even Ancestral Recall because most of the time you will have 4 mana turn 2 and it's a win if you draw it.
And even on a basic level, the amount of anything and everything you want in a deck is so highly variable. A five color deck will always want more card draw to nail land colors, but a mono color deck doesn't have that and will often have more space for spot removal and things like that. Experimentation is key : ) You won't know the best version of your deck until you try it.
Deck templates are a good place to start I guess, but so often you will find that your deck takes a mind of it's own as you test it anyways, so I don't know. I like when command zone or something does tips and tricks, but I find their structural deck design tutorials, honestly, one of the least useful things.
September 3, 2022 8:02 a.m.
SteelSentry says... #4
Perhaps I could have worded my question a little better. The idea was there's a nebulous "card draw" that most people agree needs to have a certain density in your deck, but what they mean is anything that lets you look at and have access to more cards: whether that's actual card draw, impulse draw from Red, being able to play the top card of your library, therefore "drawing" those cards from the top of the library, etc.
If you want more card "draw" in your deck, do you count spells that let you cast multiple spells at once from your library as a "draw" spell?
September 3, 2022 8:53 a.m.
SteelSentry, no, i don't count any of those example cards as card draw, because card draw helps me hit land drops.
I would put all those cards in the "other / synergy / value" category pile.
September 3, 2022 11:58 a.m.
I wouldn't call them draw. They fall under the card advantage umbrella with draw, but I would consider Defense of the Heart a tutor and the other two as general card advantage.
September 3, 2022 2:22 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #8
I'm with Niko9 in that I don't really like deck templates. They are fine tools to use to get a deck that is at a minimum functional if you do better tuning after seeing how the deck runs instead of completely conceptualizing it. However the categories are rarely going to be right for a well tuned deck. If in the context of your deck you want to consider tutors and impulse draw as your "card draw" that is a fine decision. If you want to count Cantrips, that is fine too. As is only counting instants and sorceries that draw 2+. If you are using a template the purpose isn't to make the best version of the deck, it is to make a version and start tuning.
In answer to the question, I consider the listed cards to fulfil the arbitrary "draw" requirement of templates if and only if the person building the deck consider them to fulfil it.
September 3, 2022 9:57 p.m.
seshiro_of_the_orochi says... #9
I'd count card draw as value. The way I understand the "value" cards in my decks is that they give me access to more ways to cast spells. Sounds bland? Read further.
Impulse draw/Future Sight and other ways to produce value without actually drawing usually put a restriction on the access to a card. Either a temporal one (cast until end of turn) or a mana-related one (You may cast/play from the top of your library). Due to these restrictions, you'll usually not want these value pieces in the early stages or if you are short on mana for other reasons. Card draw gives you cards in hand PERIOD. It doesn't ask questions, it just does its job.
Thus, I usually have a value cluster in my deck that consists of bot actual card draw and other "conditional" value cards. The latter tend to be engine pieces specific to a deck, but aren't always.
TypicalTimmy says... #2
Well, draw implies it goes from the library to your hand.
Advantage is information.
Exiling the top card of your library so that you may play it until end of turn is certainly advantage, but strictly isn't draw.
Now, if you want to get into cards such as See the Unwritten that don't give you draw or advantage, and instead just do their own thing, that's entirely different.
September 2, 2022 11:36 p.m.