Enchantment — Aura
You control enchanted enchantment.
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|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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Steal Enchantment Discussion
1 month ago
2 months ago
Lots to touch on in this thread
The reason Oko isn't run is almost strictly CMC and other relative options. He builds presence on the board and builds advantage, but there are tons of cards for 1-2 CMC that build board advantage, and better cards at 3 CMC that build board advantage. Gilded Drake does everything you could want Oko to do, except faster and better. The tempo swing from stealing the opposing card 1 CMC sooner as opposed to elk'ing the card is why the Drake sees play and Oko doesn't. Oko is also a board black hole, and you will be focused until Oko is gone. You correctly identify that walkers on the board changes play patterns, but walkers will overwhelmingly be obliterated from every opponent swinging at it until dead, rather than causing stalemates due to creature combat advantage. Oko's +2 and -5 are both also pretty much useless in the context of cedh, the +2 isn't relevant except metalcraft for something like Mox Opal and the life truly doesn't matter, and the -5 is just a limited Gilded Drake except it takes you even longer to use it. Oko as a deterrent on turn 2 doesn't work either, as your opponents will put out threats faster than you can elk and once again the imaginary stalemate this card causes doesn't happen in real games of 1v1v1v1. Oko's CMC of 3 also has another problem; it makes it extremely awkward to choose when to cast Oko, as it competes with many value engines that will outperform it (Rhystic Study comes to mind) and lots of commanders, especially partner commanders.
Legacy's Allure is a dogshit card for cedh, always has been, and the community has been blinded by their belief that the labmaniacs walk on water and speak for all of cedh. It requires multiple turns to turn on properly, is visible on the table the entire time, and forces you to give up opportunity cost in playing it and slotting it. When you talk about the cedh meta being slow to adjust, this is the card I think of. This is a nice litmus test for me to see if a deck is just another labmaniac copycat or someone put some actual brainpower into building something of value.
I can guarantee you with almost 100% certainty that no one cares about your qualifications, professional play, or your 2000 games with your inbred meta. Talk about the cards and give justifications for the choices, or bring actual cold hard statistics from a reputable and verifiable source. If your logic for an inclusion or removal of a card from a deck can't stand on its own, showing me all the accolades you've given yourself isn't going to help.
I agree that jaymc thinks his anecdotal experience with his tight knit playgroup applies to all competitive games and scenarios. I think jaymc also vastly underestimates how easy it is to assemble and protect a win, especially with cards like Silence at your disposal. While jaymc is correct that turn 2 and 3 wins are phasing out of the meta for decks with consistent back up plans and interchangeable pieces, I also firmly believe that jaymc doesn't play paper in shops or against strangers. You're going to see the Godo Helm deck go for the turn 2 win because its only like ~$400 to build and it works. You will see pods of Godo + Sidisi + a jank Grenzo deck, and you will realize just how insular your meta is. The 4-5 color valuepiles that have dominated the 60 card formats and now dominate cedh aren't going to be seen in paper with the 90% adherence you see online due to the actual raw cost of building the decks. To put it more bluntly: Jaymc builds decks to prey on midgame value builds because his meta is exclusively mid game value builds. The Labmaniac meta also suffers from this problem. When you sit down at a table that isn't 3+ players on midrange, this style of deck will struggle. It works because it assumes the other players act in their assumed best interest; getting fast mana, playing value engines, and holding counterspells. This assumption that every deck must pack value engines and counterspells has been detrimental to brewing and development and we can look almost exclusively to the labmaniacs for making this so popular.
Steal Enchantment is another symptom of the overall meta adjusting to prey on midrange decks. Against the aforementioned Godo + Sidisi + Grenzo table, this is almost always a dead draw. Is stealing a Smothering Tithe or Necropotence or Carpet of Flowers great? Sure, but once again expecting every deck to be a BUG+ value pile is a mistake from a building perspective and leaves your deck with angles to be exploited by savvy meta metagame brewers.
If you mention poker and cedh but don't mention the words "levels of thinking" why do you even bring it up? Statistical analysis is helpful for deck construction, but really understanding levels of thinking is the most useful and transferable skill poker can give magic players. Even talking about poker in the context of "lines of play tell a story and give information" is a skill that can be used in magic.
