Convoluted Combos
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on March 29, 2022, 5:17 p.m. by AstroAA
So I was reading a post by jaymc1130 (found here) where he talks about Summer Bloom combos, and as someone who runs a Titania, Protector of Argoth land combo deck, I got to thinking on how I could somehow try to incorporate a combo where lands can infinitely ETB and LTB. So, I got to thinking on how I could possibly abuse Summer Bloom to accomplish this. After a couple iterations, I finally settled on this monstrosity:
I decided to use a flow chart maker to try and illustrate the method to my madness. I tried to group each card with similar variations that could be acceptable substitutes. For example, on the left side with Crucible of Worlds, Ramunap Excavator, and Ancient Greenwarden you could use any one of those three to accomplish the task that needs to be performed - that being playing lands from the graveyard to play. Likewise on the right side of the picture, the group of five cards I view as methods to try and protect the combo. The arrows point towards what the previous card uses; like Aluren points to Eternal Witness which points to Summer Bloom which points to the Forests, etc.
You could also use Cloudstone Curio to bounce the Eternal Witness, but I feel like Cloudstone Curio combos are cheating. Disregard that little top right corner because I realized after I made it that little corner in it of itself generates infinite mana really easily with Aluren and Concordant Crossroads. Oh well. I also should've moved Lotus Cobra to where the Vernal Bloom and Heartbeat of Spring is, but I digress.
If you want an explanation on how the combo works, I'll put an accordion block with it here. That way you can try and figure it out for yourself if you want.
At a minimum, the combo follows as such:
- 1. Cast Summer Bloom, playing three additional Forests. With Lotus Cobra out, you have six mana floating, (three from Cobra, three from the forests).
- 2. Cast Eternal Witness for free with Aluren, recurring the Summer Bloom
- 3. Sacrifice the forests to Zuran Orb.
- 4. Cast Summer Bloom, going down to four mana floating, and playing the three forests from your graveyard to the battlefield netting an additional six mana for a total of 10 floating mana.
- 5. Bounce the Eternal Witness with Temur Sabertooth, going down to 8 floating mana.
- 6. Cast Eternal Witness for free with Aluren, recurring the Summer Bloom.
- 7. Sacrifice the forests to Zuran Orb
- 8. Cast Summer Bloom, going down to 6 floating mana, and playing the three forests from your graveyard to the battlefield netting an additional six mana for a total of 12 mana.
- 9. Repeat from step 5.
Holy shit. Now that I think about it, you might not need Aluren. You could theoretically just do it with Eternal Witness, but I'm not going to work through that math. When I did it with my head, you netted two mana every time because of the cost of Summer Bloom and Temur Sabertooth's ability. Feel free to yell at me or correct me in the comments. I am very bad at math.
So yeah. This is definitely a mess and probably unfeasible to pull off in games, but I had fun coming up with it regardless.
Do you all know of any convoluted combos like this? I'm quite interested in seeing them!
Lmao, this is so great. Sometimes trying to force a rube goldberg monstrosity is more fun than anything else could possibly be. Amazing, now let's see if I can figure out how your loop works, lol.
March 29, 2022 5:58 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #4
I once built a deck online called A Million Ways to Die
It had so many combos using Sliver Queen to create free Slivers to win in so ma y different ways that it all totaled out to over 1,000,000 combinations worth of cards.
March 29, 2022 6:08 p.m.
Lol, yep, combo checks out. And yeah, you can cut or replace certain pieces of it depending on what other exact pieces are being used. There are tons of combos like this and the working iterations you can find that function with only about 4 or 5 unique pieces are generally going to be the variations you'll more consistently be able to count on using in a game. The nifty thing about the Summer Bloom concept is that it's pieces are mostly going to be cards a player finds they just have "lying around" when the time comes, similar to how the classic Dramatic Scepter combo is a "2 card combo" that utilizes whatever interchangeable dorks and rocks you just so happen to have in play as it's component cogs. In many situations Summer Bloom combos will need the Summer Bloom that's just hanging out in your graveyard, a couple of different lands you already got into play, your play from graveyard effect that's been helping build up your board state the whole time, and a mechanism to return the Bloom to hand if a land isn't being used for the return mechanism. A lot of times it means this combo really only needs you to find Squandered Resources or a bounce effect for lands since the others pieces accumulated on your board as natural development plays (which can make it less likely opponents spend important resources and interaction on you since you're "just playing mana dorks and rocks").
March 29, 2022 6:09 p.m.
