All Nightmare Long (SBT Primer)

Commander / EDH* Lilbrudder

SCORE: 169 | 149 COMMENTS | 64951 VIEWS | IN 110 FOLDERS


Going in a new direction —Aug. 13, 2016

After considerable playtesting and research I have come to a few conclusions:

1) Focusing on one combo in this color scheme at the expense of others is counterproductive. Therefore, I have cut Manipulate Fate and Extract for more globally useful tutors in Grim Tutor and Drift of Phantasms.

2) In an all in combo build 1 mana cantrips such as Ponder, Preordain, and Brainstorm are consistently better than large reanimation targets like Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. I have cut several reanimation targets and spells for only the essentials and therefore have shifted the deck from a reanimation deck that wins via combo to a combo deck that sometimes assembles combos with reanimation.

3) The largest thing keeping this all in combo deck from reaching its potential is the needed critical mass of 33-35 creatures to support Sidisi. Therefore I have cut many good but non-essential creatures from the deck to add cards that facilitate early combos. This renders Sidisi into a more limited role and she is far worse as a general, but the deck more consistently combos off in the first 4 turns with counterspell support. This marks a dramatic difference between this an my midrange deck that is still built around Sidisi.

4) I have also finally found a Intuition package to my liking in Noxious Revival, Snapcaster Mage, and desired combo piece. Worst case scenario I have to pay an additional 2 mana to get the card I want to hand and I can do the whole process at instant speed on my opponents end step or split up between end step and upkeep. Yay for progress!

thegigibeast says... #1

Would Tainted Pact/Demonic Consultation be good enough to fetch Food Chain combo? Just name it and hope to exile the other pieces?

July 21, 2016 11:19 p.m.

Lilbrudder says... #2

These are good suggestions but I honestly have no experience with either card. The effect is certainly powerful and fast. My only concern is that I may exile a necessary piece to end of the combo in the process and break my deck. Definitely worth testing. Keep in mind food chain is merely one of 3 primary combos, so I only have so many spots for narrow tutors.

July 21, 2016 11:34 p.m. Edited.

Lilbrudder says... #3

thegigibeast: The more I think about it as long as we have Tidespout Tyrant in hand or in the graveyard with a reanimation spell or creature like Body Double in hand the other pieces to the combo really aren't necessary in most circumstances. An Intuition package of Body Double Tidespout Tyrant and Eternal Witness would ensure the combo would win the game even if most my library is exiled searching for Food Chain since you can beat down the table with zombies over a couple turns and bounce all opponents permanents every turn. If I were to add one or both of these cards what would you take out?

July 22, 2016 7:19 a.m.

Pheardemons says... #4

Thanks for letting me know about this version. I, of course, have a couple questions for you about some cards.

Manipulate Fate - I understand you'll exile Eternal Scourge and Misthollow Griffin but what is your third target? Do you even care what it is as long as you can get Food Chain and Tidespout Tyrant onto the battlefield?

Shallow Grave seems extremely situational. Especially when you could mill your entire library with Hermit Druid the top creature card could be anything, and you have to exile it. Does that card work enough for it to be truly worth considering? Are there any particular combos that go with that? I'm curious about this card.

What are the cards you are looking for when you cast Eldritch Evolution? Maybe sacrifice a one mana creature to get into Eternal Scourge with Food Chain on the battlefield? Also a two mana creature for Misthollow Griffin for the same reason?

Is Trinket Mage truly worth the spot when it only fetches for one of three cards in the deck? Granted they are mana rocks, but it seems like a card you'd be upset to draw, or a card you'd hold in your hand because you have better things to cast. I also see you're playing the artifact lands which it can search for also. Is it there to help fix colors? I don't have any experience with it which is why I'm asking.

Deathrite Shaman - While absolutely powerful in Legacy, and banned in Modern, is it worthwhile in EDH? Especially in one that utilizes the graveyard when Deathrite Shaman exiles whatever card you choose. Granted you can choose from an opponent's yard, but isn't that somewhat situational? How has it played for you?

Since this deck is all in, is Worldly Tutor somewhat of a replacement for Woodland Bellower? To search for Hermit Druid? Or do you search for another creature more often?

Lastly, since this deck is all in, one combination you may want to consider. I don't remember if it was you I told this to, so if this is a repeat I apologize for it. Since you run no basics and Hermit Druid, another possible win condition is to mill your opponents out with Altar of Dementia, Dread, and Sidisi. I'm not sure if this would fit in this deck being that it actually may be too slow for this version, or possibly clunky, but with Dread as the last card sacrifice a creature to get one zombie, reshuffle Dread, then continuously sacrifice that zombie to mill everyone out. Let me know what you think about it. I'm seriously considering it for my deck (granted it's not all in like this one), but something to lean back on in a jam.

