Dealing with politics as an Aggro Player
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on May 5, 2022, 7:32 a.m. by Dazard
I fell in love with the edh format about one year ago. After playing with some precon decks, i thought it was time to build something of my own. Always being a fan of mtg vampires i went down the edgar markov route (not very creative, i know, but hey- i like vampires).
The deck turned out nicely and has been a monster in 1v1 matches so far. However when it comes to multiplayer games i am having a much harder time. From turn one on the whole game seems like a "everyone against the aggro guy" scenario to me.
Being able to quickly fill the table with an army of creatures puts a target on you, i get that. But in order to win the game i need to be aggressive when being committed to an aggro play style, don't i?
So while everyone else is making pacts an politics with each other, there's not much i can offer besides "i won't attack you for X rounds" (which is a ridiculous, because it already implicates that i will attack you later obviously). So i end up being the bad guy, who has to deal with 3 opponents.
I guess being an inexperienced edh player, politics is a whole new chapter i need to learn a lot about.
So my question is directed to other Aggro players: Do you face the same problems? How do you deal with it? What are the pacts or offers you can make to forge some alliances of your own? Or do you just go along with it and play a 1v3 everytime you bring your aggro deck to the table?
griffstick says... #3
In most games youll average a win ratio of 25%, with that being said. I have a few aggro decks and most games it feels like I either dominate with aggro or I get swept and run out of gas. This is the problem with aggro. I've learned that you have just got to deal with it and find ways to combat it. Politics can help you along the way but when playing aggro you just have to Politic you way around why you are attacking someone or Politic removal targeting you and try to point their removal somewhere else. But like I said befor. Your the aggro player. You are trying to win faster than the others. Tips for aggro players. Attack the control player/s first. Don't let the players who are trying to go for the long haul get to the late game. That's where those decks thrive. You got to know what your up against. So knowing your opponents and the decks they play and what's in their decks will help you chose who to attack first. Remember aggro is the first player to be recognized as the threat so embrace that as an aggro player. It comes with the territory.
May 5, 2022 10:34 a.m. Edited.
Just because you're playing an aggressive focused deck (these fast aggressive decks fall into the "race" style category, be the racing done by spell or by creature) doesn't mean that you won't have political tools available to you. As with real life politics manipulation of known information is a key component that can help lead to success. Targeted discard spells, for example, like Thoughtseize or Duress can help take some of the heat off of you by sharing information that an opponent has something potentially even scarier planned for the table than you do and you get to go "look guys, I spent my spell, I'm in Mardu colors, I took one of Joe Schmoe's scary threats but I can't take his other one away and we might just all die to that thing". A card like Curse of Opulence can prompt players to swing away at some one other than you in order to sell out for some extra ramp, again manipulating opponents via information ("look, there's a reward for smacking that guy instead of me"). A card like Scheming Symmetry is perhaps the most obviously political of the cards you'd have access to in these colors, allowing you to strike a deal (with a trust worthy opponent, not a known scoundrel) to help tutor up an answer for some one else that Mardu colors might typically have difficulty dealing with.
When it comes to politics, it's all about the information battle. Winning it means you'll be afforded opportunities to convince or force opponents to react in specific ways, some of which you may be able to spin to your own benefit with crafty lines of play. Fundamentally, "race" decks will always have the first target of the game pinned on their back because of how quickly they are capable of winning, so learning to do some politicking even when playing a race archetype will lead to an increased rate of success.
May 5, 2022 11:44 a.m.
I have a friend that ran Markov who had a similar problem. Due to the nature of the deck you drop all of your creatures and kill one player. His solution was to transition to a mid-range strategy. Simply put he would cast early game threats to put pressure on other players, but they didn't win him the game or kill a player, so that he could win the game on later turns. Since I don't know how you are losing I'll put forward a few ways players stop Markov decks and how to counter those strategies.
First, are players killing you when all of you creatures are tapped down? Keep some of your creatures back as blockers, this is obvious and the strategy goes against how agro players operate in most formats but is needed in multiplayer environments. Along the same lines are white spells that can untap all of your creatures on other players turns like Battle Cry and Call to Glory leading to fun combat tricks to kill off important creatures and more importantly save your life total.
Second, are players board wiping constantly to knock down your board state? This was the problem my friend had and after two board wipes he would be out of cards in hand with no board state top decking hoping for some sort of Windfall. There are a few ways to counter this which can be focused on individually or can be mixed for similar results. Making it so your creatures don't die is one method featuring spells like Boros Charm and Teferi's Protection. Another is mass reanimation spells like Faith's Reward, Patriarch's Bidding and Living Death. Finally are flexible spells that essentially replace the creatures you lost. Those being Reprocess, Plumb the Forbidden or Village Rites.