Ha, that is definitely a convoluted combo, but that kind of makes it so much more awesome : ) And I like that a lot of the pieces are just good cards, so it's not like you are running them just for the combo.
I'm definitely not quite pushing it that far, but I really like a combo of Tainted Sigil+ Sanguine Bond in my Selenia, Dark Angel lifegain deck. If you get both into play, and have more life than an opponent, then Selenia triggers you down to 1 life, gain it back with tainted sigil, and that's a damage bomb headed their way. It almost never works, but I do enjoy that it can work : )
March 29, 2022 6:17 p.m.
jaymc1130 Yeah, that's what surprised me about it - the only core card to the combo I'm not already running in my Titania deck is Aluren, and even then it turns on a bunch of other creatures and combos in the deck if I were to add it. Plus, you could also get infinite creatures if Titania, Protector of Argoth herself is out since I'm already sac'ing the lands to Zuran Orb.
Niko9 It took me a second, but oh my god I love it. That's fantastic.
March 29, 2022 6:24 p.m.
This is the most Johnny thing I have ever seen. Amazing! I had a student once who was obsesses with combos. Unfortunately, most of the ones he learned online were competitive, and he kept driving away newer students he had recruited to play because they had no idea what he was doing and were scared off. Not wanting to put out his love of combos, I started pushing him towards more elaborate combos, although not quite this crazy. It definitely worked! He was able to embrace his inner combo without scaring off new players, because anyone who actually saw something like this win would say it is a work of art and it was worth losing just to see it work.
March 29, 2022 7:10 p.m.
AstroAA Yep, Selenia, Dark Angel is just a fun card : ) I enjoy that just the fact that you can stack her trigger and lose more life can be a combo piece. Plus, it's really nice to have a "game over" button in a lifegain deck that can kinda prattle on sometimes.
Still nothing on your combo though : ) The effort to flow cart it legit made me smile. You're awesome!
March 29, 2022 7:11 p.m.
Guerric I love silly and convoluted combos, especially when you don't even intentionally put them in the deck. It's a phenomenal feeling when you're just sitting there thinking you're out of steam and then realize "This card interacts with this card this way, and this other card this way. This could actually work", and then "Oh shoot, I just won".
Niko9 I appreciate the compliment! I admit, I don't think my monke-brained self could've comprehended it if I didn't make some sort of visual aid.
March 29, 2022 8:05 p.m.
TheoryCrafter says... #11
LMBO! Nice!
I had a convoluted strategy in a Jeskai Enchantment Tribal Deck I theorycrafted once. The only reason I didn't pursue building the deck was because I got Priced out of some of the cards. I don't remember all the cards in the deck, but it went about like this:
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Start the game with Leyline of Anticipation on the battlefield
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Play Burning Wish to get Show and Tell
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Play Show and Tell to get Omniscience on the battlefield.
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Find and Cast Near-Death Experience.
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Find and cast Detention Sphere or Oblivion Ring to Exile Near-Death Experience.
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Cast Worldfire
Of course, this was much more linear and had Starfield of Nyx as a backup plan.
March 29, 2022 9:01 p.m.
AstroAA Sometimes a silly initial idea can lead to a fundamentally powerful truth. That's part of why our group initially started running the original Bloom Combo in any Sultai shell. There are lots of combos in the game that are very powerful, and evaluating total efficiency in competitive settings can help a player win more games by streamlining deck play patterns through deck construction techniques.
For example, a quick comparison of some of the combos we've discussed so far, Bloom Combo, Dramatic Scepter Combo, and Thoracle Consult Combo.
Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation requires 2 card slots in a deck to be able to produce a win with a total mana investment of . It's not just compact in mana investment and card slots, it's also stack compact, requiring just the Oracle trigger, holding priority, and the Consult naming a card not in the deck. All of these factors combine to make it extremely efficient at the job it does and this comes with the trade off of extremely high risk to go with such an efficient maximum reward. If your attempt gets stuffed at the point where you exile your deck but your Oracle trigger doesn't resolve successfully then you get to enjoy perhaps a turn cycle before dying immediately on your next upkeep. Extreme efficiency with the trade off of some knuckle whitening risk. It makes this a great combo to employ at a moment's notice in situations where you can fit it in while opponents didn't leave themselves with enough resources to defend against the line of play, but not usually ideal being used into the full grip and untapped mana bases of opponents ready to interact and the two cards won't generate much value while waiting for the opportune moment as they sit in hand.
Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal is a 2 card combo that generates infinite untaps of nonland permanents with a minimum of 1 additional card that itself is a nonland mana producing permanent (ie, Sol Ring). The loop can become mana positive with certain cards or combinations of cards (Mana Vault, or Arcane Signet+Sol Ring). And that infinite mana can be used with some sort of outlet card to produce a win. So it's a combo that at a minimum will require 4 cards to produce a win, though more often 5 or 6. The mana investment is to play and activate, which is more efficient than the number of card slots that will need to be dedicated to it. It's a combo with components that will have at least some value over time before the combo is activated outright since those dorks and rocks can probably cast another spell, so it has some natural play pattern efficiency. If stuffed, there's a pretty decent chance of losing access to this combo in the future. If the Scepter is destroyed in response to it's first activation, for example, you'll be out the exiled Dramatic Reversal from the imprint even if you can get the Scepter back into play later on. So still maximum reward potential, but less impactful risk to go with the slightly less efficient overall set up since you won't lose if stuffed. It's a combo that can be played pretty easily into opponents ready to defend since it will generate mana to interact with them after starting it's loop and the mana investment on your end is pretty low, but an easy one to interact with for opponents so it's liable to be one they stuff if thrown out wily nilly.
Summer Bloom + Mystic Sanctuary + Waterlogged Grove + Squandered Resources + Ramunap Excavator + Noxious Revival + green land is 7 pieces in total, but one is only needed as the "outlet" (Noxious Revival to loop the deck) and another can be essentially any random land that might be lying around to bring the core down to those 5 unique cards. With the initial 6 cards in place and Revival in the deck the initial mana investment can be as low as to begin the line of play by casting the Summer Bloom. If some of the other pieces aren't in play then the initial investment cost isn't quite so shockingly efficient, but the combo is still solid in terms of card slot and mana investment efficiency when not wowing. Not much risk if the attempt is stuffed, and there's a decent chance you can just try again by saccing the Sanctuary and replaying it to get the Summer Bloom back if countered for example, but the same maximum potential reward of winning the game. Most of the pieces of the combo are value components themselves so they fit naturally into most board state development play patterns allowing you to both spend resources reacting to opponents and amass resources in play and in hand when they don't present serious threats. By far the most conservative of these 3 combos, but far more flexible in it's approach while minimizing potential risks to lose the game.
March 29, 2022 9:31 p.m.
jaymc1130 Now you've made me want to build a Sultai deck, haha.
I'm quite familiar with both combos you mentioned. I run the Dramatic Reversal + Isochron Scepter combo in my Oona deck, where I also run Thassa's Oracle. However, I don't run Demonic Consultation because I think that its a boring card. Instead I run Doomsday because I think the concept of exiling most of your library and being left with five cards to stitch together a win is hilarious. In addition, it still leaves a bit of room for interaction from the other players - which is what I don't like about Demonic Consultation.
I think the reason why I like large and extravagant combos can be traced to my first little foray into cEDH with Selvala, Heart of the Wilds back in 2016~2017. I loved having to do a bunch of little things first before I could do a big thing in order to win. Since then, I've always tried to build combo decks to the point where they're like a large machine, and every card fits into it and enables something somewhere.
Regardless, thank you so much for inspiring the absolute mess that was the graphic/combo. I just think it's hilarious that this 10-card combo pretty much solely results in infinite mana, but can easily be expanding to helping my commander, Titania, Protector of Argoth, do what she wants to simply by having her out. There are a bunch of applications to this combo and I'm excited to sort of start looking at the deck in a different light trying to see what all cards work in ways similar to this.
March 29, 2022 10:02 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #14
Since expressed interest in convoluted combos, my entire Tayam, Luminous Enigma deck is 3-6 piece interactions for infinite Tayam activations; that shifts gears to produce some sort of infinite advantage (either with the same interactions or different ones); then kills off of the infinites made in step 2.
(Disclaimer: This is far from cEDH Tayam, I am aware of that and prefer my version because fun™. It also is not how my deck currently exists, but I moved to another deckbuilder to share the lists on facebook so as to not dox myself since I have received threats on here for answering rules questions correctly [albeit a little concededly when my correct answer was dismissed out of hand] and people on the internet are crazy. I will not be sharing the updated list for obvious reasons.)
The "A" Team (Tayam Rube Goldberg Combo)
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 13 | 9 COMMENTS | 1145 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS
March 30, 2022 3:19 a.m.
Tayam is one of the best and most fun Rube Goldberg combo commanders out there. So many nifty ways to get him to do his thing.
March 30, 2022 3:33 a.m.