I've actually been debating on going no-basics with Hermit Druid. Is that why you play the artifact lands? Tap for the right colors but don't stop Hermit Druid? How does it play usually? Does it backfire at all? If so do the wins outweigh the occasional backfire?

July 31, 2016 9:49 p.m.

Pheardemons says... #5

Fatestitcher - Another card to ask about. Granted the unearth is an insane combination with it, but what combo is it there for? If any?

July 31, 2016 10:08 p.m.

Lilbrudder says... #6

The third target on Manipulate Fate is either Phyrexian Devourer after Necrotic Ooze combo is no longer viable or a land.

Shallow Grave is much better than it looks. For instance Entomb, Survival of the Fittest, Buried Alive, Fauna Shaman, and baby jace all give me control over my top card. Beyond that lets say my opponent counters my hermit druid on turn 2. The next turn I can Shallow Grave activate hermit druids ability at instant speed and win.

Beyond your examples for Eldritch Evolution I also go for Eternal Witness, or with 3 drops Sidisi, Undead Visier or with Sidisi, Brood Tyrant I go for the second half of my mike and trike or deadeye peregrine drake combos.

Trinket Mage is an auto include. All my combos use plenty of colorless and I have the 3 best mana rocks available. It always accelerates my win condition by a full turn or two every time I cast it and worst case I get an artifact land to fix my mana.

Deathrite Shaman: Is a one drop mana dork which is incredibly important with Food Chain since on turn 3 I can tap it for mana cast Food Chain then exile my mana dork to get the 6 total mana needed to cast both Food Chain and Eternal Scourge that turn. In competitive edh everyone uses fetchlands so it is basically a Birds of Paradise with upside. It also is targeted gravehate and exiles my Eternal Scourge and Misthollow Griffin from my graveyard.

I go for Hermit Druid with Worldly Tutor 95% of the time if its in my opening hand. Worldly Tutor is generally better than Woodland Bellower in this deck since it allows me to activate hermit druid and win the game on turn 3 in a vacuum every it is in my opening hand. Bellower may be worth a spot in this list though, especially if I bring Flash back. Bellower is also insane with Shallow Grave.

As for 0% basics it is worth it as long as noone in your playgroup runs non basic hate like Blood Moon or Back to Basics. If they do I would prefer 3 or 4 basics and instead of lab man victories I would revert back to Songs of the Damned + Yawgmoth's Will , which is slower but far less dangerous.

Fatestitcher: Outside its usefulenss with hermit druid it can untap Birthing Pod which helps assemble Deadeye Navigator + Peregrine Drake .

July 31, 2016 10:18 p.m. Edited.

Lilbrudder says... #7

Pheardemons: By the way I like your altar win condition, but I would have to test it more to see how it plays out.

July 31, 2016 10:32 p.m.

Pheardemons says... #8

Thanks for the descriptions man. Definitely worth consideration for my deck, not sure if I want an all-in deck, but some of these combinations sound fun and would put a smile one my face to see my friend's faces if they went off.

Hope you don't mind a couple more questions.

Exhume is a great reanimate card, but have you considered Dance of the Dead? Entering the battlefield tapped can be a pull back in some decks, but in a deck that focuses on ETB triggers or straight comboing it isn't nearly as much of a drawback. A tapped Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, Eternal Scourge or Misthollow Griffin, Rune-Scarred Demon, Deadeye Navigator, ect doesn't negatively impact the deck at all. Granted casting Exhume turn two probably means your opponents won't have a creature, but maybe something to consider if you haven't already.

Being that Eternal Scourge is basically a safe card wherever it is put (meaning you're not worried about it being in your hand, graveyard, or exile) is having him AND Misthollow Griffin worthwhile in the deck? I definitely understand redundancy in EDH but you'll never truly lose one or the other with their effects. Curious.

With this version of the deck do you cast, even rely, on Sidisi, Brood Tyrant at all?

Birthing Pod seems somewhat of a midrange card, does it pull it's weight in an all-in deck? You highly recommended it for my deck, it just seems slow and clunky. I guess against a control heavy deck I see it doing a lot.

A lot of the mana dorks in this deck produce mana symbol g only. One CMC mana dorks only producing one color is better tan two CMC mana dorks producing any color? Do they ramp the deck enough to matter even if they really only produce one color?

Again hope you don't mind the questions, I'm just looking for combinations and a way to make my deck a little more efficient. Especially when I'm going to college so I'll have even less money. I can't buy a bunch of cards, then change the deck all over again. Looking for good things to playtest before I buy.

