"Not sure why you think that nobody is EVER at <3 life"

Read my original comment. You somehow managed to cut out half of what I said on that particular point. I said 'The only possible time the drain could be relevant is if someone has Solitary Confinement or a similar effect in play and <3 life (rsituationer).' Meaning you're in a position where an opponent has 2 or fewer life and a permanent in play that prevents combat damage. Again, that situation almost never happens.

"Your opponents can't combo out. And when you drain people THAT many times, it matters. Double it with Sanguine Bond, throw in Whip of Erebos and a few angel tokens. You win."

If you're winning off a vanilla 5/5 with Drain-Gain and 'a few angel tokens', you're probably not playing EDH. Sounds more like 99 land pickup.

"saying Orzhov is a "bad color identity" is just wrong. Where did that come from?"

Orzhov is either the second or third worst color pairing in the game, being behind Boros and possibly Rakdos. It both lacks a good commander and any strong strategy (Fast combo doesn't work because it's too light on dig spells and ramp. Stax doesn't work be cause it doesn't have access to any commander that effectively breaks parity, not to mention no access to green or blue. Control doesn't work because control never works outside of Azami/Edric/Damia/Zur. It requires the ability to generate a large amount of card advantage every turn to consistently keep answers in hand.) Does that answer your question?

So do we think the new delver will see an uptick in Azami? On paper 5 mana for "whenever you cast an instant or sorcery draw a card" combined with a wizards anthem seems really strong

Time for another post, this time on Obzedat.

Like the discussion on 5c and Esper commanders, the same point can be applied here. "What does this general do for my deck?" This is very important. If you look at the tier 1, 2, and even 3 generals, they do something unique that no other general could do. (Jeleva is maybe an exception, but she's way ahead of all the other Grixis generals in terms of utility, making her relevant.)

The point of a stax general is usually to break resource parity. Take a look at the tier 1 stax generals: Brago, Derevi, Teferi. What do they have in common? They all break resource parity through untapping permanents. (They're also all blue! Coincidence?) In tier 2, Grand Arbiter cheapens your spells while acting as a backup Sphere. This is almost always required for a stax general.

However, there are a few exceptions. Some generals have extremely powerful abilities, whether they lock down the board well, tutor, or generate massive card advantage. For example, Gaddock Teeg's ability is ridiculous. It completely shuts out some decks. Daretti refines your hand, retrieves stax pieces, and has a nigh game-breaking ultimate.

What does Obzedat do? Does he break resource parity? Does he have extremely powerful abilities? Surprise! He doesn't. Like NarejED has said, his abilities are really, really, REALLY irrelevant in a competitive EDH game.

Obzedat's limitation is this: HE DOES NOTHING. Break everything down, and, he's just a beatstick with removal resistance. That's not something that we want higher than tier 5.

I might write more later. Also, most people don't take kindly to being called "freaks."

antagon1st there is no point in arguing with them. This is a tier list, but it's not a tier list based around innovation. I like everything these guys are doing. They are trying to show edh through a competitive stand point. Anything outside of that they don't seem to acknowledge.

I think your deck idea is a cool one. I also agree that calling that list tier 5 is not correct. But these guys don't care. You literally gave a reason as to what that card offers to the table. Yet they are saying no because there is a better commander for that type of deck. They are literally contradicting themselves. But hey, I try not to comment on here anymore. Just felt like defending you.

For a lot of decks, the general is a back up plan. You can have a great 99, but if the general does not offer much by way of assisting as a main piece or a good back-up plan, then isn't the general just a placeholder for the colors? What would happen if Selenia, Dark Angel was out at the helm? Would the deck change all that much? Not really. The difference is, she's pretty much useless as backup. I do agree that Obzedat should probably be T4, simply because he is a non-voltron back up plan, unlike Selenia. That being said, if we are looking at his ability, 2 life drain and gain from one opponent is not very impactful. In the long term, he can close out games, sure. If you have everyone locked out, he's a fine clock, albeit S L O W. That being said, I think he can be moved to T4, since he isn't just a vanilla, and his ability can, in the right circumstances (which the deck should be able to achieve more than once in a blue moon) finish the game.

How would Gisa and Geralf rank? I really want to make a commander deck around him/her...

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/gisa-and-geralf/

Looking at it, honestly I think you'd get more value from an Obzedat, Ghost Council using some sort of reanimator loop like Nim Deathmantle or abusing Eldrazi Displacer than you would building him as a prison style deck.

