Tree of Tales
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|Commander / EDH||Legal|
|Commander: Rule 0||Legal|
Latest Decks as Commander
Tree of Tales Discussion
2 months ago
Hello fellow Planeswalkers. I made this thread so we can discuss the cards currently on the Modern banlist (SEE BOTTOM OF POST) and look if there may be candidates for unbanning, since it has been a while since something moved off the list.
I'm one of those crazy people that wants to live in a world where Mental Misstep and Gitaxian Probe are legal, but I see how that's not realistic whatsoever, so I won't talk about here. Let's have this discussion to be about REALISTIC, reasonable and safe unbannings.
Here are my candidates:
Deathrite Shaman - With all the easy cheap removal and grave hate in the format plus the general push of power level in the recent years, is this really a big deal anymore? Not even sure Jund wants it anymore. Since this doesn't enable a game winning combo or lockout on the spot, I think it deserves a second chance.
Artifact land cycle ala Ancient Den. So, they even injected another 10 artifact lands - are those even being played much competitively? My gut is this was a probe to see if they indeed could unban the old artifact lands. Artifact removal is much more available these days and the old artifact lands don't even come with indestructible sooo...
Rite of Flame - but Sergio! Fast mana is broken. Yes indeed. But they did ban Simian Spirit Guide and hear my out why Rite of Flame is weaker. SSG does not require you to play or a mountain to activate, Rite does and even costs a mana to begin with. SSG has a secondary feature being a creature and can be cast at a reasonable cost of 3 mana. Rite doesn't have that. Since they took Mox Opal and SSG, I think Rite of Flame might deserve a chance as a weaker substitution.
Please tell me what you think about that and/or show me your argumenst for other unbannings that you can see happening.
11 months ago
I know I'm a year late to this party, but infinite black mana is totally achievable in Golgari and it's the reason I want to build Ishkana as a non competitive commander.
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Cabal Coffers + Deserted Temple + Rings of Brighthearth is infinite black. You can fetch it pretty easily with Scapeshift searching up the three lands mentioned above as well as Vault of Whispers, Tree of Tales, Darksteel Citadel and Inventors' Fair to get ahold of Rings.
It takes a full turn from casting Scapeshift which is why I say I want to build it as a 75% non-cEDH deck, but a Scapeshift combo that wins without Valakut is kinda cool in my opinion.
1 year ago
Cool deck! You might like these: Brass's Bounty, Bastion Protector, Druids' Repository, Bravado, Sigil of the Nayan Gods, Hope Against Hope, Great Furnace, Ancient Den, Tree of Tales, Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer, Slate of Ancestry, Ohran Frostfang, Hero's Blade, Pollenbright Wings, Cathars' Crusade, Hunter's Insight
1 year ago
Hi, I just recently brewed up a Tatyova list that is aiming to be competitive and I wanted to ask about a few of your choices. I acknowledge that you have likely tested and played this deck more often but I am mostly curious about some of your card choices and the direction that you took this list. You can find my deck here: ~PDH~ When Lands Came to Value Town (Tatyova)
Why do you include so much card draw? I actually run zero spells or otherwise that draw me cards other than lands through Tatyova. When I first was putting the list together I had a bunch in the form of Ponder, Gush, and so on but ended up cutting them for other cards.
Some of your Land fetchings spells just seem bad. I don't mean to offend but cards like Nature's Lore, Search for Tomorrow, Shoreline Ranger, Spoils of Victory, Farseek, Kodama's Reach and Rampant Growth just don't seem worth it to me. Instead of some of these fetch spells, I run 40 lands. I was also surprised that you are not running Dreamscape Artist (Springbloom Druid just seems like a worse version). It's like a repeatable Harrow and gets you two Tatyova triggers. I would argue that that card is one of the most powerful cards in my deck behind Tatyova ofc and Mystic Sanctuary.
