9/13 Commander Banning/Unbanning
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Sept. 13, 2021, 1:22 p.m. by NinjaBunny01
Since I haven't seen it posted yet. They banned Golos, Tireless Pilgrim and unbanned Worldfire.
DrukenReaps says... #3
The reasons for banning Golos just feel ...weak. Like where did they get the data to support this? I see 1 Golos deck in my meta. Sure it is strong without much effort but so is Atraxa, Praetors' Voice, Kenrith, the Returned King, and Sisay, Weatherlight Captain.
I guess I'll take the opportunity to play worldfire but I'm not going to tell people they can't play Golos.
September 13, 2021 1:55 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #4
Rule 0 Golos decks ;)
Though I'm sad now. He was my Commander for my God Tribal deck IRL. Has all 10 fetches and shocks and like 21 Gods or something. Golos might not have aided in the devotion, but he helped with the varied mana costs.
September 13, 2021 1:59 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #5
Once people realize Chandra, Awakened Inferno is now a wincon with Worldfire as an emblem is not a permanent, they both will go up. Mark my words.
September 13, 2021 2 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #6
Ah yes, I see you are a person of culture as well TypicalTimmy. That is honestly the first thing that shot into my mind when I saw the unbanning.
The Golos ban is a bit of a head scratcher to me. Like I hate Golos. Both playing with it and against it, but it is no where near needing a banning.
September 13, 2021 2:12 p.m.
CasualCucumber says... #7
I have never played Golos, Tireless Pilgrim nor have I played against him. But I don't really agree with this banning, but its not affecting me, so I can move on - but I am feeling bad for all those Golos decks. I wonder how they gather their data - is it through reddit? Twitter? Most game stores must have very different metas to analyze to base their views on.
September 13, 2021 2:44 p.m.
Step 1: Cast Worldfire.
Step 2: With Worldfire on the stack, activate ability of either: Blisterspit Gremlin, Brimstone Trebuchet, Lightning-Rig Crew, Lobber Crew, Nettle Drone or Thermo-Alchemist.
Step 3: With ability and Worldfire on the stack, cast either: Dualcaster Mage, Fork, Fury Storm, Increasing Vengeance, Reiterate, Reverberate or Wild Ricochet targeting Worldfire.
Off-color options: Basilica Guards, Basilica Screecher, Blind Obedience, Crypt Ghast, Kingpin's Pet, Syndic of Tithes, Thrull Parasite, Tithe Drinker, Witherbloom Apprentice, Refuse / Cooperate, Insidious Will, Narset's Reversal, Twincast, Naru Meha, Master Wizard.
(This is by no means an exhaustive list, it just happens to be the best mana-cost effective cards I could find.)
September 13, 2021 2:52 p.m.
In my opinion both biorhythm and sway the stars are less "feel bad" then world fire if they don't get countered. Also banning golos seems unjustifiable. But then most creature bans do.
September 13, 2021 2:58 p.m.
Oh, I forgot to mention cards like, Quicken, Ride the Avalanche, Leyline of Anticipation, Teferi, Time Raveler, Tidal Barracuda, Vedalken Orrery, Alchemist's Refuge and Emergence Zone also works too.
September 13, 2021 3 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #11
My guess is the RC wanted other 5c commanders to be viable, and as it stood they were all just worse than Golos. Idk.
Not sure about Worldfire...
September 13, 2021 3:06 p.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #12
StopShot...or just Teferi's Protection and win next turn.
September 13, 2021 3:58 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #14
I'm starting to believe the RC are just a bunch of childish babies who get salty in their own games, then ban the cards they don't like. So many banned cards are absolutely insane.
September 13, 2021 4:01 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #15
Worldfire has already gone from about a dollar to over twenty. I don't get it. It's not that good. I'd still play Apocalypse over this.
September 13, 2021 4:06 p.m.
Yeah, Worldfire isn't like previous cards where they were unbanned because there were simply enough powerful cards that they weren't really an issue anymore.
Don't get me wrong, though. I'm going to use it. We should all use it.
September 13, 2021 4:08 p.m.
September 13, 2021 4:24 p.m.
Coward_Token says... #19
Yeah the Golos ban just feels bizzare, and that's from someone who's never built him. Kenrith, Najeela, Jodah, Ramos are all perfectly functional alternatives for open-ended 5-color strategies. I don't see him being all that oppresively unfun as most other cards on the banlist either. Now you're just limiting people from doing fun stuff, Dungeon Descent as a secret commander.
