I'd like to know if the following Flicker cards work these ways... & an Update on my Orzhov Deck.

Commander Deck Help forum

Posted on March 11, 2019, 11:01 a.m. by BMHKain

Altar of the Brood + Felidar Guardian

According to some, it was stated that Felidar Guardian can flicker herself; though I wanted to be sure myself; after reading the card's ability...

When Felidar Guardian enters the battlefield, you may exile another target permanent you control, then return that card to the battlefield under its owner’s control.

"Another", being the key word. If Felidar Guardian is incapable of Bouncing herself over & over alongside a mass mill engine like Altar of the Brood , I'll be more than happy to remove the combo from there.

However...

The next card I just wanted an opinion on is, sadly, not in that many Superfriends Decks AT ALL. & she's Top-Secret Tech for the Deck archetype as her Second Loyalty ability can be abused for, potentially, Infinite Loyalty Ability use. Yep. It's...

Aminatou, the Fateshifter

Her Second Loyalty Ability states, & I quote:

-1: Exile another target permanent you own, then return it to the battlefield under your control.

Can't believe there is a ruling about this as well:

Aminatou’s second ability can target any permanent you own, including those another player controls. (2018-07-13)

So why does so few use Aminatou in Superfriends? Just with her Second Loyalty Ability can she bounce Walkers you control w/o the risk that you can't use them again on the same turn.

Since I'll be making a Primer for Superfriends, I'm going to need a list of Anti-Walker Tech to defend such beings from. Obviously The Immortal Sun , AEther Snap are what I can think of. Does anyone know the rest? Don't worry, I'll get to the primer soon enough; although...


Orzhov's Weapon against Animar...

Commander / EDH* BMHKain

11 COMMENTS | 173 VIEWS


As I stated, Animar, Soul of Elements isn't the biggest problem. W/ so many creatures w/ either resistance to having Sacced Permanents Sigarda, Host of Herons , High amounts of Toughness (Anything over, say, 4.), & stuff that is immune to all this deck has to offer. As a result, I wanted for the longest time what (Orzhov)'s biggest enemies really are; as I wanted to resise above deck, & not just make cuts. What would be this deck's biggest opposition as Orzhov Standards be? Now I feel like Orzing (OTL)... I'd like your opinions on these. If the ruling about Aminatou above is true; should it also work for Felidar Guardian ? & what's the biggest opponents against (ORZ)hov, & how to thwart each one? I hope this helps a bit even... Thank you. ^_^

SynergyBuild says... #2

You know the -1 ability on Aminatou is why she is used in the Tezzeret Combo, right?

Here is the combo if you are unaware:

Requirements on field: Tezzeret the Seeker , Aminatou, the Fateshifter

Requirements in deck or on field: Basalt Monolith , Rings of Brighthearth , Goblin Cannon

Use Tezzeret's -3 to fetch a Rings of Brighthearth , -1 Aminatou targeting Tezzeret, then -4 Tezzeret, copying the ability with Rings to fetch Basalt Monolith & Goblin Cannon , use Monolith&Rings to make infinite mana, stack infinite Cannon triggers killing each opponent.

March 11, 2019 11:06 a.m.

BMHKain says... #3

@SynergyBuild: (Jaw drops farther down to the point of Unrealistic Toon Force; even for such standards...XP)

Well, I was going to put in the Rings of Brighthearth + Basalt Monolith + Sol Ring (Why does nobody else include the Sol Ring part? :/) combo. Another thing I was going to put in the Primer is that Teferi, Hero of Dominaria has outclassed Venser, the Sojourner in terms of abilities. That, & Aminatou, the Fateshifter outclasses Venser's +2 Ability for getting your stuff back quicker.

REALLY unfortunate nobody uses Aminatou in Superfriends; she does really well in there, Blinking other Walkers (& potentially, herself), for a true example of high potential of Nigh-Infinite Activations even The Chain Veil may actually be out classed.

But I digress on that matter. I still am seeking answers for 's toughest CMDRs to fight against; not in terms of cEDH Tierlisting, but by the commanders & what better defense they have against Orzhov than anyone else.

But the final thing I need currently is a list of cards that can either A: Shut Down a Superfriends Deck B: Token/Counter Annihilation. C: Anything that can Stop a Walker in general; besides just Planeswalker/Permanent Spot Removal.

But if such combos are true, the real final question is can either Felidar Guardian / Aminatou, the Fateshifter flicker themselves back? A ruling about the Latter states you can, but I just want to know about both cases here.

