Moving the conversation from my list:

How you balance the mix of counterspells/protection spells/removal spells/board wipes is entirely dependent upon personal play style and overall deck construction (as well as your local meta).

Because you have built your deck, smartly, without any mana dorks or mana-accelerating creatures (aside from Jegantha) that need to stay on the battlefield, and b/c midrange aggro plays best within mid-power/battlecruiser pods, I was just suggesting that fighting non-creature spells on the stack might be less of a priority to your gameplan, whereas having regular access to 1-2x more 3-4 CMC board wipes could leave you with both tempo/card advantage more consistently. That number is likely closer to "1x" and you probably want to think about Fire Covenant?

Part of the reason I have a combo package and pivot between aggro and combo wins is exactly what you intuit correctly: This commander and the dragons present a threat that is often answered by the rest of the table swiftly. B/c I have relatively compact backup combos in my list, I have de-prioritized protecting my board over including more recursion packages and draw engines. But either way, if/when you build a large board state it will be difficult to protect it against 3x player who want to disrupt it or wipe it.

2-4x counters/protection spells is likely the sweet spot, at least based on my testing of this commander back from when I was running a pure creature/aggro strategy, but even more essential, like most other multiplayer decks, is having a relatively early/reliable card draw engine.

So more specifically, I might suggest that you retain Swan Song and Stubborn Denial but add in Heroic Intervention and Teferi's Protection? Both of the latter have the advantage of turning another person's board wipe into a one-sided wipe in your favor.

And use the last 2x slots this opens up to consider one more card advantage engine, even a bomb-ier draw spell like Rishkar's Expertise, and perhaps one larger recursion spell, like Primeavals' Glorious Rebirth?

Excellent points. I will try to get my hands on Fire covenant and consider adding it in when I do.

You are bang on with my non-mana dork strategy and the midrange-aggro construction. I always try to ask myslef whet my deck's biggest weakness is and in this case came up with hostile boardwipes, hence the high ratio of counterspell to specifically counter them.

Teferi's protection is already in there, Heroic Intervention is being added in for sure. Steely resolve is another consideration, more to protect against removal than wipes. At this point I'm trying to not go down below 25 dragons to keep the core theme online.

Unfortunatly, Rishkar's expertise can't be played with Jeganth. Return of the Wildspeaker might be a suitable alternative.

I hesitate to include Primevals' Glorious Rebirth due to it's high CMC, but I got a copy in case I feel the need to add it after I have some playtesting time under my belt.

What are your thoughts on Earthquake and Subterranean Tremors as asymetrical board wipes? Depending on the boardstate they can be mana intensive but the resulting tempo gain if successful could be immense.

So I'll likely remove 1-2 counters, 1+ dragons and 1 removal spell based on our discussion. I'll post here when the changes are done for your review.

sorry NeonEndymion, one last question. What is your experience with Fist of Suns and/or Jodah, Archmage Eternal? There is a cute little combo with Morophon, the Boundless that makes all dragons cost 0. But I have to assume that combo won't reliably be online and assess the worth of Fist and Jodah in isolation. Are they worth the card slot to make Ur-Dragon easier to cast and/or recast if removed? (Jegantha already makes Ur-Dragon much easier to cast) ...I think I'm answering my own question here and they should be left out...

Ah, I missed Teferi's Protection already being in there, somehow. Sorry!

But yes, for your build I think the sweet spot is likely 25 to 29 dragons in the main list.

Steely Resolve has been great for me, as have haste enablers (esp when they have card draw or buffs stapled on, too). I wonder if your build wouldn't want to consider something like Sneak Attack, especially if you splash 1-2 recursion spells?

Double apologies for not remembering that Rishkar's Expertise has GG in the mana cost. Return of the Wildspeaker does a great impression of the effect, at instant speed, and allows for a flexible Overrun style effect, too...so arguably even better than Rishkar's?