September 13, 2021 4:44 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #20
I think Naj is far, far more toxic than Golos ever was. This comes from having played against both and built both.
Sure Golos cheats up to three spells per turn and more when you get infinite mana, but docking an infinite combo for doing its job is unfair. Plus Golos whiffs most of the time anyway.
But Naj? She is designed for unending abuse and massive turns that take forever to finish.
And I've seen far more salt from Naj players who don't get to win than from Golos players who wheel into nothing but lands.
With Naj, you EXPECT to win, thus it feels horrible when you can't. With Golos, you HOPE you can win but recognize that unless you can stack your deck, there's not a whole lot you can do other than wheel as many times as possible and hope you built your deck right for the current table.
This means with Naj, when you win, because it's expected, you look down at other players. With Golos, when you win, it feels like a supreme victory because it actually fucking worked for once
September 13, 2021 4:53 p.m.
I recommend reading Charlotte's (a member of the CAG) article on the Golos ban. She does a good job explaining the RC's thought process and why the decision was made, even if said decision seems a bit counter-intuitive. Here is the link. It is a fairly short article, so, rather than summarize it, I will just suggest reading the Golos portion in full (and the Worldfire one if interested in that issue).
I have said it before and I will say it again--part of the problem with banned and restricted announcements is how Sheldon writes them. A combination of English not being his first language and his rather dismissive attitude toward large segments of the community result in banned and restricted announcements that come off as out-of-touch, creating confusion and problems where none need exist.
September 13, 2021 5:16 p.m.
DrukenReaps says... #22
Caerwyn thanks, that seems to convey their thoughts better. Even if I still very much disagree with the ban.
I am happy about the unban and I'm hoping that after a few more quarterly updates we can see some of the other big splashy effects come off the ban list.
September 13, 2021 5:40 p.m.
Read the rules committee's statement....still seems like they threw darts and then made up a justification later.
September 13, 2021 6:57 p.m.
golgarigirl says... #24
I personally agree with the ban, but I had no real stakes either way. No one in my group plays it. I understand and support the philosophy as to why, though, and definitely had a strong gut response to the card when it was initially spoiled that it might be a problem commander.
That said, if you want to see a show, the Commander RC discord is real fun right now >_>
Shivam did say in chat they'd been mulling over this ban for about 10 months, for everyone who thinks this decision was a random knee-jerk reaction to something.
September 13, 2021 8:04 p.m.
Many users posted on other topics suggesting to make edh and cedh separate formats
I think this is a perfect example to support that idea.
I can see why edh perspective would agree with the rc ban on golos based on middle tier play needing diversity. And I can see why cedh perspective would disagree where diversity is null and power is everything
September 13, 2021 8:31 p.m.
So golos was banned for being too popular? That's the worst kind of ban
September 13, 2021 8:43 p.m.
Caerwyn: Reading the article you linked, it's completely counter intuitive (as you mentioned). The RC talks about a lack of diversity in running Golos as you commander and yet lists a bunch of different builds in the same article.
And even with goodstuff decks, the attitiude that one goodstuff deck looks exactly the same as another completely undermines lower levels of play (and basically any battlecruiser deck).
Bans like this will actually regress creativity, as all that will happen is that everyone will move back to running Child of Alara as their 5C goodstuff commander. Remember those days?
As for the Worldfire unbanning, isn't there somebody in the RC or CAG who has a Jhoira deck? I feel like with these unbannings, the RC/CAG should have a full list of their current decks (or at least commanders) which is live on the official commander website. I am aware that three of the RC have a list of current commanders, but that's not the whole decision making crew. Unbannings like this and Metalworker (I think somebody had a Sharuum deck at the time) feel just a little bit alterior motive-y.
September 13, 2021 8:54 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #28
Was Golos the problem, or is the problem really that it’s even possible to make a fast(ish) WUBRG deck? The non-basic genie will never return to Aladdin's Lamp, but still. Area Man Just Sayin’(tm).
September 13, 2021 9:41 p.m.
Totally bs banning this is the one card that makes “gates” worth a damn and now the mazes end EDH decks will be the ones to suffer most here
September 13, 2021 9:46 p.m.
griffstick says... #30
Dockside Extortionist is more ban worthy in my opinion.