I firmly believe the only labmaniac worth his salt is Shaper. I despise how they ignore direct questions and tags, and I have been blocked by a few for asking them repeatedly to justify their deckbuilding choices. Use their decks for ideas and brews, but please stop kissing their feet every time they take a step, the hero worship is getting tiring.
2 months ago
I've been playing professionally myself, and though for not as much time, and for the sake doxing myself, I won't put up a record, I will say I have top-8ed in grand prixs for limited, and standard (I've put up top 32s in modern as well, and probably played more there, but never found the sweet spot where my deck really cruised the metagame).
I have consistently random queue against the cEDH metagame, with a 93% winrate against the field, and though sure, the "comp" queues for Untap.in, and similar websites may be subpar, I do believe that a group of 4 players no matter how skilled don't have the group-think that an entire community does. I fight the metagame, rather than an inbred group, though I understand that playgroup cEDH styles are relatively common.
I know metagames where Steal Enchantment is a must-run for any blue deck, due to Necros, Tithes, etc., to metagames where blue was hated so thoroughly that Carpet of Flowers was a waste. While I would never look down on them, assuming they are the pinnacle of cEDH, despite the players' skills and records, doesn't mean they are the pinnacle.
I take inspiration from plenty, in fact that is why I have enjoyed and tested the bloom piles I consider to be so strong nowadays, however I don't believe that they make up for the issues with their individual metagames.
Going Silence, backing it up with Pact of Negation and Mental Misstep, then oracling is an easy thing to do with an Ad Nauseam turn. Tymna/Thrasios can do it relatively easily pretty well, even agains the best decks, they can't pack enough interaction to stop more than a couple win lines at best, and that means turn 1-4 wins can occur, sure, games can go to turn 10, I've had plenty, however that doesn't make it the norm for the cEDH community.
I understand on the base that you may feel your playgroup is superior to the entire cEDH metagame, but I'd recommend seeing how you play against them, seriously take your decks against theirs, queue up against other players, and see your winrate with your superior lists to theirs, and show me the results. I won't state you are wrong, I don't know what the results will be, however I'd recommend doing that pretty regularly, to see if your deck goes well against the metagame you built for yourself or for the general cEDH metagame.
Playing professional MTG has helped me learn for cEDH, but I had to research Poker and bluffs and read The Art of War, and had to teach myself by the concepts laid out by professional poker players, etc. to get really good at it. I had to go back to college for stat II just to do research for properly making a calculator for estimating these complex interactions, and understand that simply playing competitively in the past doesn't make you a guru for cEDH.
I'm still not anywhere near the best in my opinion, but saying the rest of the metagame is slow to update I find quite nearsided, when amazing users like ShaperSavant, AlwaysSleepy and the Laboratory Maniacs, etc. (Sigi makes some sweet lists), Leptys is incredible, etc. all understand the metagame quite well, and are incredibly adaptive!
4 months ago
Steal Enchantment is really old so the wording is weird. Look it up on the Gatherer. It takes control of enchantments on creatures (sometimes useful) but its great for taking things like indestructible gods or things like Rhystic Study.
Dominus of Fealty can be tricky to cast. 4 and 5 color decks can be rough but you will probably end up putting in a few more 5 color manarocks before you are through. Non-basic lands with only one color will probably be traded out. It is SO annoying to be short a color that i bet you end up replacing the all the colorless lands as well. Even guildgates help out.
4 months ago
I do not have any "draw cards from outside the game cards." Does Steal Enchantment work on all enchantments or just enchantments on another permanent? The wording of the card is a little confusing. I saw Dominus of Fealty and wasn't sure how difficult it would be to cast in a four color deck.
This is my first go at a four color Mana base, and am a little apprehensive as to what to expect.
4 months ago
If you have one of the "draw a card from outside the game" cards you could have a Bringer of the Red Dawn waiting in the wings.
5 months ago
Exil3dbyrd - I don't think he's worth it, or at least not sure what I would swap him for. I'm trying to run as few dead cards as possible, but having a nice clean second combo to fall back on could be good!
Daedalus19876 - Lore Drakkis is interesting but requires more mana/Dockside triggers, since I don't get to cast the card for free like I do with Vadrok, Apex of Thunder. I will probably try it out as a failsafe though.
I'm happiest to steal Rhystic Study or Smothering Tithe with Steal Enchantment, but Legacy's Allure or even a turn one Mystic Remora would be fine as well. Overall it is possibly cutable, I just really like it!
Really appreciate the comments from you both!!