I decided to include more utility lands such as Bojuka Bog, Khalni Garden, and Sejiri Steppe. This decision on my part to include these was in spite of some of them not being in Green Blue but I though their value outweighs that downside. Bojuka Bog for example is better than Relic of Progenitus in this deck because you can flash it in with a creature like Walking Atlas and exile a target players bin and draw a card like relic. The thing is though that Bog is repeatable through your creatures that bounce your lands. Sejiri Steppe is similar in the way that its repeatable protection for Tatyova or another important creature.
I noticed you only ran 1 land bouncing creature. In my deck, these guys power much of the value. With them and Halimar Depths I can basically ponder each turn at least once, it allows me to repeat the ETB effects that I mentioned above, and It also allows me to get a land drop in if I missed one for some reason. Floodbringer, Oboro Breezecaller, Soratami Rainshaper are the ones I run in addition.
Now a few suggestions I have: Whispersilk Cloak, Power Sink, Universal Solvent, Vines of Vastwood, Scaretiller, Explorer's Scope (This works well in conjunction with Adventuring Gear and Aqueous Form), Seat of the Synod and Tree of Tales can be tutored with Trinket Mage, Library of Leng, Stone-Seeder Hierophant/Krosan Restorer, Spidersilk Armor (So the majority of your board doesn't die to Shrivel, Electrickery or something like that and harder for Pestilence and Crypt Rats.) Also Snap can ramp you is you have a land that taps for two and same with Frantic Search if you do want to play cantrips. Another win-con that will win you the game as soon as you combo off is Sage's Row Denizen that is assuming that you are not using Mystic Sanctuary.
Thank you for hearing me out. I am sure that there is a good reason for many of the cards I just questioned and I am excited to hear them to understand your deck better. If you have questions about my choices and reasoning I would be more than happy to explain further. I am trying to make the best Tatyova deck that I can and just wanted to know why a list with a similar end goal is running certain cards that I cut out.
Lastly, I just wanted to say that after looking through your list I am considering running: Lull and Moment's Peace because sometimes this deck has a problem stabilizing early because my playgroup sees my deck as a very large threat. Merchant Scroll, I don't know why I was not running it. Mystic Remora and Rhystic Study are just too good to pass up and I probably should have been running them. I have just one problem and that would be cutting cards. I would apreciate it if you could take a look at my list and tell me what you think.
1 year ago
I think more important than mana (land and artifact where all the $$$ is spent), is Sylvan Tutor and Worldly Tutor will give you a higher consistency on T3/T4 infect wins. Unfortunately they aren't cheap unless they get reprints.
Harrow is an under-utilized ramp, it's benefit over something like Cultivate is that the lands come in untapped, so your net cost for that extra land is CMC1 (sac the land you just tapped of course) and you can play something else that turn!
I have been getting tired of Kemba, Kha Regent lack of performance as lately in my budget deck, often feels like a mis-utilization of equipment, unless I have the equip on-board to re-purpose for combat, and now that Balan, Wandering Knight is out of budget for my deck now, makes it even worse for me. Felt like Pride Sovereign 2.0. But then again, some games I have high success with both those cats in my budget league with the go-wide they provide, so really can't exclude either.
Has a cohesive strategy, should be out to early aggro, has a couple built in mid-range ability to win, good lifegain. I would assume it's pretty fun to play too.
1 year ago
Thanks for all the discussion, glad you liked the deck enough to tweak and innovate it, I've been trying but as you can see it's still not quite there yet.
I like Kaheera, the Orphanguard, I actually play a Nethroi, Apex of Death brawl deck with it as the companion. Questing Beast is good with Kaheera, the Orphanguard and can hit planeswalkers, but he doesn't work with Arahbo, Roar of the World even though he LOOKS like a cat to me! Also, Nissa, Who Shakes the World creates Elemental creatures, so it's also not bad, Auspicious Starrix was also been okay, but in Commander all are a bit too slow, plus Auspicious Starrix only good because my brawl commander and things like Migratory Greathorn can trigger him, so nothing too exciting there. The +1 isn't quite a bit to get to a kill with infect, so have to decide with the changes to the companion rule, if it's still worth it, I like the flavor of it though, and it's about having fun as much as the pursuit of winning when your starting with Arahbo, Roar of the World as the commander anyway!
Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest has challenges too, but I like the flavor. That is 1) They are enchantments, which we really only have a couple good ones, Enlightened Tutor, Idyllic Tutor and Sterling Grove, usually I pull Sylvan Library as soon as I can and pay the 8 life a turn to cycle through cards, but for you, you need 2/3 tutors to get there so I might just go straight for combo pieces. Sterling Grove isn't highly exciting, but it can also protect your combo pieces too. Unfortunately Concordant Crossroads can't even get it there, because the Squirrel's are tapped.
TzickyT is right, Heliod, Sun-Crowned + Walking Ballista is still mana intensive, and doesn't go off quickly enough. I usually rely on early Infect to take out the Grixis () player first to avoid early Thassa's Oracle win. If there are several Fish-Consul deck's it's kind of hopeless as I haven't built in any Fish-interaction (like Hushbringer or Tithe). If you can hit the early win-con decks, I can often ramp/resolve the Heliod, Sun-Crowned and take them out. I'm usually not the biggest threat, often needs other to go for the win and get Counterspell too.
I don't have another viable win-con in the cat, T5-7 usually just rely on Stonehewer Giant to pull me what I need to eliminate, protection from sword and Grafted Exoskeleton for example. is a challenge because have no way, but rarely see in commander.
Mox Opal is reasonable replace for Birds of Paradise, don't forget Ancient Den + Tree of Tales are artifacts, and Inkmoth Nexus can become one in a pinch too. Here's the real challenge though Hypergeometric Calc you're only 13.6% to have 3 artifacts on T1 (8 cards drawn), but really 3 aren't T1 viable (Grafted and Swords), so it's more like 8.3%. T2 only 18.2%. T3 23.2%. So have to evaluate how many games are going beyond that and how far, otherwise Mox Opal going to be a dead draw too many games. We don't really tutor artifacts either beyond equipment once we're established. Steelshaper's Gift.
Rhonas the Indomitable is good because I find I multi-trigger his ability, where Arahbo, Roar of the World, I rarely use his secondary ability. Not sure what to do there, may just have rely on other tactics. Approach of the Second Sun is way way way to slow, don't do that.
Hunter's Insight I've had success with because it's instant and draws a lot of cards, Lifecrafter's Bestiary (mana sponge and we're not creature heavy), and Momentous Fall (better but still a light cost intensive CMC4+sac). Puresteel Paladin for me still needs more AF support to, sometimes, he doesn't activate his second ability which is unacceptable.
Greenwarden of Murasa is good late game, but I might go with the pressure of a Questing Beast that hits for 5 and nails a planeswalker over that late of a play. Plus what's he pulling back, your Infect, at that point probably won't connect with combat damage anyway?
With Chord of Calling you can still do your best to resolve a Felidar Sovereign at EOT to win, but I found I didn't have enough creatures to get it off quick enough too. I know I'm just stating problems, unfortunately, still working on solving them myself (or abandoned them). Emerald Medallion is not bad because it adds to your AF count, but problem is the Infect creature is and the double-strike is except Berserk but it doesn't help with that anyway!!
Bronzehide Lion I find too mana spongy too, saving mana for the wrong reasons, but he's recursive, so I don't unlike him haha. If your going Kaheera, the Orphanguard might consider King of the Pride, but I'm meh on him as well. Need some strong cats!
I do have a Cat tribal budget (for $50 commander league) Mirri, Little Kid Aggro, depending on how budget your budget is TzickyT, as I mentioned this one is restricted budget so it has some interesting card choices to keep under budget, games have an hour time limit too, so that also drove several aggressive vs. defensive choices as well.