But that all said, HOLY... Sure, I'll probably never add Goblin Cannon in a Primer where Planeswalkers are the primary purpose, though I'd rather use Tezzeret the Seeker elsewhere instead sadly... Sick combo though... :)

March 11, 2019 11:46 a.m.

Boza says... #4

Neither Aminatou, nor Felidar can target themselves with their own ability. So Altar + felidar on its own is not a combo. You need Aminatou being blinked by Felidar to power this combo.

March 11, 2019 12:20 p.m.

Hamroids says... #5

Felidar Guardian and Aminatou can definitely not flicker themselves, for exactly the reason you thought. "Another" means another. A card that isn't this one. But if you get both out, Guardian can flicker Aminatou (who is now considered a new instance of the card and can activate again), then she can flicker the Guardian, then it can flicker her, etc. infinitely.

March 11, 2019 12:23 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #6

Remember you need an outlet for infinite mana, so Goblin Cannon works. Sol Ring or Mana Vault or Mana Crypt ... Grim Monolith , etc. can do the trick too, however they don't leave you with anything more than infinite mana, so you need an exterior outlet for the inf mana.

Sensei's Divining Top or Staff of Domination would draw your deck, so... I guess that'd work too, but the cannon doesn't require any other cards in the deck.

Remember Walking Ballista won't work because it won't enter with counters and will immediately die.

March 11, 2019 12:34 p.m.

BMHKain says... #7

@(Whatever at this point): Oh. Crap. Well, at least the #CATMEGEDDON has subsided, despite one saying Felidar Guardian can target herself for infinite Altar of the Brood triggers.

Also, an even BIGGER blow for Superfriends; now I clearly understand why nobody uses a single digit aged Walker w/ the power level of Base Nicol Bolas (Pre-Mending/WAR era). I do wonder if there is a permanent that can bounce such Walkers, & back right away. I'm trying to search via Scryfall, & nothing. The new Serra Walker looks awesome though...

Alright, I'll have to remove such a combo that the Truth PSAs lied to me about. I might also need help about what permanent to replace Aminatou, the Fateshifter w/, & no, I'm thinking of something besides Felidar Guardian . Any ideas?

Finally, my deck needs room for improvement from other enemies, & I still need to know what Orzhov has to beat threats like Sigarda, Host of Herons , & stuff more menacing than merely Animar.

Any ideas?

March 11, 2019 12:58 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #8

All sweepers excluding sacrifice ones hit Sigarda, and so I'd run some of them...

Also since it often just swings, run anti-damage cards, or anti-creature cards like the following:

March 11, 2019 1:15 p.m.

BMHKain says... #9

@SynergyBuild: Hmph… Alright. Still trying to find support for Aminatou, the Fateshifter though... Maybe it does require Felidar Guardian after all... Any objections/alts for the Guardian?

March 12, 2019 8:54 a.m.

BMHKain says... #10

BUMP THE DAMN TORPEDOS!

Alright, an update. Finally found out how Felidar Guardian can be useful in a Superfriends CMDR Deck; Aminatou, the Fateshifter can use her -1 Loyalty ability to bounce another Walker that used a Loyalty ability prior, & if it can be copied, she can bounce Felidar Guardian , & as she enters the battlefield again, bounces Aminatou & comes back, all of those behaving as if they never knew their prior existence. Rinse, & repeat after every time another walker coming back into play uses just one Loyalty ability. FAR more value than one would think; & can help for all walkers this way, potentially allowing for infinite Loyalty Abilities. ALL WITHOUT The Chain Veil . Jank, but at least the Guardian can even be used w/ Saheeli Rai as a combo that has been known to even be banned in some formats. This is why Estrid, the Masked got booted from even 2-Star status as the only way she would help is w/ Enchanted Evening ; but that would have to reduce the assistance value for Walkers as it only applies to her. Felidar Guardian , however is Value Town when combined w/ Aminatou, the Fateshifter as endless blinking, & support for Saheeli Rai. These reasons, & more will show why as of now, Venser, the Sojourner will have a significantly lower score w/ the Walkers now available. Oh, & before I get off this topic, how does one make such a Primer in a way that seems more efficient? I see Primers have layers w/ sublayers. All in the Description. I don't suppose anyone can help w/ this kind of thing? I just need to put my categories in check.