W/B is too slow and too mana intensive for that kind of strategy and it doesn't do enough to shut other decks down.

@Wee_Dragonaut Hard to say, but they're probably about on the same level as Grimgrin, Corpse-Born. The mill ability isn't super relevant, it makes top of library tutors better but that's about it. Casting Zombies from the graveyard is strong, but I can't think of anything terribly broken to do with it, other than maybe casting Sidisi, Undead Vizier every turn to permanently have a 5 mana tutor. That may be enough to push it above Tier 3, but for now I'm not sure it is. Anyone else know a way to really heavily abuse their abilities?

I feel like geralf and gisa make a better addition to the U/B zombie combo deck as part of the 99 allowing you to cast stuff from the grave to enable the combo.

As a commander I can't imagine that they would be any better than gringrin so tier 4 MAYBE tier 3.

I suspect G&G will fall somewhere in Tier 3. The mill ability is nice, but not terribly relevant, and the recursion ability has rather limited targets. There aren't a ton of extremely broken zombie targets for them to hit. The only ones that come to mind at the moment are Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (yay combos...). Ultimately G&G is a weaker Karador in a weaker color identity. Unless ELM brings us a viable zombie-based win condition, they won't be powerful.

So I asked before and no one seemed interested in talking about it. Does anyone think that Azami will get any better with the new Delver? Turning every instant/sorcery into a cantrip is pretty awesome.

Ohthenoises: between it and possibly the new Nibilis of Frost she seems like she could get some strong cards. I'm pretty sure these will just become staple auto-includes for decks like her and Talrand.

Nibilis of Frost isn't a wizard, how would it be good in Azami? You're right about it being an auto-include in Talrand though.

Gates88: It provides solid creature control in mono-blue. Between it and Back to Basics you could provide some serious pain.

New Delver is alright. It might be playable in Azami, but its high CMC and lack of immediate impact will prevent it from being a powerhouse, let alone a card capable of changing Azami's power level.

Gisa and Gerald is super neat, basically turns Vampiric Tutor/Imperial Seal into Entomb. As noted, looping Sidisi is cool. My gut says tier 3 to start.

@Aggro-Blaster You're not exactly being fair. There's been plenty of generals more on the casual/innovative side that have been moved up due to discussion and multiple requests. But we're not going to move up a commander without good reason, and in this situation Obzedat isn't good enough to be tier 3 material. I already mentioned I could possibly see it as tier 4, but there has to be more support than one person who is clearly pimping their own general, which is against the rules.

yavimaya_eldred I am in no way attacking this list. There is a reason I am even reading the comments. With new commanders come new possibilities and you guys typical will mention it in the comments. I will agree it is not easy making a list like this and it will have its flaws. The whole argument about commander colors and combo cards running a deck verus the actual commander is just an example. All I was saying is that the people who typically cast votes are frequent users so they in a way control the list. He did not have any of those regulars supporting him. I am in no way saying Obzedat should be moved up or stay in the same spot. I was simply encouraging a different outtake on a deck. And sure he is alone in this recent argument about Obzdats position, but I am almost certain he has been brought up before simply to be brushed aside.But again, I just want to be clear, I dont discredit any of you for your comments. Edh is considered more causal and you guys look at it in a more competitive way. And you guys definitely know strong decks. But for the lower tiers, things like 2 life gain and drain seems a lot weaker. I was simply offering support to a differing opinion.

"Edh is considered more causal and you guys look at it in a more competitive way"

Unfortunately the idea that EDH is a casual format can cause a big divide between the player base and can cause people to get butt hurt about opinions (not saying that you specifically are calling it casual, but the refering to the concept in general).

There is always a lot to analyzing a deck and a commander, whether it be it develoop a tier list or to improve some of the cards in the deck, or for any other reason. Unfortunately playgroup (and in general power level) bias can very easily skew results. For example, I have seen many decks that are decent, but not great. They however happen to be the "big fish" deck in their playgroup and as such a player can have an overinflated idea about their deck or their commander. And I'm sure we've all seen the comments like "in my playgroup the deck almost always wins" or somethign to that accord. This unfortunately doesn't tell us about the playgroup's decks and the level at which they play.

Quick story - I remember playing in an EDH league a few years ago. It was a 1v1 week and i was running my Damia deck (it wasn't as good then but still decent) and I was matched up against a Vorel of the Hull Clade deck. There was not a single momentin that entire game where I did not feel in control of what was going on. I had a hand full of answers and counterspells and had a bunch of mana on the field from ramping hard. Hell, I even got some commander damage in with Damia herself. I remember that in the later stages of the game, my opponent said something along the lines of "I don't know whats going on, my deck is normally faster than this". If I had to bet though, his deck probably didn't run much slower than it normally did. Mine was just faster again.

