Google Ghave (Lands Matter Route)

Commander / EDH hkhssweiss

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Hmm try this link, goldlion said the other one wasn't working, so this one should now

Abzkaban

I do like Chromatic Lantern a lot, it's great for all sorts of builds and it does mana fix you as well as ramp. The only thing I see with this build is that it is pretty reliant on the 3 cmc drops. I tried tuning the Lands Version in keeping the spirit of what Goldlion wants to do, and it's still a tad heavy in the 3 cmc slot.

SynergyBuild

Karador is also a stellar choice for this type of build. What I like most though about Ghave in this choice in particular is:

• Ghave is 5 cmc so he can Birthing Pod straight into any of the Ob Nixies.
• There is a sac outlet in your command zone that can trigger Pattern of Rebirth.
• He also provides card advantage in conjunction with Skullclamp or any effect similar to Fecundity.

What Karador does provide though:

• Recursion of creatures
• Possible to cast earlier for WBG

goldlion

I also agree for the ramp package you can use a lot more dorks. The dorks have more utility for us to Diabolic Intent, Natural Order, Eldritch Evolution, etc.

Cheap spells to ramp are also great like Nature's Lore, Farseek, Rampant Growth, Three Visits. What I don't like about them in though is that you won't be able to really abuse them since we don't really use much spell recursion unless you go into something like Seasons Past

Karador also provides card advantage with skullclamp/fecundity and can be podded into a 9 cmc target turn 4 with no ramp.

True enough, but the options for 9 cmc off the top of my head is Iona, Shield of Emeria, Blazing Archon, Void Winnower, Bringer of the Black Dawn, and Artisan of Kozilek.

Karador in my opinion would be better in a stax type build, as it would be more heavier on the creature reliant side. Yeah you can pod turn 4 from Karador to 9cmc, but the goal of this deck is to abuse the Ob Nixxy as the hidden commander, which is why Ghave is optimal for the pod chain, 5 cmc -> 6 cmc and it gives you the option for having either or Ob Nix's.

If we are going for a reanimator route, than hands down Karador is the optimal version as you can abuse Karador's ability as you will gain tremendous value, provided along with a lot of graveyard shenanigans. However for the goal of this deck is not reanimator or value train, the spirit of the deck is to do forced searches :P

I was going for the Stax-Hatebears route with the finisher as Ob Nixi with either Fertilid or Avatar of Growth+Sac outlet and Karador, 10'ing all of your opponents each turn or 20'ing one opponent each turn.

Yeah that's a good way to use for Karador. I was trying to keep in mind for the playgroup that goldlion in mind, as when I help brainstorm for deck ideas my number one goal is always see what is their ideal version that they want to build for while offering my perspective to help them form their ideal deck.

Seeing as we're both competitive players, I tried not to go too far off tangent and include cards that are easily $100+ or as degenerate as possible, because I think what I think Goldlion wants is to make a deck that surprises their playgroup as well as being fun but optimized :D

Yeah, but hatebears Karador can be really budget, a lot of the good ones are either cheap or have cheap alternatives.

Aven Mindcensor, Mother of Runes, Vryn Wingmare, Manglehorn, Tocatli Honor Guard, Hushwing Gryff, Glowrider, Lodestone Golem, Loxodon Gatekeeper, Phyrexian Revoker, etc. are all cheap and effective.

Mindblade Render, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Llanowar Elves, Elvish Mystic, Boreal Druid, Elves of Deep Shadow, Plaguecrafter, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Fyndhorn Elves, etc. are all of the great support cards for a budget.

Really good points, both SynergyBuild and hkhssweiss.

It's true that my playgroup is slower - not all quite battle-cruiser, but some are - and there's been a stray away from more control styles that "stop other people from playing" as they say. What I'm excited about here is the idea of building something pretty creative that'll still perform while still providing diversity over multiple 9-15 turn games. But that's not all I'm excited about with this.

Besides building a deck to fit that style, I love the idea of — as this is happening and after - putting the "Search Engine of Doom" concept into a few other build ideas. Meren of Clan Nel Toth seems like a fantastic speed game, while Muldrotha, the Gravetide(I think?) would open more of a control type environment. Then Karador seems super good on the STAX side of things, as you're saying SynergyBuild. While Ghave, Guru of Spores seems to fit my play group as it takes a little more durdling to pull of and ends up being a little more "creative" than it is powerful (plus I have most of the cards for it already), I definitely hope the exploration doesn't stop there. Especially because, beyond my playgroups current metta (it'll evolve), I DO want to explore more control and STAX. I've got a Grand Warlord Radha STAX brewing and have a lot to learn, so I love that idea.

I think we're developing an interesting Jank side strategy other folks will be able to employ and it'd be neat to end up publishing a handful of takes on it (like your Meren build, SynergyBuild) in the end, all of which could be linked to each other through the descriptions. I could use this deck-page to explain the story and over all idea and interactions we know of, then people could look at versions that agree with their play style the most. The basics of these other decks could come together pretty fast, I'm sure, and be there for other people to add to and help evolve.