If your average CMC boops up too far above the 3.5-3.8 range, then maybe cut Primevals' Glorious Rebirth even from the maybe list, but my only thinking here is that if your gameplan is to ramp hard, wipe early, establish and protect a board, etc, you may want to consider adding 1-2 splashier spells with big, immediate impact and at slightly higher, 5-7 CMC. Expropriate or Omniscience are off the table due to companion restrictions, obviously.

But as you say, pacing from playtesting will help determine sequencing and CMC adjustments.

As to Earthquake and Subterranean Tremors as asymmetrical board wipes, I like that they are flexible in terms of sequencing, but maybe one could be cut in favor of the mana efficiency of Fire Covenant? If walkers are an issue in your meta and you value instant speed, I quite like Magmaquake as another option to test in that lane.

Very happy to continue to provide some feedback as you playtest/get in some games (hopefully safely!)...I've been on the Ur-Dragon for my mid-power/battlecruiser deck since it released in 2017 so have built/played around with many different strategies and builds with it, but also across many different metas. Not an expert by any stretch but I do have an overloaded "maybe board" binder of like 350 odd cards that were tested/cycled in and out, including some less obvious, older tech.

As to your follow-up question, I did experiment with running Fist of Suns/Jodah, as well as Morophon, and all were eventually cut.

On their own, Fist and Jodah usually eat removal and you don't want to waste counters or protection spells to save them. I'd rather have "hard" ramp than conditional ramp/pieces that draw hate and are a bit slow in terms of when they can be used for optimal effect. I'm likewise not generally interested in 3-card+ synergies (vs true combos) that don't win the game and are slightly dead on their own/otherwise, but that's just where my build and meta have pushed me.

Morophon is likely one of the better ways to help make sure you can get the Ur-Dragon out, esp if it was already removed and you're dealing with commander tax . . . but my list has so much fast or big mana production in the mix that it was a win-more card for me and got cut after a few games. Might be worth testing here, though, perhaps even over Jodah or Fist? As it also does get a 1CMC discount from Ur-Dragon and buffs other Dragons (so there are more upsides)?

That's exactly what I was thinking.. Morophon has alot of dragon synergy including triggering the Ur-Dragon when attacking. Thanks a bunch again, you have been a great sounding board to solidify some of my ideas.

Anytime! Always a pleasure to talk Dragons. And good luck/have fun!

Lastly, there are two other lists I refer to pretty frequently you might want to check out:

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bow-before-draconic-king-war-update/

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-dragons-multiverse-onslaught-primer/?cat=&sort=cost

NeonEndymion Just getting around to look at your comments in more details now.. I remember looking at Magmaquake earlier and it would be great if it wasn't for that double red mana and Jegantha... lol

Considered your advice and made the following changes: Feels like it made an overall improvement to the deck, I will add Dragonlord Silumgar and Fire Covenant when/if I manage to get my hands on them. Thanks again for the help.

In: Heroic Intervention - Out: Arcane Denial

In: Steely Resolve - Out: Path to Exile

In: Morophon, the Boundless - Out: Chromium, the Mutable

In: Ramos, Dragon Engine - Out: Hypersonic Dragon

In: Steel Hellkite - Out: Spellbound Dragon

In: Rhythm of the Wild - Out: Negate

Probably another reason why I won't ever build a companion deck: I'd muck up the restrictions at least 1-3x over. LOL.

I'm usually not into the new Niv and Ramos but I think they could be quite good here.

Keep me posted on how this plays in goldfishing and testing?

I'm actually enjoying the challenge of the companion restriction!

Will keep you posted for sure, goldfishing has been going great! I'm very happy with the ramp package along with Jegantha, the deck is never missing a required color.

Playtesting with friends over virtual EDH will begin once all the cards arrive via mail. Who knowns when that will happen...

Niv Reborn is on the short list to be cut, along with Keiga and Ryusei. What has been your experience with them and also Intet, the dreamer ?

Yeah, having another look at the overall build makes me think the hit rate on Niv Reborn may not be worth it. The upside to Ramos is so sweet, though, and it's just a fun, splashy card to play with.