Third, playing politics. Like you said there is not much stopping the rest of the table from ganging up on you, you can however influence other players decisions based on how you play and how others at your table play as well. Hold back threats, it's tempting to dump your hand and start swinging but as you mentioned this makes you a huge target. Instead put down a Coat of Arms or another value spell and hold the rest of your mana open for interaction, which leads to my next point interaction. You have some of the best removal spells in the game in your colors like Fracture,Dreadbore, Anguished Unmaking and Swords to Plowshares all of which are great bargaining chips to use as favors for other players, as well as being useful to take care of things causing problems for you. Last of all are less card choices but more how you address the table, having a good pokerface helps a lot with this. At the start of the game address the commanders others are playing and talk to the group about the powerful synergies they employ. Whenever an important combo or synergy price is played by an opponent point it out to the other players and if it's very strong stress it needs to be dealt with, which may incline the other players to use spells on it, reducing what they can use against you and making it so you don't have to deal with the problem. When a Tutor is cast discuss what spell the player could be gettng, this will draw attention to them and away from you. Finally when players address your board shift focus away from it, point out another player with the winning board state or the deck that won the last game. Downplay that you are a threat until you are ready to win the game. Keep in mind you are still an agro deck, so you can always lean into dumping your hand to kill a player fast if the game match up calls for it.
This final section is just general deck construction. Vampire selection: make sure you vampires are doing more that entering the battlefield to create an extra Vampire through eminence. Things like Blood Artist and Viscera Seer give value when opponents interact with the board and thing like Twilight Prophet draws cards. There are also the vampire lords that buff all of your vampires and tokens. Things that have synergy with your strategy are good includes too like Sanguine Bond, Impact Tremors or Goblin Bombardment and go a long way. Finally is "normal" card advantage that doesn't rely on you having vampires out and will shine in the early game as well as add value late game, Greed, Phyrexian Arena and Wheel of Misfortune.
I hope some of my thoughts help you work out a good game plan.
May 5, 2022 1 p.m.
As a fellow aggro EDH player, I feel you on this. Technically speaking, aggro is at a disadvantage in commander because you have to deal 120 damage and most cards are printed to be efficient in a, you have to deal 20 damage, game. It makes aggro for the sake of aggro very difficult, and especially so if the politics are against you. Honestly, I think this is a misplay by your opponents, but again, I love aggro, so I'm a tid bias : ) But it is the case, a lot of the times, that decks that are the most impacted by aggro are also the ones who are killers in the late game, so by three players ganging up on you, they are actually just all helping the one of them who has the best late game. I can see why your creatures attacking makes you seem like a threat, but at the same time, players have to respect that you are the one who is keeping other decks in check, and by targeting you they are actually playing to whoever has the best late game deck.
But I digress. Aggro players just get a bad rap, you know? A lot of the time I feel like it eventually leads to there being no aggro players in a group, and then turtling strategies just run wild.
As far as the deck though, I would suggest to maybe play into combo in the late game. Having pressure early can be great, but you will always struggle to hit enough damage, and sometimes having a back up win with something like Crackdown Construct and Shuko can be great. Especially with cards like Leonin Shikari and Lightning Greaves and Rogue's Passage to give haste, pump at instant speed, and get through. I think that's how I would go honestly, something like equipment combo for the end game. That way you can use things like Mask of Memory and Quietus Spike in the early game to gain advantage, and artifacts and equipments can be easy to tutor in your colors.
Also, with all the lifegain you have (and extort which is always awesome) you could definitely run Necropotence for card advantage and maybe Lolth, Spider Queen for advantage and also to ult if anyone boardwipes you. Aggro decks in general can run planeswalkers with a little more versatility, just because you should be the one with blockers.
So, I don't know. Your deck looks great to me, and I do think that getting ganged up on is a bit unfair. Anyone who plays an aggro deck will tell you that it's always a matter of running up hill as it is. I just think that your group might be surprised if they changed up their playstyle for a few games, to get a perspective on who is winning games where they politic against you, and compare it to when they don't.
May 5, 2022 1:14 p.m.
I tend to become a public enemy, and my solution is to become such a big problem that nobody can deal with me anyway. I like playing haymaker after haymaker, so it doesn’t matter if I’m ganged up on.