September 13, 2021 10:05 p.m.
DrukenReaps says... #31
golgarigirl (this is nothing against you at all, just responding to your comment) The RC mulling it over for 10 months means very little if they gave people little to no indication they were mulling it over. They do these meetings quarterly I believe? That means there were at least 2 times they could have said "we are discussing a ban on X, Y, and Z"
There was hardly anyone clamoring for this ban as well so it wasn't exactly on the radar for a lot of folks. I never once heard any of the content/newsy types discuss it. Unlike Flash or Hullbreacher. Which people were being quite loud about for quite awhile.
I think it would be a big benefit to the RC if they simply put out a list of cards they are watching. There would be a lot less gut reaction to announcements like this if the community had expectations set ahead of time. Most folks that I'm seeing comment, even some who agree with the ban, seem to indicate more often that they didn't see this coming and find some of the logic (or lack thereof) confusing. Rather than enlightening.
September 13, 2021 10:06 p.m. Edited.
fadelightningmm says... #32
Now I want to be perfectly clear with my statement: Golos seems like the exact type of card the RC would ban. Golos halves it’s own casting cost from the command zone, fixes mana, is a versatile land tutor, and is an infinite mana sink on a colorless card whose identity allows you to play any busted card you like. The biggest surprise with the ban is that the RC didn’t ban it earlier.
That said idk if Golos is a card I would’ve banned it’s powerful, but so are a lot of commanders.
Worldfire being unbanned is neat though. I wish biorhythm got unbanned, but we can’t always get what we want
September 13, 2021 10:15 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #33
They should ban Thrasios. If you want to talk about infinite mana and hour-long turns, ban that thing.
September 13, 2021 10:34 p.m. Edited.
TypicalTimmy says... #34
I mean, seriously let's use their very own logic here.
Thrasios and Tymna or however her name is spelled. The cEDH deck. Unless I am remembering wrong, isn't that the single most consistent deck there is? Meaning there is literally no reason to not play it if your goal is to win?
So, knowing this, and knowing that their stance on Golos was that he was merely "the best" and that there was "no reason to play other 5c Commanders", the same applies to T&T.
I think of the two, Thrasios is the worse offender as she (he?) is a wincon all by itself. The other is nice to have but you're going to what, land 3 cards max? Big whoop. It's bad, sure, but not game breaking.
September 13, 2021 11:34 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #35
T&T aren't as ubiquitous among other power levels, and the RC isn't as concerned with cEDH as it is casual commander. Remember how one of the concerns stated was that goodstuff Golos was bleeding down into the lower power levels? That's the sort of thing they worry about.
September 14, 2021 1:11 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #36
Omniscience_is_life, that seems kinda silly from my perspective.
- Hey let's ban a whole bunch of super fun cards for casual play where the stakes are low and a bunch of friends wanna have a good time.
- And f- off with cEDH they can break the game as much as they want.
Seems, idk... kinda backwards in my opinion. Oh well.
September 14, 2021 1:14 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #37
See, I ran Golos as my God Tribal Commander because of two reasons,
-
With Morophon, the Boundless, it was incredibly hard to function around. While it is true that Morophon makes the Gods cost WUBRG less, I am also left with needing to sort out powerful enough draw to ensure that I can dump my library asap. Plus, Morophon takes so long to get out that a very substantial portion of the deck must be dedicated toward land drops and ramp. What this meant is a massive swath of the deck was either colorless mana rocks or sorcery spells that fetch lands into play. Both of these, while seemingly wonderful ideas, come with the problem of not advancing Devotion. Meaning that it doesn't matter if I can drop 2 or 3 Gods in a turn; They aren't creatures and thus I am a sitting duck.
-
Sisay, Weatherlight Captain was an alternative choice, but I very much disliked how mechanical she became. You'd want to (and frankly, be forced to) search for Gods in a very specific manner in order to progress her Power. The issue here is that it became increasingly difficult to tutor for appropriate Gods, because their Devotion held them back. I am not a fan at all of decks that play one very specific way. I love the flexibility and chaos of having to struggle to win. That's why I don't play cEDH or what others might consider to be a true "combo" deck. Can I build them? Sure. Can I buy them? Yes. Will I derive any meaningful enjoyment from them? No, not really.
