Pattern Recognition #32 - Functional Reprints
Features Opinion Pattern Recognition
berryjon
8 June 2017
6341 views
8 June 2017
6341 views
Hello everyone, and welcome back to Pattern Recognition! I am your host, berryjon, TappedOut.net's resident Old Fogey and general Smart Ass. I write to entertain and educate all of you, and sometimes I'll even mock and deride myself and Magic in general. But such is not always the case.
Today's article was almost killed by a comment from Guftders over in the Iconic Master's discussion thread, but I was able to salvage it by expanding the subject matter. Then, my volunteer editor, Boza, pointed out that my subject was quite controversial, so I wound up switching the order of things to make sure the non-hazardous subject came first.
So, just to confuse you all, let's talk about Functional Reprints.
A Functional Reprint is a case in Magic where you have two cards that are the exact same, except for their names. For example; Barren Glory is a Functional Reprint of The Cheese Stands Alone with the addition of being, you know, legal. Another example would be Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves and Elvish Mystic.
Do you see a pattern emerge yet? Well, if you haven't, go read my article on Bears. And recognize that all those bears - at least within the same colour - are Functional Reprints of each other. They share everything from casting cost to abilities to power / toughness to creature type, except their name.
Now, the obvious question is "why does Wizards do this?"
The answer isn't so obvious.
You may be thinking that the best answer for the existence of these sorts of cards is in the existence of the Commander Format. Well, that is a concern in the current design of the game, but there were Functional Reprints from long before that. Many, in fact.
This is not to say that Commander is ignored. Anything but. When I was writing this article, I asked my brother if I could look at his ElfBall deck (for those not in the know, it's a mono-green Commander deck that uses the tribal synergy of Elves to produce exponential growth). I checked, and yes, he has Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves and Elvish Mystic in there.
So let's address why these sorts of cards are vital to Commander. In my mind, the answer boils down to the concept of consistency. That is, you are able to predict with some degree the nature of the cards that you draw. It's why I'm a huge fan of putting four copies of each card you plan on playing in your deck, unless you have some pressing reason to have less than that.
And in a format where you can only have one copy of any non-basic land in your deck, wouldn't having three cards that are the same be a good thing? It is a good thing, and thus every time there is a reprint of a card that only changes the name, every Commander player knows they now have one more copy of that card to put into their deck, and they enjoy it.
The other major reason is flavor.
Who here, aside from the Old Fogeys like myself, know what Llanowar or Fyndhorn is?
Some of you may even recognize the former from Llanowar Reborn, but that doesn't help now, does it? All it tells you is that Llanowar is a place, and that it's associated with .
(Answer: They are two of the three major forests in the storied history of Dominaria, the other being Yavimaya. There are others, but these were the ones where action took place in and around.)
And Elvish Mystic? Well ... it's an Elf. And he/she/they happen to be Mystic. That's all we know about that creature.
You see, by renaming an existing card, even if it's just for a block, can help with the branding of the set, the internal integrity of the flavor by simply naming something that is already on the print sheet into something that helps make the set more complete, more whole.
Elvish Mystic was printed like it is because it does not have any flavor attached. Llanowar and Fyndhorn elves cannot be reprinted in a non-Dominaria, non-Time Spiral (pour yourself a shot) set ever. If Wizards wants access to this type of effect in other sets, it has to be printed on a neutral flavor card like Elvish Mystic. Design goals for standard sets have changed since then and we are highly unlikely to ever see a 1 mana accelaration dork ever again, but the idea was there.
Here's a little factoid for you. Because the name is (usually) so irrelevant to any given card, it's typically the last thing assigned to it, including the art. Now, this obviously isn't the case all the time, especially with top-down design on Legendary Creatures and Planeswalkers, but when you read through some of the articles on Wizard's website about the design process, you'll see that the name rarely, if ever, comes up. It's usualy some designator like CW01, which stands for Common White Card 01 or some joke name that is just a placeholder.