So bringing this back in, how does this realte to my earlier point? Typically "competitive" decks (and players) are designed to win. There is much less room for error and if a card under-performs, it typically gets replaced. Or if a commander under-performs, it will very often be switched with a stronger commander. But at this level, good is good and bad is bad.

Unfortunately however, at mid tier decks (not commanders, but decks themselves) there is a bit of an interesting efffect that goes on. These decks I have found to usually be around the $600 +- 100 mark. I know that cost is not a good way to judge a deck, but it provides a good entry point. Here, especially if people don't play in tournaments and if people have a deck that is even 10% better than the rest of their playgroup's decks, some people can have a habit of developing a bit of an inflated ego for themselves/their deck/their commander. And no matter what anyone says, their deck can crush a Zur deck or a Sharrum deck because they play against one and beat it no problem with their Zurgo Helmsmasher deck. And again, I'm not saying that everyone is like this.

The other thing is that people can get butt hurt about others saying a Commadner is or ins't good becuase "Hey, I worked really hard to build a good [insert commander here] deck and you can't tell me it's bad". Again, typically this comes from that kind of mid tier play where there is a lot more variance and therefore more skew in the results.

EDH is a social format, not a casual format.

I definitely agree that most visitiors to this deck have a tough time viewing commander in competive terms. Back when I went to commander night at my LGS, my decks were miles away from competitive, but I had a bad reputation in my playgroup for making degenerate decks. Since the vast majority of commander players don't have any idea what a competitive deck looks like it is hard for anyone to see why some of the tier 1 or 2 decklists are better than their bounceland homebrews.

I do agree with Aggro-Blaster that innovation gets shot down too quickly at times, but that is a natural consequence of being in a group with a shared set of beliefs. Assumptions are often treated as facts and those "facts" can be hard to let go.

On another note, while I understand why there is a prohibition of promoting your own commander, the issue is not clear cut. Bias can certainly make a commander seem to the user better than they objectively are. However, only promoting commanders we have seen or played against can be equally biased. For instance if you always play against a crappy Animar or zur deck you are likely to see the commander as less capable than it is and thus you will be resistant to new information. The best conversations we have had lately are because people have argued from their own experience piloting a commander. Sadly some of the worst discussions have also come from that place. To ban commander promotion outright will only lead to stagnation, but it is also tedius to hear arguments for placing tier 4 or 5 commanders in tier 2 or 3 because their deck "always wins" against tier 1 generals

To be fair, you can have a tier one deck that consistently loses in a tier 3 meta due to the arch enemy status. Most of the game will be 3 v 1 until someone else becomes a bigger threat. With a tier one deck, players kind of know what to expect. They know where to slow them down. Someone is playing a HD 5-color deck, okay I'm going for Blood Moon. Someone has Karador, Ghost Chieftain, be ready with graveyard hate and instant speed exile or instant speed artifact/enchantment removal. It suddenly becomes a game where when a bomb hits the table it won't stay. I maybe over simplifying it, but hopefully my point is clear

I don't know about you guys but if someone is playing a commander that is considered to be in a weaker tier, I am more relaxed about their turns. I may not know the importance of some of their cards until it is to late. Weak tier generals may run a strong deck but the commander may even act as a decoy.

And to be fair, all of magic is a social format. You are playing with other people. Edh, to most is considered casual.

Also Lilbrudder is right. Prohibiting comments on commanders you run will lead to stagnation. It should be allowed. If anything, no one knows a deck better expect the pilot.

Somewhat off-topic, but it looks like we have our first truly playable card out of ELM. I'm of course talking about Eldritch Evolution.

It has a place in just about every deck that already runs Birthing Pod plus a few miscellaneous others. It will likely find a permanent home in Animar, Derevi, and especially Meren/Karador, among many, many others.

Thoughts?

I would add this card in a heartbeat to any graveyard matters deck. It makes creature based infinite combos so much easier to assemble. Being able to skip up two cc or down gives alot of flexibility. Too bad it has an exile clause.

I'm going to be adding this to Yisan and Sidisi, both of which love this.

Sacrifice Greenwarden of Murasa and go get Craterhoof and use the Greenwarden's dies trigger to get something else like E-Witness back? Yes please.

A put into play tutor that works for Gaddock Teeg