I admit I'm attracted to the mind bending nature of deck building and the stimulation of trying something different and new so am not immediately on board with just plugging into all the pre-made packages that already exist (to a degree). That's probably why I went this way. While I recognize accepting those are needed to be competitive (they are used and re-used again and again for a reason, they are the most efficient and functional ways of doing specific things), I'd like to find the middle ground here. I'm also excited to learn more as someone fairly new to the complexities of deck building.

I'm also attracted to working out Google Ghave (for now) because graveyard hate can be a really thing in my metta. But I do definitely recognize that everything he does can be done by other cards and the other commanders we've been talking about are better options in so many ways. Ultimately, I like the concept of exploring what is actually possible with him, then moving on to the next, rather than jump on the most optimized version possible right away. The process is the reward for me. Having all of your insights with this has been a fantastic learning experience for me already and I can't wait to explore the alternative versions.

Mana-dorks, yes! The one worry about them is when they get removed (or sacrificed), they are no longer mana ramp. I definitely see that speeding the path to Ghave is key and other cards is key, and then utilizing what abilities he does have to propel the deck forward. What about Cryptolith Rite type cards, especially in conjunction with the landfall token creation (I think it would need another landfall token creator though)? or Pitiless Plunderer?

Card draw will be key. What's the best card draw for value (both CMC and $) here? Some ideas, and going off of some of your thoughts.

• Greed
• Fecundity (I've never used it but always imagine the disadvantage from other people abusing it)
• Dark Prophecy (dangerous with Ghave and a bunch of tokens - if only I had a way to sac it)
• Sylvan Library (getting up there in price, but I wont rule it out!)
• Necropotence
• Phyrexian Arena

Abzkaban - Chromatic Lantern is pretty strong for fixing and, as you said, a bit o' ramp as well. I'd put it in the sideboard just in case there's challenges with the fixing. Part of mefeels it's best in 4-5 colour decks, and signets would be better? 2 cost. You don't get the complete fixing, but... I guess it all depends on what else is taking up the 3cmc slot?

Bloom Tender is incredible. Never seen her before... definitely see why she's nearly a $40 card, haha. Wow.

Going to pull from the list of dorks you guys shared and try a rebuild.

goldlion, First off I would like to thank you for being the first one to bring up an interesting idea. Without you all this evolution wouldn't have come to fruition, everyone has great ideas and perspectives, especially Abzkaban and SynergyBuild. Both you guys are awesome and thank you both for coming along and joining in the brainstorming and theorycrafting!

For card draw, will automatically the auto include will be Skullclamp that's a staple in a sacrifice/token build. The other one I would definitely add in will be Sylvan Library it is costly but well worth the price paid (it's in all of my EDH decks with green...all). Alternatively for a slower meta, Phyrexian Arena is a great choice as it's consistent and will gain value the longer it stays in play. Necropotence is there if you really need that burst draw, the downside is that it does make you a target if you refill your hand constantly which is the reason why you run it, but you also have to take note that it does require . If you can consistently get the mana fixing for that, Necropotence is a great way for CA. Tymna the Weaver is also a great card that can draw plenty of cards when you have creatures on the battlefield that also allows your dorks to draw as well.

Some budget options for card advantage that isn't to pricey that fits the theme:

• Smothering Abomination
• Mindblade Render
• Underworld Connections
• Arch of Orazca
• Grim Backwoods
• Staff of Nin
• Mentor of the Meek
• Slate of Ancestry
• Bloodgift Demon
• Inheritance
• Deathreap Ritual
• Arcane Encyclopedia
• Carnage Altar
• Mind's Eye

There was a time when Bloom Tender was only $8, these past recent year made it jump so high up (-_-)

goldlion were you able to check out the linked deck?

Hello,

I am interested in helping to test the deck, but my time is limited right now, maybe more over the Holidays.

So far I am having slight problems with the mana base in the first few turns, I would have like to be able to Crop Rotation for an Overgrown Tomb(I already had the utilities in my hand).

Cheers

Because of the importance of the hidden commander, I was painfully longing for a tutor in the early game, if only to get Birthing Pod.

Demonic Tutor would not be a luxury here, possibliy also a Vampiric Tutor. I wouldn't mind losing Cryptolith Rite and Exquisite Blood over this.

Good thought, thanks Heliogabale! Done. I added Vampiric Tutor in exchange for Exquisite Blood due to the casting cost of exquisite blood, it's mainly win-more/fun times value (if the win-con comes out fast enough, blood is probably too far out of reach while not needed) and the need for mana I'm seeing Cryptolith Rite could fulfill.

Small tuning - I replaced Strangleroot Geist w/ Butcher Ghoul to make it an easier early drop. What do you think Abzkaban?