Like how the card Maro was named as the result of Mark Rosewater signing off on the card, and his signature being used as the card's name by accident.
As a side effect, this means that Wizards can reprint a card and not have their player base go "Aww man, Black Lotus again?" and toss it into the pile with all the other junk rares. It's new! It's unique! It's totally different this time because it's called Blacker Lotus!
But not everything can, or will get a Functional Reprint.
You see, because these are the cards that actually get reprinted, you have to realize that they're the sort of card that has to be able to slot into any set and not draw attention to themselves, except in a passive manner. That means that they tend to stick to the more common cards. When I talked last week about the New World Order, I pointed out that lower rarities implied a simplicity in design, a more easier to understand card that conveyed what it did to even the newest of players.
Like, say, Giant Growth, which is so easy to understand, it has dozens of imitators, but can never get a functional reprint because it would do horrible, horrible things to anyone on the receiving end of a Gx Aggro deck.
In all seriousness, the cards that are more likely to get reprints like this are those that are more utilitarian in nature, and not splashy. Naturalize or Disenchant are more likely to see a name change than Shatterstorm.
Now, another aspect to Functional Reprints that you may have already gleaned from my comments in the past is Colorshifting. This is a turn of phrase made official in Planar Chaos that describes cards that would be a normal functional reprint, except the color identity has changed. Pestilence became Pyrohemia, Serra Angel became Serra Sphinx, Ghost Ship became Malach of the Dawn.
Actually, that's not always the case. You see, color shifting can be used when a card could exist in either color due to the way colors can overlap with each other (as I mentioned when Hybrid Mana). In those cases, the cards can exist side by side in a format, each serving the same purpose, but for different master, and without actually delving into Hybrid Mana for their casting costs. Wrath of God and Damnation being one of the most famouxs examples.
And of course, from the most recent set, Amonkhet, we got Consuming Fervor. A card which actually caused me to do a double-take when I realized that Wizards had reprinted Unstable Mutation in Red.
Color shifting is a way for Wizards to keep a card in the game as the game moves past where that card was first printed. It's most obvious use is to put the card into its proper position in the colour pie, which was the intention back in Planar Chaos. It also serves to even the playing field a little bit, especially when dealing with wider formats like Modern and Commander. Recall when I talked about Bears, how many of those creatures were not Green? A minority, but still there.
Functional Reprints, when combined with colour shifting allow for everyone to share to some degree the same advantages, or rather the same utility that other colours get. Without dipping into artifacts of course. Everyone still gets their special unique and individual cards that makes them unique and individual, but down at the bottom, the same cards can keep coming back, keeping consistency to the game.
But that just leads me into the back half of my article. There are some cards that can never be reprinted. Ever. And I'm not talking about the Power Nine, cards banned to Phyrexia and back for just how game breaking and format warping they are.
No, what sparked this original line of thought was the Reserved List.
History time!
The Reserve List was the result of a very logical and reasonable decision on the part of Wizards of the Coast. You see, back in 1995, Wizards realized they had too many cards, and not enough packs being sold. Also, there was a case of packs from some of the expansion sets being sold out, denying new players a chance to get cards from these sets themselves.
So, someone came up with the idea of packaging the cards from these sets into a new 'set', and selling it as a compilation set. So, Chronicles was born, as a compilation of the previous (and so far only) four expansion sets - Antiquities, Arabian Nights, Legends and The Dark.
Now, on paper, this was a good idea. It made sure that more players would have access to the same pool of cards that older players had, evening the field so to speak.
AND IT WORKED.
Chronicles was a huge success! Enough so, that the set was in print from July 1995 through to December 1996! That's a huge period of time, and it helped bring in more casual players into the game. Already, Wizards had plans for more Compilations sets in the future to help bring in more players.