That may not be possible with Edgar, I’m not sure. Instead, you can make a habit of retaliating whoever picks on you most. If you can make people scared to take the initiative in dealing with you, than nobody will try to drop you. Turn your opponents against each other with fear. Its a legit option if you can pull it off.
May 5, 2022 2:29 p.m.
I like griffstick advice. I will say some players will target you too based on your commander Edgar Markov could be part of the equation here, alot of players will just plain put pressure on that commander with that eminence ability.
I also try to simply wipe out whatever secondary durdle wincon (usually ) deck I can & realize the only way I stand a chance with true aggro is player removal on the player that is obviously built to have minimal blocking/field presence because all they do is build unstoppable late game engines.
One thing you could do is lean into making other players into combat threats as well & build your own board with more disposable/disguised threats, disposable threats would be like more recursion & ETB effects - get some vamps that do all you care about when they ETB..
I do this with Kardur, Doomscourge, play some dinky ETB creatures play an Agitator Ant then force everyone to play the aggro game. Typically no one really wants to fill my graveyard with that deck, so I just get to swing my stuff around at my discretion.
May 6, 2022 6:57 a.m.
Hi Dazard! What a great question! I avoided aggro strategies for awhile for this reason, but as my sneaky combo strategies are hard for some groups I play with to decode, I decided to make some good old honest aggro decks, and I think I've figured out a good balance.
To begin with, don't play like in a 60 card, 1v1 format. In those games you have little incentive not to go for broke all the time, and to commit all of your resources right away. In EDH there are several key principles of good aggro play.
One of them is controlled growth. Even if you can commit all of your resources to powerful plays early you shouldn't do so. You need to make sure that you set up card draw engines and other things to keep your tank full in the long run. You should be attacking, but keep in mind you don't need to attack with everything. Chip away at peoples' life totals rather than hitting one person hard. Once you slam one person you will be the archenemy of all, so don't do that till you are a turn or two from winning or they will destroy you. Knocking out an opponent early doesn't necessarily help as that person is a target for someone else and can help keep someone else under control.
A second principle is try to win all at once via pump effects. Its almost better to keep your tokens as 1/1s as long as possible and then suddenly in a single turn make them gamewinning with Coat of Arms, Shared Animosity, Jazal Goldmane, or Mirror Entity. Don't play these cards early either! Your opponents will just kill them, so play them the turn that you can win. Surprise is one of the most powerful things in EDH. If they know you can kill them you are a threat, if they don't see it coming you will win.
Thirdly is politics via threat assessment, not deals. Sometimes people just think of politics as bribery, but its better to simply point out what other opponents are doing. "Hmm..he just played Ashnod's Altar. That's a combo piece. What's he up to?" is far more powerful than promising not to attack someone. This is self-interested, but it is also helping your opponents play better by noticing more than obvious threats. When I play against aggro I might have a board wipe, and yet hold off if I'm not afraid of imminently dying to let the aggro player do some of my dirty work for me and keep attention away from the combo I am putting together. My one friend who has been quite good at aggro has become adept at pointing out what I am doing and keeping things honest. It's also a good idea with early attacks to take turns attacking different opponents for only a small amount of damage, or even rolling the dice to see who you'll attack first. If your opponents wonder why you're holding back you can just say somewhat honestly that you're trying to spread the love around and keep blockers and critical pieces in play.
A fourth principle is board state protection. Others mentioned Unbreakable Formation and Teferi's Protection as helpful cards. Don't forget also about Make a Stand, Flawless Maneuver, and Cosmic Intervention. The latter won't save your tokens, but it will save other pieces. The same is true with Eerie Interlude and Semester's End which can also dodge even a Cyclonic Rift. Lapse of Certainty can also delay a board wipe for a turn and waste your opponents' investment, and is good tech as well. Eldrazi Monument is also a good card, because you'll have endless tokens to fuel it, and all of your stuff will be flying and indestructible, keeping your opponents from easily stopping you. One final way in your deck is just by making board wipes painful, which you can do with aristocrats. Blood Artist and Syr Konrad, the Grim will make your opponent think twice about wiping the board. Again, don't commit too many resources at once, and hold up mana for protection. This helps with controlled growth and helps you rest easy during your opponents' turns.