On other things, I still need to cut quite a bit for an Orzhov deck, but I don't know the most powerful CMDR it can handle; Zur? 100% Loss rate; so it doesn't count. But what is this deck/color identity's most powerful opponent as a whole? Once I find a good weakness for that CMDR, I'll try & find what's available that can dispatch it. I just want to know the CMDR name I'm dealing as this deck's biggest challenge.

Oh, & if you don't mind, I'm planning to do some card creation; Mono-, & Planeswalker, but the abilities are not what you'd expect for ; I just wish this place had a CHAOS symbol I could use for this... You know, Planechase?

Over & out.

March 17, 2019 4:34 p.m.

BMHKain says... #11

YOU BUMP EM, I'LL RUMPROAST THEM, LET'S DO THE CARAMELLDANSEN!

(Caramelldansen plays.)

(Pile of Questions spins until the latch for them opens...)

The Ur-Dragon: Tibalt is a FAR better Walker than Davriel Cane!

/endbump

As I still don't have any answers on what the biggest opponent Orzhov can fight & has more of a chance to lose, than win; I'd like some ideas. Once I find the right CMDR, I'll adapt my Orzhov deck further based on how to beat it. Then we'll talk abut cuts; though Edicts are the obvious first to die as I already have enough needed to deal w/ Animar, Soul of Elements , & even Sigarda #1 ( Sigarda, Host of Herons ). All suggestions for the most powerful CMDR Orzhov can fight, & have a hard time beating are welcome. I just want answers soon though; I dunno if anyone remembers this exists though...

March 18, 2019 2:13 p.m.

BMHKain says... #12

@SynergyBuild: Well? What do you think the hardest CMDR an Orzhov CMDR can take on? I mean, we're using Board Wipes, Council's Judgment , basically anything that bypasses any Protection effects. But what if there is a CMDR that can beat the "DEBT" concept entirely? Then what is the most powerful CMDR Orzhov can still beat, but have a bigger chance of losing? I've been asking for some answers for a while now. Maybe you can help? That, & I'm still trying to hardcode my Description for a Primer in the hopes to have categories, & Subcategories within even... Any advice for this?

March 19, 2019 8:54 a.m.

SynergyBuild says... #13

BMHKain What?

Honestly that last one doesn't make any sense. I have no clue what you mean?

If the opponent has bad enough draws, a colorless commander with 99 Wastes and some random eldrazi commander can get there. Or like if they cast Demonic Consultation in a lab-man list like Kess and end up accidentally exiling Lab man, killing themselves.

March 19, 2019 10:23 a.m.

BMHKain says... #14

@SynergyBuild: So, I suppose such a deck in question is fine enough? I was asking to be sure. For the last part of my previous comment, I'm currently trying to make a Primer for Superfriends; though what I have so far for walkers (I'm still at the start of all this, but the description is very unorganized, & some descriptions for some of the Walkers in question seem too much in a style not even most MTG players would've recognized anyway; this will be fixed though, when, I dunno…) is only the start of ~>140 (Plus the Heroes of the Realm Walkers & whether or not they deserve to be brought to the public... But Urza, Academy Headmaster ; what does http://www.askurza.com have to do w/ Loyalty? Aw well... I just hope the random results mean something powerful for him in an Unformat...). That said, does categorizing them require, say, Accorions? Ordered/Unordered Lists? After I get my answer on this, I should be all set... But, yeah. Thanks.

Oh, & I wasn't referring to Kess; more likely than not, she would have a better chance of winning, so Tier 1 cEDH Commanders are out, mostly; though just exiling such tutoring, from what I'm reading, Walkers wouldn't do much, & even stuff like Kess (Kas, in my book.), actually seems tame? Intriguing... (Spock: ... (Eyebrow Raised.) Chess.) Well, I was merely trying to find the Colors; biggest weakness for CMDRs, & how at least one can best anything Orzhov can even do. Now I think about it, I need to put in Oblivion Stone in the primer in the future Wrath section; how such a deck would work, when one is able to use such a deck, makes it stronger than most of its kin even. Back to Orzhov though, if the color's biggest opponents like CMDRs, & even Kess aren't strong enough, maybe we should wind it down a little from cEDH Ragequiting to a little less competitive, but still among the lines of Semi-Competitive, perhaps; though I'm confounded something like this can potentially anti-meta a cEDH Tier 1. I hope this post isn't too much for you though... & to think; I just found a forum post of mine about Philosophies... Maybe I might be able to make a Custom Planeswalker that's based, all while resembling that of a human; even though that being's philosophies is different from all conventional human life. Great... now I'm going to have to plan to do 2 Card Creation Challenges to myself now... OxO'

March 19, 2019 11:19 a.m.