Now, before I explain how everything went wrong, and Wizard faced one of the largest player-blowbacks in their history, I want to ask you all something. What does the first "C" in "CCG" stand for?
Let me give you a moment, because there are two answers.
The first answer is the wrong one (naturally). It is Customizable. Magic is a Customizable Card Game in that you can build your playing deck - within the rules - based only on what cards you have available to you. You Customize your deck in the manner you desire, rather than working with a fixed set of cards, or having no choice at all.
The other answer, the one which is more important to this discussion, is Collectible. This is a game where you can collect new cards. The cards could have value beyond being in a deck and playing games with them. You didn't have to play with the cards you owned. You could trade them, sell them, etc....
So, here's what went wrong. Wizards started to reprint cards with the intent of making it easier for new players to enter the game. However, with the exception of the cards that tended to induce the most problems in the players, such as Moat, any card could be reprinted.
A card that was the staple of tournaments - City of Brass - got a reprint. Cards that were 'cool' - Nicol Bolas - get a reprint.
And the Collectors threw a hissy fit. That's the only way I can describe the outcry and sheer, unmitigated vitriol directed at Wizards for daring to reprint cards. Which would - and did - lower the value of some of their cards because now anyone could open up a pack of Chronicles and get it, rather than be held hostage to the limits of supply and demand.
Now, Wizards was in a bit of a bind. They needed new players. The game would die without them. They also needed the old players to form a core of dedicated fans to keep the game stable. But there was no way to keep them both happy, was there?
Well, there was. And it was the best of the many possible bad decisions Wizards could have made. Mark Rosewater himself has called the whole debacle one of the things that could have killed Magic - but didn't.
The Reserve(d) List was a promise that Wizards made to their player base. That there would be cards that would not be reprinted in order to keep the supply of them limited, to keep the collectors happy, while at the same time allowing for cards that the Collectors didn't care for (or cared less for) to be reprinted for the benefit of the general player base that would grow and turn over over time.
Now, the List has been modified since then. Back in 2002, it was announced that the Reserved List would stop with Mercadian Masques and the Urza's Block, that cards printed after that time would not be on the list. The second real change was in 2010 when Wizards announced that they were rescinding the Premium policy - that cards on the Reserved List could be reprinted if it was in a "Premium Product", such as the "From the Vault" sets.
Which annoyed me to no end when I realized that meant that Selenia, Dark Angel wouldn't get into From the Vault: Angels.
Did you know, that before the Reserve List was implemented, you could buy a mint condition Black Lotus, Limited Edition Alpha, for about $15.00 US? Nowadays, you're looking at an easy $20,000+ US.
Yeah.
Kinds puts how much sway the Collectors have over the game into perspective, doesn't it?
But to tie the two subjects together, part of the limits placed on the Reserved List is that there can be no Functional Reprints either. And Colour-shifting is banded under that as well. So you won't find a card that would be:
Retsiwtemit
Sorcery
Each player shuffles his or her hand and graveyard into his or her library, then draws seven cards. (Then put Retsiwtemit into its owner's graveyard.)
Because there is a card that is exactly like that on the Reserve List. However, if the casting cost was changed to or , then it would not be a functional reprint, and thus technically not covered under the auspices of the Reserved List. You'd still get players moaning about it regardless.
Except in the case of Blue. It seems to me like half the Mythic Rare cards they get are some new version of Time Walk or Timetwister, and the other half is the latest version of Jace Beleren (whom I hate).
I'm not going to say one way or the other my personal opinion about the nature of the Reserved List. It exists, and its purpose is clear. But Wizards respects their players, and so while the desire to see the Reserved List stay or go is up to the individual, they will keep their word regarding those ancient cards.
And I respect them for that.
Join me next week when I talk about something. I don't know what yet. Maybe I'll eat some pie?
Until then, I'm selling out! Or is that tapping out? Basic donors get a preview copy of the final article, while advanced donors get that as well as the opportunity to join me in a podcast version of the series where I talk and you respond.