What Golos, Tireless Pilgrim allowed me to do is sink mana into him and wheel out Gods for free. It's better than Morophon because I get potentially 3 for the price of 1 and don't need to saturate my deck with draw. He's also better than Sisay because I get 3x the benefit without the hindering Power-condition. I also garner a third benefit from not feeling mechanical. Finally, I can have massive permanents that boost my Devotion incredibly quickly in the deck and, every so often, slam those into play out of nowhere. The deck became fluid, flexible and enjoyable. Would I always win? Oh no, absolutely not. But would I constantly have fun, each and every game? Absolutely.
And that's what matters most to me. I genuinely do not care if I lose; I care if I had fun. I can have a blast even if I am the first to lose, because if my deck did what it was designed to do and I made the table hate me, I got to play with a smile.
That's honestly why my username is what it is. I just want to play big, stupid spells and have giant mana dumps to do ignorant nonsense. It's a game and it shouldn't be taken so seriously. It's a place to relax, pull off some jank and have laughs.
I'd rather lose 3 out of 4 games and enjoy every second of it, than win 3 out of 4 games and go home infuriated that I lost one.
September 14, 2021 1:30 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #38
TypicalTimmy The RC is banning Golos (ostensibly) because of how they view it in casual circles--not fun. cEDH makes up a relatively small portion of the community (being a made-up format within a made-up format), and the RC has stated they don't want cEDH informing their decisions. So if their findings point to Golos messing with the fun of low-powered pods, they'll ban it. They will take a quick look at cEDH, see a similar situation of homogenization, and decide what they've just done.
Now, I don't personally know how to feel about this banning--I'm purposefully waiting to think deeply about it so I can play devil's advocate :p
September 14, 2021 1:31 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #39
Also wait--your last post there didn't help your case, friend. One of the huge reasons the RC banned Golos is because it was always the best option. Also try Esika lol
September 14, 2021 1:32 a.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #40
Honestly, the "best" option for a God Tribal deck is Progenitus, because with him in play, you are assured Devotion for everything.
And there are ways to get Pro into play very, very quickly. Then you can saturate your deck with draw and ramp, because your Devotion is now online.
Suddenly your boardstate is untouchable and you're blowing up triggers left and right. I say this because, even with Golos, you can wheel into absolutely nothing. Ever hit three lands? Yeah, it totally sucks.
Golos isn't the "best" option, so much as the "easiest" one. Like, imagine hitting three Gods. Keranos, Iroas and Thassa. Awesome!
Nobody is online. You're a wide-open duck. quack quack. It could take three, even four turns of wheeling before Gods are viable blockers, much less attackers. On the other hand, Pro lands devotion almost immediately, every single time.
September 14, 2021 1:37 a.m. Edited.
TypicalTimmy says... #41
- Command Beacon
- Sac
- Progenitus in hand
- Sneak Attack into play
- Flicker
Sneak Attack now loses sight of Progenitus and thus you don't sac him at the end of turn. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. With the amount of tutors you have in WUBRG, you can land this practically every single game. There's more efficient ways, also. Goryo's Vengeance would be ideal. Get Pro into your hand and discard him. Then flicker at end of turn.
Green has plenty of ways to tutor out non-basic lands, too, ensuring you always find Beacon. For example, Crop Rotation, Scapeshift, Hour of Promise and Expedition Map. Not to mention you can always just tutor a land via .
Pro gets removed somehow? Not a problem. You can always play Command Beacon from your graveyard using something such as Restore, Wrenn and Six and Crucible of Worlds, as some examples.
Then, it's as simple as dumping Gods into play. Because Gods count their own pips with regards to devotion, you only ever need +1 or +2 more.
A mono-colored God such as Heliod, God of the Sun, for example, needs 5 and counts his own. So with Pro in play, you need more. Comparatively, Pharika, God of Affliction needs 7x total in any combination of and . She already contains , so she needs a total of 5 more. Pro contains , bumping her devotion count up to +6. She literally needs +1 more pip to be online.
So yes, in my opinion Progenitus is the "Best" God Tribal Commander.
But, for me, Golos is more fun.
- Pro triggers in the graveyard to be put into-
Goryo in response. ;)
September 14, 2021 2:06 a.m. Edited.
TypicalTimmy: Neither of those options to cheat Progenitus into play work the way you want them to. You can Sneak Attack it into play, but you can't use single target flicker effects since Progenitus has protection from everything. That means it can't be targeted. Full stop.