BMHKain says... #15

@SynergyBuild: What I'm trying to say is: I wanted to know 's biggest bane in CMDR is as a CMDR; the hardest can handle while still having a shred of a chance of winning. If Animar, Soul of Elements isn't it, & neither is Sigarda, Host of Herons , then who is harder than either? Once I get the results imputed, & find out what weakness' such a deck has, I'll proceed to find such answers, & make the cuts from there (Finally...). Any thoughts? I wish I could make this an actual outside topic, but this unfortunately is where it'll happen...

March 21, 2019 10:34 a.m.

SynergyBuild says... #16

No deck autoloses based on colors. That was my analogy to the colorless deck.

There is not a deck Orzhov can't beat.

March 21, 2019 11:05 a.m.

BMHKain says... #17

@SynergyBuild: O_O IF: (Does the same stunned look) O...kay... That was a waste of a Q&A... Huh... Talk about nigh-unbeatable Color Identity. I mean, I'm running Teysa, Orzhov Scion (Formerly Teysa Karlov ), but dang, I didn't think those colors have all the options needed to win, regardless... (Still stunned.) (sigh...) Alright... I think it's time to cut down to the legal min/max at this point; I'm surprised Orzhov, of all things has all the tools needed to beat many kinds of opposition. But, yeah. Thanks. I'll see what I can do for cuts; but now, I'm revising several things outside of here... Later.

March 21, 2019 11:41 a.m.

SynergyBuild says... #18

What do you mean, a colorless 99 pile with no commander can beat the best lists in the format.

March 21, 2019 12:54 p.m.

BMHKain says... #19

@SynergyBuild: Wait. I think I might be getting where you're getting at, though I might be even more wrong than right than I was before. Is this about even chance? As in every deck has an even chance at beating others? This seems strange, as this doesn't always seem to be the case, but if otherwise, unless I'm wrong about this as well, I might need a simple explanation before I proceed to make some cuts; maybe it's not the colors, like I inadvertedly believe, but something else entirely. Though I must be wasting you're time on this, & I'm still trying to find a Mardu CMDR that can utilize Doomsday , but w/ only a Pile. Not necessarily a primary wincon, but enough to prove Boros does at least have something. But unless I'm wasting you're time, based on the 99 example, are you sure each deck has an even chance, or is there something else I'm also missing out on?

March 21, 2019 1:17 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #20

You weren't referring to even chance. I said chance at all.

March 21, 2019 1:22 p.m.

BMHKain says... #21

@SynergyBuild: Oh, man. Back to Square1. So, let me guess; from what you're saying previously is that Color Identity (Based on your Analogy of a deck.) is a pointless case? But what about Kess? Does this imply something else? I really don't know what. I guess we can get the Color Autolose Clause away from this topic based on what you meant, but I don't know what other clauses you're also trying to imply on the subject matter. Once I get my answers (Including Kess, & something else, if needed.), I'll proceed to doing some cuts, but do know I'm working on a Primer, & I'm planning to make a Mardu Deck where one wincon has Doomsday , but the entire package is all . Just to bite the naysayers right at the soul. I just have this to worry about though... Opinions on this, I'm only able to get one thing straight (Color ideas not being a restriction.)… Sorry if I am annoying you at this point. :/

March 22, 2019 8:59 a.m.

BMHKain says... #22

@SynergyBuild:

I BUMP BUMBLEBEE, BUMBLEBEE GETS KILLED BY ARMADA-ERA SIDEWAYS.

So, let me get what you mean: Locking Colors down can be avoided by the biggest victim of such? You did imply something about , but I just want the whole reason why you stated can't lose, but the same goes for . I'm really confused about the notion, & I'd like a good list of stuff as to what you mean from such implicit ideas I don't understand. What were you trying to say in the first place? Once I get a better idea for what you meant in its entirety, I'll proceed to make the cuts. Yes, I'm that naïve, & yes, I'm still confused even after all this... X/ I'd like an explanation on all this, please; I'm desperate... >.<

March 24, 2019 3:32 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #23

I don't know what you are asking for... at all?

March 25, 2019 11:16 a.m.

SynergyBuild says... #24

hkhssweiss, multimedia, Dango, other people that want to help, do any of you understand?

March 25, 2019 11:17 a.m.