The typo is fixed now.
Man, lots of people are fixated on the back half of the article, if the Facebook page is any indication. What, no love for functional reprints? ;)
June 8, 2017 2:26 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #3
Honestly the reserve list is a hotter, more controversial topic than functional reprints imo. It doesn't surprise me that more people are focused on that part of the article.
Personally I like functional reprints. They add a nice dash of flavor for sets.
Personally I hate the reserve list with a passion. I understand why they did it, but I disagree with the basic principle that MTG ever should have been "collectable". I feel like the game would be fine without cards holding value. It's a fun and well-structured game that doesn't need collector value to stand up. And honestly I don't feel like upsetting collectors would even put a dent in their profits. Most, if not all, of the collectors I know don't play the game, they don't buy packs, they buy singles and literally just horde cards to manipulate the supply and demand. The game would be better off without them imo.
I feel like in theory, WotC could reprint every card that's ever existed in massive excess, driving the price of every card in the game into oblivion, and the game would still be fine, if not better off. Hearthstone is perfectly successful and popular, it has none of this card value or reprint issues nonsense, and MTG is a far better game (I know, that's an opinion). It would be fine. I think the growing success of MTGO is evidence enough.
June 8, 2017 3:27 p.m. Edited.
I never thought about the whole flavor issue for functional reprints! That makes me look at my own set of Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, and Elvish Mystic with new appreciation.
I'd like to read about Cascade, the un-sets (were you able to draft them?), or a bit of a history lesson on the "pre-mend" planeswalkers. I looove Freyalise.
June 8, 2017 5:02 p.m.
It's like I said on Facebook. There's nothing wrong with reprinting cards and getting rid of the reserved list. If I'm a collector, you can print a million new black lotus', and you know what? I won't care one bit. Because all those black lotus' have the date 20** on them...which means they'll never have the value of my Alpha edition. That's if I'm a collector. If I'm a price-gouging re-distributor, THEN I'd have an issue with it, because aside from another collector...who's going to want to buy my Black Lotus then!? Still, the best example is this. If I own an original print Amazing Spiderman, and I have the ONLY ONE IN EXISTENCE...should I have the right to say that no one else who loves comics should ever be able to read the story it contains? No. That's why trade books exist, and reprints of old comics are a thing. Because it's about making the product available to as many people as possible. Not about being Gollum and ruining everyone else's fun by hoarding whatever the product is and not allowing anyone else to enjoy it. People may own the cards, but Wizards owns the damn license, and as such, can do whatever they want with it.
June 9, 2017 1:54 a.m.
Winterblast says... #7
I've never understood collectors who don't play the game...If I pay a lot for a top card, it's because I need it for a deck AND maybe want to resell it years later for more, not to have it in a binder and look at it once a week. Of course, having the price drop after buying an expensive card is undesireable, but as Long as the Frame and artwork aren't the same, people will still have preferences and don't necessarily buy the newest and cheapest Version. Just have a look at Berserk, which has a much better artowrk in the old sets...People still pay 4 times as much for that one.
Chronicles cards are also much cheaper than Legends, so in the long term the angry collectors from back then didn't lose anything at all. The preference of black borders that many players have (I rather take white borders for decks in white sleeves though) does much for the price as well. I guess it would have been enough to promise not to reprint cards with the same artwork, border and frame design. Has anyone counted the number of recent Force of Will reprints? The original artwork with old border still sells for 50 euro, like 3 times as much as 10 years ago...
June 9, 2017 4:40 a.m.
SSJ_Weegee says... #8
If they're going to have the reserve list, they should at least ban all cards from it from all formats. That way people who don't have access to them aren't held back from actually playing. I know lots of them are banned, but they need to make it complete, even in legacy.
June 9, 2017 1:55 p.m.