Additionally, Progenitus never hits the graveyard. It's not a triggered ability like the Eldrazi titans, it's a replacement ability. So you can't reanimate it either.
Just as a side note - I understand that this is in relation to a deck that you have/had which was commanded by Golos, however please be careful not to derail the thread about the most recent banning/unbanning with a full blown discussion about re-tooling your deck. If you would like to talk about it, I would recommend creating a dedicated thread for it so it doesn't bog this one down.
September 14, 2021 2:38 a.m.
Does anyone remember when Sliver Queen was the top 5 color general? For those that don't these 5 color access 7/7 token generators were not sliver tribal. This was edh in its prime. Edh was everything it was ment to be "a fun break from the other formats". Well unpopular choices made in other formats mixed with the appeal of the fun in edh format lead to a time where edh "unsupported format" card sales over powered standard card sales. As a result it became a target market and woc targeted it the only way they know how "including all the mistakes they made that killed the popularity of other formats"
Ok. So why am I rambling on about this on a golos ban thread??
Glad you asked, 1st there's alot more to it. I just tried to keep it short and sweet. These changes could have easily lead to the death of the format, I for one was a doomssayer of woc targeting the market. And like clock work woc has consistently done everything as predicted that would ruin the format. However the rc has not reacted as predicted. They have done an absolutely fantastic job rolling with the punches. They have been extremely flexible letting the format grow and evolve into a whole new beast. So if there going to ban a few cards this year to try and preserve some of the format I for one am not going to complain. becouse I know there is hundreds of cards and even whole mechanics that they could have banned already but chose to let slide.
September 14, 2021 7:33 a.m.
CasualCucumber says... #44
With the banning and reasoning regarding Golos, Tireless Pilgrim, I wonder whether other goodstuff commanders like Kenrith, the Returned King and Chulane, Teller of Tales will suffer the same fate.
September 14, 2021 8 a.m.
NinjaBunny01 says... #45
They admitted they are watching those plus Korvold, Fae-Cursed King
September 14, 2021 8:34 a.m.
golgarigirl says... #46
Genuine question for everyone who’s upset at how sudden this ban was: How should it have been done (assuming it did need to be done)?
Would you have wanted more community discussion? Is the idea of financial manipulation worrisome?
Also, for me, the idea that unbanning in a year or so is not off the table (see Worldfire) is helpful, pending the ongoing community discussion.
September 14, 2021 8:59 a.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #47
I'm just mad because I've got a Golos coming in the mail.
September 14, 2021 9:41 a.m.
Coward_Token says... #48
golgarigirl: While I don't believe I'm "upset", I think they should have asked people about it beforehand rather than keeping it to themselves for almost a year. What's the point of a "community created format" if the default is ultimitely decided by the the shadowy council of some opaque ivory tower?
September 14, 2021 10:11 a.m.
golgarigirl: They need waaaaaay more transparency around the process.
I'm of the opinion that they should implement the following lists on the official commander website for everybody to plainly see:
-
list of cards which are currently under discussion of getting banned
-
list of cards which are currently under discussion of being unbanned (especially since we have seen every card which gets unbanned skyrocket in price)
-
list of all teh current commanders AND decklists for ALL current RC and CAG members to ensure that there aren't any "I want to run XYZ in my deck" motives.
I think that it would greatly help increase their community engagement and would remove a lot of the unknown factors around bannings. Want ot build around a specific commander but they've been flagged as a potential ban? Well now you're informed and can make a measured assessment about whether or not you want to spend money on the cards.
September 14, 2021 10:12 a.m.
Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor says... #50
golgarigirl: Simply a lack of transparency. Ever since the Iona ban, the RC takes an action (often out of left field) and then try to justify it post action by making sweeping claims about the community while never providing any actual data to support their claims. Then anytime someone questions them they just hide behind Rule 0. In the past, when the format was much smaller, this operational method was alright, but now with commander as big as it is, it doesn't work anymore and just pisses people off.
DrukenReaps says... #2
I was having trouble getting the official commander site to load so here is this article for peeps
Unbanning Worldfire is... interesting. There are a few other cards that create similar states to Worldfire that are still banned like Biorhythm and Upheaval. Granted in different ways. But Worldfire can both be used to reset the board or win the game. Also Sway of the Stars is just blue Worldfire.
September 13, 2021 1:43 p.m.