Glad you like the combo. I'm considering it mainly as a back-up if needed. Your Laboratory Maniac combos are definitely faster, but many people will always hold their creature destruction after that. I figured maybe a different way to win would be beneficial. I also forgot to mention Extractor Demon or Selhoff Occultist are needed to be on the battlefield so Altar of Dementia can target you and one of the others targets an opponent. Vice Versa also works. It may be a lot of cards, but with Yawgmoth's Will their easier to cast. Also Extractor Demon can be unearthed the turn you want to pull it off. Again not sure if it would work here, but maybe in your "slower" version.

August 1, 2016 12:01 a.m.

Lilbrudder says... #9

Pheardemons: I am always happy to chat about mtg. Now to your questions...Birthing Pod is easily one of the best combo enablers/card advantage engines green has. While not as fast as Survival of the Fittest it has the advantage of only needing colorless mana (and life) to work. Yet another reason why Trinket Mage is worth a slot. Pod can easily facilitate a win condition in a couple activations. With either Fatestitcher or Kiora's Follower in play I can win in a single turn most of the time. Pod adds a tremendous amount of consistency to the deck. Even if I only used it to pod Sidisi into undead Sidisi it would be worth a spot. Rather than being slow and clunky it is brutally efficient, which is why it is banned in modern. The deck it supported was dominant. Moreover this is reanimator deck that is creature heavy, which makes it particularly good, since it gives me access to the majority of the key spells in my library and I can reanimate the creature I podded.

Dance of the Dead is good, but for Baby jace's flashback and the many tap creatures I use I prefer exhume. If this deck had white I would use dance for its interaction with Sun Titan.

While I am not always a fan of redundancy in combo peices with Tainted Pact and Demonic Consultation as Food Chain tutors it is definitely necessary to run Misthollow Griffin. Doubling the chances you exile the right creature before you get to food chain means you can essentially demonic tutor for both cards for 1-2 mana at instant speed! That is absolutely insane value.

I don't particularly like Laboratory Maniac but he has synergy with my dangerous Food Chain tutors and Hermit Druid. This deck is a thought experiment in how fast I can win in a vacuum. He requires alot of counterspell backup but he is very fast. An alternative to him that is vastly safer if 1 mana slower is to Dread Return into Eternal Witness for Victimize for mike and trike. Memory's Journey can also keep.me from dying if they kill lab man, but I have yet to find a spot for it.

You are correct that sidisi is less of a focus in this version of the deck, but she is still an essential.combo piece for Food Chain and Deadeye Navigator + Peregrine Drake and the only general suited to this particular strategy.

Btw I feel like if you want to do your mill win condition with Dread and Altar of Dementia, the four horseman combo Aphetto Alchemist/Basalt Monolith + Mesmeric Orb and Sidisi, Brood Tyrant might be worthwhile. If nothing else it makes sidisi even more of a focus, which I suspect is important for you.

Because I am using an optimal 9-3-3 mana base and all my win conditions are colorless heavy, the fact many of my one drop mana dorks only produce one color is not much of a drawback. Moreover, most fuel Survival of the Fittest which has heavy green requirements. On the other hand, the massive tempo boost they provide is vastly more important. For instance they facilitate plays such as:

Turn 1 Llanowar Elves

Turn 2 Trinket Mage grabbing Mana Crypt

Turn 3 Buried Alive + Victimize gg

And

Turn 1: Llanowar Elves

Turn 2: Transmute Drift of Phantasms for Food Chain or Eternal Scourge

Turn 3: play Food Chain exile Llanowar Elves with 3 floating mana cast Eternal Scourge combo off gg.

As you can see playing a turn 1 mana dork allows you to tutor for the peice you need to win on turn 3 and play a card like Swan Song. That is not to say that turn 2 mana dorks don't have a place, but they need to be VERY powerful to justify a spot. I only use Kiora's Follower and Bloom Tender due to their raw power and previously described interactions, but Priest of Titania and Devoted Druid (for its Necrotic Ooze upside) have some merit as well.

August 1, 2016 10:10 a.m.

Pheardemons says... #10

What is the 9-3-3 mana base?

And I do like playing my commander in an EDH game, but I'm also slowly getting the hang of competitive. If sometimes the commander is irrelevant or just there for the colors I guess I need to get used to that for this deck.

The "Four Horseman" combination I don't quite understand. Mesmeric Orb and Basalt Monolith can mill your entire library by itself. What does Aphetto Alchemist have to do there?

As always thanks for the help and descriptions.

August 1, 2016 10:29 a.m.

Lilbrudder says... #11

9-3-3 simply means 9 fetchlands, 3 original duals, and 3 shock duals. It is considered the optimal starting point for any 3 color mana base.