A fifth principle that is great is to always have a backup plane for when things go wrong. One way to do this is to have a single infinite combo to win out of nowhere when things are down. When you're playing aggro opponents are always looking at your board state, but they can be taken by surprise when you combo the win. For Markov the best one is probably Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond. If your opponents can win with this stuff then its only fair that you can in a pinch too! This also fulfills the old idea talked about on MtgGoldfish that you should always have a way to win out of nowhere. The other and more honest way to do this is just to have a way to recover your board state. Patriarch's Bidding and Haunting Voyage can help you recover all of your creatures in a single turn. Having these backup plans will make life easier.
Don't get discouraged, aggro is better than ever in EDH today due to new board protection and recovery tech Wizards has printed and reprinted in the past couple of years. All you need to do is master the playstyle and you'll have a lot more fun and success!
May 6, 2022 8:42 a.m.
I studied all your comments carefully. THANKS for all the good advices. I usually dropped as much cards as i possibly could in order to gain maximum profit out of my commander. i always established a nice card draw engine Welcoming Vampire, Idol of Oblivion, Skullclamp... so i usually never ran out of hand cards...- BUT i will definitely play a little more patient and reserved next time and not show off my threats immediately. That was kinda dump i guess ;P
also i spread my "love" too much in the beginning instead of going in for the kill one by one. So that's another thing i must change in my playstyle.
Can't wait for the next edh session to see how things will turn out.
Y'all have a nice weekend!
May 6, 2022 10:44 a.m.
You too. I would say that I only play true "aggro" a little. Mostly I play goading midrange with little rampers. Most aggro I play is with disposable threats. I once played an Edgar Markov deck though that did involve some forced aggro... things like lifelinkers & Crescendo of War to turn the game upside down with aggro advantage & it actually played very well. When I focused my player removal with that deck I just picked my opponent by strategy, honed in on him, & the other players didn't have that rationale: "you slapped me earlier" they were more like: "oh well, better him than me", & I didn't go: "oh you have 45 life so I will trim that now" (that player remembers that).... Remember, life IS a resource, especially for aggro, so pressure whoever can least afford it instead of chipping at everyone frivolously & just pissing them off :)
May 6, 2022 11:47 p.m.
I'd also add a qualification here to the "spread the love around" discussion. I think this is bad when you are doing a lot of damage, as others have said. Hitting someone for ten will generally make them your enemy, even if you switch focus to another player the following turn. Hitting the, for one to three damage when you have a reason other than said damage ("I just need a land from Sword of the Animist because I'm in Mardu") is something players aren't too salty about in my experience, especially if you're not hitting the same one or just hitting them because they're open and you can get said resource. Most people including myself, in my experience, don't mind a point or two when we see a reason other than pissing someone off ("they need ramp or draw"). When you hit someone for ten though, they'll eventually come for you, so its better to hit them for forty and kill them.
May 7, 2022 9:13 a.m.
I do play a: Breena, the Demagogue deck that is quite aggro, I suppose. It plays a bunch of weenie or 1-3 CMC lifelinkers & such with a weird planewalker/tokenmaker subtheme... It gets pretty bonker's aggro, something that content creators will call a "poop" grade ability is vigilance... but in that deck it really becomes big-time beneficial to be able to peck at someone continuously & not have other players chisel at you while you can continue the aggro pain-train.
May 7, 2022 10:59 a.m.
Be one with the threat :)
its an aggressive deck so play aggressive, just accept the fact its going to be 3v1 so tune your deck for the inevitable
1st. Response - instant speed spells to protect yourself and your board state.
2nd. Recursion - its 3v1 there going to break your stuff and wipe your board so just put it all back.
3rd. Alternative Win Con - after your opponents have successfully wasted all there resources to stop you from being a threat drop a combo on the board
May 7, 2022 2:26 p.m.
golgarigirl says... #15
I like me some big stompy Naya aggro. Everything I play is a threat that will be a problem for someone if left to do it's thing (I will either recur them, make them bigger, and/or beat you to death with them).
Answering all 40 creatures in my deck is pretty much impossible with spot removal. I play the bare minimum necessary to 'set the pace' of the game...to stay in control and represent a clock. Many have additional utility, so finding the exact right place to deploy them can be crucial.
I am always holding either protection, recursion, or card draw back in case someone goes for the board clear (the best option for dealing with me) so I can recover faster and turn that board clear to my advantage.
shadow63 says... #2
Just an fyi edgar is banned in 1v1 comannder. I don't really mind people playing with banned cards but that's one that is very hard to overcome. But to help out your situation I'd say use stuff like Unbreakable Formation and Teferi's Protection to make you protected from sweepers and turn some bad combat steps to your favor
May 5, 2022 7:55 a.m.