I figure the undying with Butcher and Young Wolf good value to fuel things happening with Ghave's abilities, the altars, ETB +1/+1 counter triggers of Bloodspore Thrinax (and I'd like to add another, like Cathars' Crusade, if only it was a cmc lower) - but, i'm not sure where the line is with this being an enabler or something that takes away from the larger strategy.

Also adding Inventors' Fair to retrieve the pod (or Crucible of Worlds), thanks to SynergyBuild's recommendation on hkhssweiss's version of "Google Ghave"

Wait, Inventors' Fair needs 3 artifacts... you sure?

To achieve the 1 life per turn? I think in exchange for the value it offers in retrieving both Birth Pod and Crucible of Worlds while still tapping for a mana, it seemed good to my inexperienced self :). What do you think?

Other benefit I just found with Butcher Ghoul is I could pod him into Fertilid or Shaman of Forgotten Ways, Maralen of the Mornsong or Aven Mindcensor.

I just used Inventors' Fair with the help of Pattern of Rebirth to get a turn 7 Ob Nixilis/Avatar trigger, then turn 8 fertilid with Butcher Ghoul. Field of Ruin was out on the battlefield as well.

I think SynergyBuild is referring to the very last phrase of the ability that allows you to fetch.

At this point Demonic Tutor or Enlightened Tutor would be better.

goldlion

No what SynergyBuild meant was that to activate for the tutor you need 3 artifacts as well. You are only running 8 so far so chances to activate the tutor effect are quite low.

oops - missed that. Thanks for pointing it out Heliogabale & hkhssweiss

Yeah, that is why I had to make a new version to abuse it!

I've only had a chance to playtest a few times, but when I did I found myself wanting more early ramp and tutors. Maybe I'm not playing it right, but I felt like the searches were not living up to their potential unless I had Ob Nixilis out, so I was hesitant to use them. I'm Swamped this whole week, so I'm trying to find time to squeeze in to test it some more.

I think Butcher Ghoul is a good replacement for Strangleroot Geist. The casting cost makes it easier to play, and you really don't need the haste that Geist offers. I think the question you need to ask yourself is how much do you need cards to interact in synergy with Ghave. Butcher Ghoul is good for fueling the altars as a repeatable sac outlet, and you can Birthing Pod him into Fertilid. If you want a cheaper Cathars' Crusade, you could try Ivy Lane Denizen though it's not nearly as good as the enchantment even if it can still fit into some combos with Ghave. Juniper Order Ranger doesn't really solve your cmc problem. Basically my question is what role do you expect these pieces to serve in the overall strategy?

I hear you Abzkaban. It's true. I'm of two minds with this.

I've been hoping to find a balance between some level of consistency, but also an interesting and somewhat diverse play experience. My playgroup is varied in skill levels and not quite competitive, which leads me to want to be able to play to context rather than figure out the fastest way to close out the game. If I pack more tutors in, I fear the interactivity and diversity in game play will be lost.

I have a bit of an aversion streamlining this too much as then even I wont have fun with it in my current meta. Again, our games run between turn 9 and turn 16 or more.

I think the challenge with play-tests we do on here is that it's in a vacuum and its success is based on how fast it can reach it's win-con - we don't have an effective way to grade and tune a deck based on how interactive it is cause we can't experience that, so I don't know where to draw the line until I get it together and play it. For me EDH is such a social play experience, so I aim for decks that make that more interesting... and at this point the majority of my meta doesn't have the competitive deck building sensibilities (or expensive cards) to make "straight to the point" decks as well, and so playing one myself wouldn't be an interesting play experience. For example, I haven't taken my regular Ghave deck to where yours is even though I know the combo potential (and have most of the cards) because it's already strong in my meta and often not enjoyed (whiners, haha).

I'm kinda going through this thought process "out loud" right now.

Perhaps the thing to do is go the direction you guys keep encouraging and fully tune it up... I can take it as a learning experience cause this'll be the first deck I've done it with before, and then play around making an interactive "chilled out" more "everyman(woman)" version afterward. Go all out, then pull it back after seeing how it can play. I do have one friend in my meta I could run a faster version against.

With that said - I guess Butcher Ghoul would fit in here with the reasoning mentioned before, especially as a repeatable sac. Then Young Wolf should probably be replaced with an Elvish Mystic or perhaps a Sakura-Tribe Elder? The elder could mana fix in the early game, but also be Birthing Poded for the same things as Butcher Ghoul with its 2 cmc, if I have the lands I need.

I was thinking Cathars' Crusade triggers because of the token landfalls from Emeria Angel and Sporemound (plus ghave). But if I wanted to make this mainly Ob Nixilis Pain focused, all three card spots (4 including bloodspore) could be replaced with cards that get either Ob Nixilis out and running... Actually I'm over 100, so with those 4 gone I'd be closer to a complete card count.

Then, hopefully I'll pull a Diabolic Tutor during the Ultimate Master tournie at GP Vancouver this month so I can get one of those in here for you ;P

What do you think?

Avatar of Growth is not a legal card in the format. I would remove it unless your playgroup allows it.