For Keiga and Ryusei, I'd rather be in a more dedicated aristocrats/sacrifice theme, otherwise they're slow/low impact/narrow. For Intet, I'd rather be in a "cheat big things via topdeck manipulation" theme. I ran and ended up cutting Nu-Vaevictis for awhile before cutting it for similar reasons, as you can really hose yourself without a decent topdeck manipulation package.

Over time I have really tried to focus more on ETB and on-attack triggers, in that order, vs death or deals combat damage or conditional+mana requirements, as the latter can be hard to pull off consistently. Prioritizing haste enablers also helps with prioritizing on-attack triggers.

And in the course of sticking my foot in my mouth w/r/t your companion restrictions at least a few times over, I thought of a few suggestions that do meet the restrictions and that your companion could help you ramp out more reliably:

Dragons: Numot, the Devastator, Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund

Walkers: Sarkhan Unbroken, Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh, Sarkhan the Mad

Payoff/enablers: Dragonstorm, Maelstrom Wanderer, Xenagos, God of Revels (fights with the CMC of companion, though), Surrak Dragonclaw (if meta is control heavy)

Here are my thoughts on your suggestions:

Numot, the Devastator As you said in your previous message, his trigger is conditional+mana. Are you suggesting that in this case the effect is worth it? For some poor soul, two blown up lands can be devastating.

Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund is not in my deck since my meta is Control Magic heavy. One player runs a Merieke Ri Berit deck and another runs Braids, Conjurer Adept. Braids will be awesome for me to drop dragons for free but he has alot of clone effects in his deck, making Karrthus a big liability.

Sarkhan Unbroken was in my initial draft but I ended up cutting him.. a mistake on my part? Are you usually happy to draw him vs a dragon or a more interactive card?

Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh is an awesome card.. already on my short list to add if I can find room for it.

I blew by Sarkhan the Mad during my research, not being overly impressed by his first two abilities. I usually don't put too much value on the ultimate since they are rarely attained... however this madman can ult on turn 1, which I missed. I suppose it can be a kill blow with a large board presence, is that why you are recommending him? It's kind of a win-more card isn't it? Worth the slot?

Jegantha's mana can only be used to pay for colored mana, therefore only reducing Dragonstorm down to 8 CMC, however I can see that even with a storm count of 1 or 2 this can be a powerhouse finisher. What's your experience with it?

I see Maelstrom Wanderer often in various decklists.. I fail to see the appeal. He's not a dragon, and there are already many haste enablers in the deck for much cheaper, so it must be the cascade, cascade. I'm not a fan of the variability here, with my luck it will hit a couple of 2-3 CMC ramp/removal.

I have been on the receiving end of Xenagos, God of Revels enough to know that it would be a true powerhouse in this deck. Added to shortlist.

My meta is not control heavy, pass on Surrak Dragonclaw for now.

Summary:

Yes: Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh, Xenagos, God of Revels

Maybe?: Numot, the Devastator, Sarkhan Unbroken, Sarkhan the Mad, Dragonstorm

No: Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund, Maelstrom Wanderer, Surrak Dragonclaw

I am forever grateful for all the help you have provided so far! Having said that... what I am most likely in need of next is more discussion on what cards I could cut.

Glad it's been a help vs annoyance! When starting a new deck the decision paralysis and cuts/swaps can be a real pain as much as it's also fun. I suppose I'm a little antsy to help w/ some refining/tweaking, as my current main lists are all at a place where I'm happy with them (or can't safely acquire new cards and accessories to brew/build with at the moment).

In any case, given your meta, I think the one clear "maybe" add is Xenagos, God of Revels.

The rest all have clear downsides for narrow upsides. Without dorks, walkers can be more of a liability as people will attack them down cleanly and quickly. Sarkhan the Mad is the one card that Vlasiax does not cut from his respective list, but that's mainly b/c he has a lot of board stall/Ghostly Prison decks in his meta and sometimes needs to push through a heap of direct damage.