Winterblast says... #9
SSJ_Weegee that's completely ridiculous. I rather pay 200 euro for a moat or underground sea (because they are actually strong cards) than 15 for a rhonas (which is just a beatstick and still IN PRINT), just because it's a standard card and will lose most of its value as soon as the set rotates out of standard.
June 9, 2017 2:37 p.m.
ClockworkSwordfish says... #10
It's kind of misleading to describe Elfball as an EDH deck. The 'Elfball' brand has existed since the 20th century.
June 9, 2017 3:25 p.m.
True, but I wanted an example for EDH and my brothers deck was right there.
June 9, 2017 5:17 p.m.
TheRedGoat says... #12
@ClockworkSwordfish: I've played and consequently lost a lot of games to elf-ramp-centric EDH strategies and the only names I've ever heard those deck types called is either "Elfball" or "Elf Cancer" (because they can be disgusting in how quickly they win the game when built right).
They are more or less a play-group warping type of deck that demands other players build in a manner that can stop them or they just lose. Many other tribal deck types, Slivers especially, are capable of doing this in addition to stax or even combo decks like those built with Leovold, Emissary of Trest or Breya, Etherium Shaper. With the latter options being banned because as opposed to the tribal strategy, they are not stopped dead by one well timed Damnation.
@berryjon: Would you say that cards like Ancient Craving and Ambition's Cost count as functional reprints of Concentrate or Harmonize? If they do, would you think red will ever get a similar card to that specific example?
Also, I figure you're "retwistment" card is a reference to Wheel of Fortune, but how do Wheel of Fate and Magus of the Wheel not break the functional reprint rule? Or am I confused about when some of these were printed?
June 9, 2017 11:48 p.m.
TheRedGoat says... #13
As a side note, I am admittedly one of those people that would just a soon have an infinite supply of every card in existence so as to have all possible decks for every scenario. All of which would be in addition to a functional art gallery of each card.
This game will never truly satisfy people like me, but that is our cross to bear.
June 9, 2017 11:54 p.m.
TheRedGoat: Not really. You see, Black has always had the ability to trade 1 life for 1 card at any other cost - Phyrexian Arena for example. Your examples are also costed at , whereas Blue gets it without the lift gain for . The difference is slight, but it's there.
And no, it's Timetwister spelled backwards. Or at least it should be.
June 10, 2017 12:22 a.m.
TheRedGoat says... #15
I see. So besides I was thinking of the wrong card, some cards don't really need a functional reprint in order to be colorshifted. It wouldn't make sense to have a black draw spell that doesn't require a sacrifice of something, like life or creatures or the like, or in red's case to have some immediacy/cost of its own like with Cathartic Reunion or Act on Impulse right?
Which of course white can never get anything resembling concentrate because of its own aversion to drawing cards as an advantage. It would just as soon have the opposite effect as with Spirit of the Labyrinth and similar cards.
June 10, 2017 12:36 a.m.
TheRedGoat: That's right. When I talked about Card drawing here and here I concluded that White is the color most likely to stall out the board state as their card draw advantage.
Everyone pays for extra cards with something. Blue in terms of mana not spent on other spells, red throws things away to get new cards, black pays life, green gets contingent draws.
June 10, 2017 12:39 a.m.
For the record, Barren Glory is NOT a functional reprint of The Cheese Stands Alone. Barren Glory triggers during your next upkeep, making it strictly worse than The Cheese Stands Alone which triggers as soon as all conditions are met. You can answer Barren Glory with sorcery speed removal, which won't cut it against the big cheese.
June 10, 2017 6:53 p.m.
TheRedGoat: As far as Wheel of Fate and Magus of the Wheel versus Wheel of Fortune, those are just examples of Wizards reworking and trying to make balanced versions of unbalanced, older cards. The Magus cycle in particular is meant to be the effects of older, powerful spells and noncreature permanents stapled to creatures to make them more vulnerable. (Magus of the Moat for Moat, Magus of the Tabernacle for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, etc.)