Knixx, I'll go through your full list tomorrow, and see if I can think of anything that might work. Since you already have Earthcraft, feel there must be a secondary interaction to abuse it as well you could leverage.
Thanks for the discussion, appreciated, I'll add Earthcraft to my Alternative Synergies Excluded so others can see it as well. The Great Henge is draw and an AF but not super helpful for Mox Opal, but with the Earthcraft I feel drawing for each Squirrel (which is a 2/2) could also draw into an enabler (untap and creatures get haste and +x/+x where x is the number of attacking creatures, something like that, there must be in , and since you draw into it every time), problem is, can't make infinite Squirrel then because you draw out, but if some way to win with like 50 Squirrels, a win is a win you know. Lemme thing on it lol.
1 year ago
mrb0jangles2186 I dont know if you would consider adding them, but 5 of the 6 artifact lands, would help play into the Akiri buffs :)
1 year ago
Pretty solid list so far, I have a few suggestions though. First and foremost, if you haven't checked out the cEDH decklist database, I recommend it. If you're truly wanting to get in to cEDH, then that is a good outlet for deck brewing. There are a bunch of cards in your list that are solid picks for a Kinnan deck, but there are also some that aren't up to snuff with the meta, but that's not a necessarily bad thing. Competitive EDH is about play the most powerful cards in the your color pie to achieve your overall win condition and to do it as efficient and consistent as possible. Kinnan is quite new and people are still trying to find the best way to brew the deck, but his strategy is undoubtedly proactive, so we have to try to overwhelm our opponents as fast as possible.
Here are the cards in your deck that you just don't see in the cEDH meta. Not a bad thing, just something to consider.
Your mana dorks are higher in CMC that the meta heavy mana dorks. This puts them being cast usually around turn two, which is when you want to be casting Kinnan.
Arcum's Astrolabe - It's just way too circumstantial, especially when you only have 6 snow lands in the deck. This card would be dead in your hand most of the time. There are also better mana rocks.
Mind Stone has been sub-par for a while. In cEDH, you want to get plenty of mana as soon as possible so you can start setting up for win quickly. This is why Grim Monolith and Mana Vault are very prevalent in the meta. They are net positive mana rocks that come in quickly.
Whir of Invention and Blue Sun's Zenith are on the cusp of being played in the meta and not, mostly Blue Sun's Zenith as it's used to help draw the deck after getting infinite mana. Usually you see these more in mono blue decks because they have plenty of blue to pay the non-generic mana and can go big with the X cost, however, once you leave mono blue it's very difficult to keep up mana for interaction after casting these and usually when X is greater than 2, it's worth someone countering it. If they're countered, the feel bads set in as you're now 5-6 mana behind. I would suggest cutting at least Whir of Inventions for a cantrip like Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain that nets you cards for cheap.
Force of Vigor - It's not bad, I've seen a few decks run it that are more on the control side, but Kinnan is trying to be more proactive than reactive. Blue has some of the best removal in the game for cheap. Maybe consider a Chain of Vapor. That way if there is a problematic card for you on the board such as Cursed Totem or Linvala, Keeper of Silence, you can hit it regardless of what it is for one mana regardless of whose turn it is.
There are a few suggestions I'd like to make for you to add that are practically staples for most of the cEDH Kinnan decks:
Seedborn Muse to help you use your commander more and acquire an overwhelming board state.
Right now, if you were to play a game with this list, I wouldn't be afraid of you activating Kinnan because there's nothing that will severely impact the game. Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is in a lot of the other cEDH decks because getting this guy on the field is detrimental to every opponent's strategy. I suggest you get a higher creature count and put more scary things in the deck. You'll whiff a lot with on activations with a creature count that low.
Here is a link to my current Kinnan build that has been assembling win (in a vaccum) very consistently between turns 3 and 4: Kinnan Activations cEDH