In terms of cuts, I'm with you in finding Keiga, Ryusei, and Niv Mizzet Reborn underwhelming here.

As previously discussed Earthquake could eventually become Fire Covenant or Toxic Deluge.

Maybe Despark becomes Assassin's Trophy?

I'd also suggest having a hard look during testing at heavy generic mana cards that the companion can't help ramp into at all, esp whether Ramos works with how you sequence your plays, if Steel Hellkite can connect with open mana often enough, and whether Golos has any good land targets/hits reliably enough off the top. Kind of cool that you can use the companion to help activate him, though.

Lastly, I've been underwhelmed with Ojutai, Soul of Winter, as for me at least it had minimal impact whether playing from behind, ahead, or at parity. When ahead, it often was just a win more card for me.

If you cut a small handful of some of those higher CMC dragons, I think you could sneak in a few extra enablers/draw effects to help smooth things out in terms of overall consistency?

Few other items to consider when evaluating cards:

1. The more colored mana required the better.. Jegantha can help cast it, and it synergizes with Ramos and Morophon (secondary to the Jegantha synergy). This is one + for Niv Reborn.

2. During Goldfishing I have been finding that there is a higher density of BRG than WU costed dragons. If I can even the colors a bit more it would smooth out the Jegantha mana efficiency. This is one + for keeping Ojutai.

3. 5 CMC dragons are useful, as they can be cast at a discount the turn before Jegantha comes. All 6 CMC dragons (and Niv and Scion) directly compete with Jegantha.

I own a Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and am debating swapping him in instead of Earthquake until I can get my hands on Fire Covenant. He's on theme and would be a very effective wipe given all my dragons are 5+ CMC. It's just too bad he costs so much and is colorless so no help from Jegantha there. Also to consider is making room for Urza's Ruinous Blast or Primevals' Glorious Rebirth.

Oh and Toxic deluge is already in.. such a good card!

Oh god I did it again; of course you have in Toxic Deluge already. I swear I can read, just a little distracted atm (as I imagine many of us are!).

And yes, I can see now that in your build there are upsides to Ojutai, esp if you're spitting out multiple dragons per turn, potentially hasty, with your companion.

I've never run Ugin outside of Atraxa Superfriends (I know and I am sorry) or Teferi, Temporal Archmage, so would be curious to hear how that works for you if you go that route.

NeonEndymion

In: Dragonlord Silumgar - Out: Keiga, the Tide Star Clear upgrade.

In: Primevals' Glorious Rebirth - Out: Spell Rupture Cut a counterspell in favour of Primeval to recover from a board wipe instead of trying to prevent one.

In: Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - Out: Despark Moving the deck balance more towards asymetrical boardwipes instead of single target removals. Ugin and Primeval moved the average CMC to 4.0 which is quite high. I'll decide after some playtesting if Ugin should stay or not, maybe in favour of ramp like Skyshroud Claim

In: Return of the Wildspeaker - Out: Swords to Plowshares I can see Return of the Wildspeaker doing alot of work in this deck, 10 cards for 5 mana or a combat trick to close the game.

In: Urza's Ruinous Blast - Out: Ryusei, the Falling Star More reliable board wipe since I control when it happens and not my opponents.

In: Numot, the Devastator - Out: Steel Hellkite Improvement in color density to help synergize with Jegantha, Ramos and Morophon, white and blue needed the most help.

I left Niv-Mizzet Reborn in the deck for now, in goldfishing he usually draws me 1-3 cards which is not bad for a 5 colored mana dragon that can be cast with a simple Jegantha tap.

Down to 25 dragons, which is the lowest I want to go. I'd like to make room for Skyshroud Claim due to the higher average CMC and also still planning on adding Fire Covenant whenever I get my hands on it.