DrukenReaps says... #16
Love crazy stuff like this! One of my own early combos was Junk Diver Myr Retriever Mycosynth Golem Ashnod's Altar. Several pieces were replaceable, usually the altar, and the payoff changed a lot but it was always fun to get some combination of 5+ cards to do something really cool. Actually still have the same cards in my Kozilek deck all these years later lol.
March 30, 2022 3:55 a.m.
My favorite somewhat elaborate, but also fairly competitive combo is Teysa, Orzhov Scion + Darkest Hour. It feels more fair than other two card combos because it is technically a 4-5 card combo, but other than the above two cards you only need a free sac outlet, something to sacrifice, and a kill card to win, so there are so many ways you can put it together. Also, Darkest Hour only costs , which is the height of efficiency. It is the heart of my Teysa deck, which is probably my favorite one, referenced below. One of these days soon I'll write one of my elaborate primers for it, but it's just so fun, and we're never out on the combo unless Darkest Hour is removed from play, which is why I have other ways to win.
All you Need is Greed (Under Construction)
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 3 | 174 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER
March 30, 2022 8:17 a.m.
Metroid_Hybrid says... #18
A (relatively) "early" win with the Undying-loop combo with Yawgmoth, Thran Physician sounds rather straightforward, but is actually pretty convoluted in it's execution. It's a 4+ card combo for starters, and then to actually play out all of the moving parts can be quite the pain in the ass for the entire table, especially if you're tapped-out and need to dig through your Library one-by-one until you draw a Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt, and a finisher (in my case either Sickening Dreams or Bitter Ordeal).
Decklist for reference and more detailed explanation..
March 30, 2022 6:34 p.m.
Been messing around with Food token combos this week as it's an archetype I haven't tried to break yet and breaking Food Tokens seemed like it could be fun to try. Don't think I've managed to break Food in general, but there are some pretty stronk combos out there that employ Food as it turns out.
Cauldron Familiar + Gilded Goose + Cloudstone Curio + Phyrexian Altar was the first one that came to mind, taking the classic Standard combo of Familiar Oven and turning it up to 11 by making it an infinite loop. Curio and Altar in play, cast Familiar, sac Familiar to Altar for a , cast the Gilded Goose, make food, sac the food to bring back Familiar and bouncing Goose to hand. Rinse repeat to kill the table. Cool, but no where near awkward enough for the kinds of casual decks I like to make for games at the LGS. So I dug deeper looking for a sillier iteration of the line.
Academy Manufacturer + Witch's Oven + Cauldron Familiar + Clock of Omens was where I ended up next, still relatively card slot efficient but NOW we're using some much goofier cards and since the only requirement is Black as a color I can slap this combo into any old deck with Black as a color. Tap the Oven, sac the Familiar, make a Food, Treasure, and Clue, tap the Food and the Clue to untap the Oven, sac the food to bring back the Familiar. Rinse repeat to not only kill the table, but, just in case, also begin a loop that ultimately generates infinite mana and infinite card draw as that Treasure token is still lying around unused and it's possible to simply tap the Treasures to start using the Clues to draw out. Much more ridiculous due to the overkill factor of generating infinite damage, draw, and mana all at once.
Yeah, this is what I do in my spare time. Or while just driving down the highway mentally drifting off.
March 31, 2022 6:08 a.m. Edited.
LordCelticGuardian says... #20
Eternal Witness+Temur Sabertooth allow many combos for sure repeatedly getting pieces back with infinite mana.
A combo I've used in my Selvala, Heart of the Wilds deck before uses her to set up the combo with an infinite way of producing mana via having a creature with at least 5 power in play and the likes of Sword of the Paruns or Umbral Mantle to repeately tap and untap her. From there you combine both Beast Within+Somberwald Stag to turn all your opponents' boards into 3/3 Beasts then have Somberwald Stag fight them all then return both cards with Eternal Witness+Somberwald Stag until your opponents have nothing left.
March 31, 2022 9:01 a.m.
LordCelticGuardian says... #21
Sorry Eternal Witness+Temur Sabertooth as stated at the top of my comment.
March 31, 2022 9:03 a.m.
LordCelticGuardian I absolutely love Selvala, Heart of the Wilds. I initially built her not long after she came out, and she's the commander that sort of pushed me into building more combo-oriented decks and into the cEDH fold. I loved the way she ran with a bunch of untap spells, as trying to piece together a win always felt rewarding when you could pull it off.
TypicalTimmy says... #2
Engulfing Slagwurm + Nemesis Mask is a fun starter. Lots of nonsense you can build off of that.
March 29, 2022 5:31 p.m.