I agree with you that the commander should be an essential part of the deck. She is simply a plan B or C in this deck, which is why I prefer my slow deck or the non-competitive bounce land version that I occassionally take to commander night.

Aphetto Alchemist can untap itself just like Basalt Monolith to trigger Mesmeric Orb. It is just a creature based alternative to one half of the combo.

August 1, 2016 10:41 a.m.

Pheardemons says... #12

OOOOOOOOHHH. I was totally testing you and you passed! Congratulations.

August 1, 2016 10:55 a.m.

Lilbrudder says... #13

Yay for me I guess...lol

August 1, 2016 11:12 a.m.

Pheardemons says... #14

The more I think about it the Laboratory Maniac combo seems like a very viable alternate win condition. Why did you not include it in your other version?

August 1, 2016 1:53 p.m.

Lilbrudder says... #15

First, it requires I mill or exile my whole library so if it fails I am guaranteed to lose.

Second, it is well known as a combo piece so it paints a target on my back

Third the food chain tutors it synergizes with have the potential to exile all my win conditions and break my deck before they get to food chain.

Fourth, 0% basic hermit druid combo takes up alot of deckslots and has serious weaknesses.

Is a half turn quicker win con on average worth sacraficing the ability to be viable after the first 5 turns? I honestly don't know the answer to the question, which is why I am testing 2 decks at once and relying on persons such as yourself to give me additional feedback :-)

August 1, 2016 2:32 p.m. Edited.

Pheardemons says... #16

Fair enough. I was thinking more of "if all else fails" type thing. Playing two basics with Hermit Druid or the Mesmeric Orb combinations mills a lot of your deck, and if that doesn't work when you run out you simply cast Laboratory Maniac. Thought process anyway.

August 1, 2016 2:45 p.m.

Lilbrudder says... #17

Its great as a fallback option. 2 basics is the ideal number for hermit druid in my opinion.

August 1, 2016 4:08 p.m.

Megalomania says... #18

I think the list looks fine as it is.

If this was mine though, i'd take out the necromancer, jin-gitaxias, jace and joraga. I'm not sure how necessary they are to the deck but adding some lands or some ramp would definitely help. The necromancer, being a creature, seems a bit unreliable so you might want to swap it out with other reanimation cards like Dance of the Dead or Necromancy or the other 3 CMC card like it that has buyback.

Instead of having the deck revolve around Food Chain, i'd focus more on the Ooze combo. The Food Chain combo is admittedly a lot flashier but it doesn't win you the game outright unlike Necrotic Ooze or unless youre using Tasigur as your commander which I still think is what you should do. Lol.

I'm also curious how effective Hermit Druid to LabMan is in your meta. In mine, people will even use board wipes just to get rid of Hermit Druid, making it quite an improbable way of winning the game.

August 12, 2016 8:46 p.m.

Lilbrudder says... #19

Megalomania: As always I definitely appreciate your insight and love for the bananna man :-) Seriously though you have a great mind for this game. Nearly all your suggested cuts make sense to me.

Jace-Has been ok but not great for this deck. He can easily be cut.

Joraga- Is either great or annoyingly bad. Hes a 1 drop that doesn't do what a 1 drop should for this deck.

Jin- Is very much a relic of the old version of this deck. Outside sneaking it into play on turn 1 or 2 I really don't like to see him in my hand.

The necromancer is my only issue. It is a wonderful Survival of the Fittest target and can also give Hermit Druid haste if he gets killed, which is common. Thats why Shallow Grave is in the deck. The hermit druid combo is much better on paper than in reality but its so threatening that I can bait removal on command with it.

I agree that with the bevy of excellent combos BUG has at disposal it does not make sense to focus on one combo at the expense of others. I have been considering dropping Manipulate Fate for this reason since even Perplex is better overall for this deck.

Tasigur does not interact well with food chain as the mana it produces can only be used for creatures not creature abilities. Sidisi is the only BUG general that can use the combo and it is great. It also relaiably wins the game with a somewhat intact library the turn it is cast with no additional mana or cards in hand needed. For this particular archetype I believe that Sidisi is better. Tasigur is better at ad Naus doomsday, storm, and control, but reanimator creature based combos he is very meh.

August 12, 2016 11:05 p.m.

Megalomania says... #20

Thanks. I completely forgot about Food Chain being limited to creature spells only. I was thinking more about your other infinite mana combos which would allow you to cast Tasigur and fetch your kill card.

Anyways, is the Food Chain combo that easy to assemble? It looked awesome the first time I saw it but now I think going Buried Alive, sending Deadeye Navigator, Peregrine Drake and Narcomoeba to the gy then cast Victimize to get infinite mana might be easier.

August 12, 2016 11:49 p.m.