BMHKain says... #25

@SynergyBuild: I'll try & mention some stuff as to what you were trying to say:

If the opponent has bad enough draws, a colorless commander with 99 Wastes and some random Eldrazi commander can get there. Or like if they cast Demonic Consultation in a lab-man list like Kess and end up accidentally exiling Lab man, killing themselves.

From the start, this is what I was confused by. While the Deck was resolved, I dunno what else you were trying to imply; only that the Mono- identity was meant as an analogy for Color Identity not being a problem for any deck autolosing from Color-Lock.

Anything else, I still dunno. I'd really not want a war on this; let's just be peaceful as we can still be...

…Even though I can't understand what you're saying; & likewise for you. I apologize for this. I wonder what your evaluation on this is still, & what your analogy on your other points are meant to be. As for backup, if you can't seem to understand a single thing I'm saying, maybe it's just my ideas on how I stylize the term "BUMP" all these times. But is it something else entirely? What are your analogies on the rest of your points? Once we get to a conclusion, I'll work on the deck again. For now, I've other things to do...

March 25, 2019 11:46 a.m.

Caerwyn says... #26

There's a lot of somewhat hard-to-follow gibberish here, so I'm going to go back to the initial post of follow-up questions, post twelve.

  • What do you think the hardest CMDR an Orzhov CMDR can take on?

It depends on the exact shape of your Orzhov deck. In general, artifact decks are going to be somewhat problematic, as Orzhov is lacking in anti-artifact effects. You probably will have some difficulties with faster combo decks, as Orzhov tends to be a bit more reactive, so it cannot proactively stop a combo using counterspells. But, again, the exact shape of the deck is going to determine what its weak spots are; not the colours.

  • But what if there is a CMDR that can beat the "DEBT" concept entirely?

I am not sure what this question is. Do you mean a hypothetical enemy commander that guards its board against all manner of removal? I suspect it would be over-costed and not see significant play as a result.

  • Then what is the most powerful CMDR Orzhov can still beat, but have a bigger chance of losing?

The word "then", as used when following the previously-addressed hypothetical, implies you are still in the realm of a hypothetical commander designed specifically to stop your particular Orzhov deck. That's a bit of a nonsensical question for a number of reasons. Most notably, since we are in the realm of possibility, we could design whatever commander fit the exact parameters, with no regard to sensible card design. The possibilities would be infinite.

I presume you missopke and meant to go back to discussing extant cards. In that case, provided you have provided a strong, playable deck, you always have a chance of winning. You might have matchups where you're unlikely to win, but that does not mean victory is entirely without possibility. Again, the answer to this question lies in the particular deck that is constructed, and what matchups it fares poorly in.


I know I've said this before, but you really, really need to slow down and reread your posts with an objective set of eyes (as if you did not know the intent behind them). I am sure what you're writing makes perfect sense to you, but the end result is often nonsensical to an outside observer.

March 25, 2019 12:28 p.m.

BMHKain says... #27

@cdkime: Oh. Well, maybe I am stating to get some things. Really unfortunate how I do a simple "BUMP" is really out of the idea of Normal's Reach. I think I might understand some things now. Must have been my Overly Mana behind all I said. Hmph. I dunno about rewriting after rereading, But I'll see what I can do about this. I guess we can settle the case as closed I suppose? I'm working on several projects already; one regarding Gate.dec (A Gate-Based Land Deck), another, having an alt wincon for an otherwise, average CMDR anyway. I'd like to mention some more, but I'll save those for later... Thanks for all the help; even with the idea of "Land of Confusion"-level, well, confusion. Later.

March 25, 2019 12:42 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #28

I think I give up?

I can't make sense of this.

March 25, 2019 1:50 p.m.

BMHKain says... #29

@SynergyBuild: Don't worry, man. I think I understand now. Now can someone please close this thread, & feed it to Nira, Hellkite Duelist (Why don't we have the Heroes of the Realm Promos?!)? Or Serra the Benevolent ? I'm still trying to work on a +1/+1 Counter Deck, A Lands.dec Deck utilizing Gates, & making a Primer for Superfriends, I'm still trying to find a Doomsday Pile that's Only, maybe even update my cEDH Boros to be better than before; though I dunno if it's possible even w/ Smothering Tithe , among others.

Just close this please... I want this matter deceased.

March 26, 2019 10:30 a.m.

SynergyBuild says... #30

No, keep it going.

It will never die

- SynergyBuild

March 26, 2019 12:42 p.m.

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