Maybe Chainer, Nightmare Adept/Domri, Chaos Bringer for more haste

Unsettled Mariner? cheap dragon for Ur-triggers and some resilience for your bigger stuff

Dragonspeaker Shaman and/or Urza's Incubator for that high average cmc

Mudslide is a funny hipster card, esp. vs elves

oops, the Dragonspeaker is obviously a no-no

Thanks for the suggestions Coward_Token!

Chainer is a cool suggestion, worth considering him for the recursion. I don't think the haste part of his text will be very useful since it will only affect dragons that Chainer himself gets back from the graveyard.

I passed on unsettled Mariner during my card research since he will be easily blocked and killed when used to trigger Ur (small body and no evasion).

Urza's Incubator was a hard one to make a decision on. Obviously it would fit well in the deck, but at the end of the day I decided to focus on green land ramp that is not easily removed and can be used to cast more than dragons. It might go into the deck after I get a chance to do some playtesting.

Mudslide would be alot of fun, have you used it in a game before?

Do you run an Ur-Dragon deck, how has been your overall experience with the deck.. what are its strengths and weaknesses?

Chainer does work with casting your commander & companion (and cards cheated out with Golos, Tireless Pilgrim/Ugin, the Spirit Dragon's ultimate, or reanimated with something other than Chainer), but yeah, a little narrow. Depends on if you think re-casting valuable dragons without cheating them is worth it. (I guess you could use it to recast Sakura-Tribe Elder as well.)

Your reasoning with the Incubator is fine, although in that case you might want to take it further by cutting the rocks you have in favor of either more land fetchers like the Skyshroud Claim you mentioned before, or auras like Overgrowth. I do like cost reducers and big colorless mana with Jegantha though, since it got the colored symbols covered.

I just realized Mudslide is bad here since it'll also affect Jegantha. Never mind, it's just that it's fun for its Ice Age color pie wildness in decks that focus on flying creatures.

Don't run an Ur-deck myself. I can just say the obvious here, that since you got a companion with a tap ability and a commander with an attack trigger you definitely want haste sources, especially since both of them are high-cmc with no built-in resilience and are therefor prone to being hit by removal before you can make use of them. But you've probably already come to that conclusion. Hell, Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund might have a home here. (Some funny synergy with the symmetrical nature of Urza's Incubator I might add.)

Good point on Chainer and the command/companion zones... missed that.

You are spot on for the importance of haste in this deck..and I made an effort to add several... however I have been finding that I rarely have use for a hasted Jegantha on the turn I cast him since I'm tapped out and can't pay generic mana with him... which makes me reconsider the value of Urza's Incubator since combined with The Ur-Dragon it would remove the generic mana requirement of most if not all dragons..

I know I still have a few rocks left in the deck, but I find it hard to justify cutting Sol ring, Arcane Signet or Chromatic Lantern for more land ramp. Do you have any recommendations on what I could cut to make room for something?

Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund is a no-go in my deck since my meta currently runs alot of clone and/or copy effect and that would ruin my day.

Mana Crypt =)

Budgetless jokes aside, Fertile Ground works instead of arcane signet. I thought you had more rocks but whatever. No getting away from the other two.

I'd also prefer Carpet of Flowers and/or Wild Growth instead of one of the tapped land fetchers. Heartless Summoning is a spicy cost reducing alternative. (Once in a blue moon you could assemble Summoning + Incubator + haste source so you can cast Jegantha followed by the Ur-Dragon.)

Sorry I missed that Fellwar Stone is also in here.

Assuming no land hate being the only common house rule, why do you suggest Fertile Ground over Arcane Signet? Is it simply because artifact removal is more common than enchantment removal? Arcane signet has the advantage of always being able to tap for mana the turn it enters and not require green.

Wild Growth and Overgrowth are great but they don't provide any color fixing, which I feel like is needed even with Jegantha as a companion.

Did not know about Heartless Summoning, very interesting card! I love how it would also help cast Jegantha and not just dragons, thanks for sharing it. However, it would make Sakura tribe elder and wood elves dead draws.

Thanks for all the time spent helping me sofar, much appreciated.