A functional reprint is an exact reprint of a card, the only difference being the name. Like the article says, Elvish Mystic is a functional reprint of Llanowar Elves. It wouldn't even be a functional reprint if it was, say, an Elf--Soldier instead of Elf--Mystic (though Wizards has said they won't do functional reprints in this fashion either for the Reserved List cards).
June 10, 2017 7:20 p.m.
TheRedGoat says... #19
Actually this article does make me wonder about newer cards like Act on Impulse, in regards to being very color specific in its effect, and whether or they can ever get functional reprints or colorshiftings of their own.
For that specific example it would be easy to believe that we'll never see it colorshifted, but I wonder what kind of conditions would be needed to get a functional reprint of it?
And what about other cards that don't strictly have color specific effects like Krosan Grip or Oblation or even Etherium Sculptor? I could see red getting its own etherium sculptor if we ever return to Kaladesh or Mirrodin. That or worse case red could get Dark Deal right?
June 10, 2017 11:26 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #20
I hate to say it, but magic would die if WOTC reprinted cards into oblivion.
For context, legacy is my favorite format by leaps and bounds - and I will not own it in paper at least until I get out of college, which will be several years. The way I wish to play the game the most is not accessible to me, yet that is something I have to accept.
I don't know how many of you have played other CCGs, but in my younger years I played both Pokemon and Yugioh. Both games have very aggressive slash-and-burn reprinting patterns and an unstable power curve. A top yugioh deck might have a card worth $50 in it. However, within 2-3 months that card will be worth less than $5 and it will never go up in value again. Never. It's not worth getting good cards, and if you don't, then you usually accept losing records consistently. Yugioh has a pattern of making a card super limited in printing (high rarity, only one set) and let it be expensive for a few months. Then they print it in about 3 different special sets in rapid succession killing the price, but at the same time they release the cards that will make up the new best deck so that the card they just made accessible is now obsolete. As a player, that sucks no matter what side of it you're on. And having all the cards be free, like in Hearthstone, will cause players to lose interest very quickly. Hearthstone will be dead with in a year or 2, tops.
There was a very good article on Pucatrade awhile back about why expensive cards in magic may be annoying, but are ultimately necessary for the game's survival. Now, Standard cards I can totally get behind being $10 or less across the board with a decent deck being $40 and a PT winning deck being less than $100. I want reserved list cards as much as the next guy (I'm actually going to be playing legacy with shocklands soon and expect 1-3 finishes at best) but there has to exist some expensive cards for the game to survive.
June 12, 2017 9:40 p.m. Edited.
As soon as I saw Cartouche of Zeal I went, "That's just Hammerhand!"
I had Hammerhand in the first speed deck I built, so I remembered it.
June 13, 2017 10:47 a.m.
Screw the Reserve list & PROVE TO ME MTG WOULD DIE NOW WITHOUT ITS EXISTENCE
It is an outdated concept primarily benefitting a nerdass-collector minority & 3rd party venders: LAISSEZ FAIRRE damnit!
In 1995 when dial-up AOL and a limited cult-following were your primary survey sample I am not surprised that a loudmouthed minority held sway. The demographics of MTG players has likely BLOOMED SIGNIFICANTLY since the time that decision was made. If WOTC is so into its customer base as is constantly claimed I would like to see a new thorough survey conducted on this matter, in the age of a more diverse player demographic & larger internet community input I imagine there would be significantly less support for a couple of loudmouthed misers...I mean just think about the amount of generational MTG players that were without voices in the 90's now you have 30some old parents handing down the game, you have millennials, etc... Alright soapbox all used up
June 14, 2017 11:02 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #23
Gleeock the pucatrade article I linked actually makes a pretty convincing argument as to why MTG would die if cards were reprinted to player satisfaction. I feel downright dirty defending WOTC and the reserved list, but it's simply a fact that standard players come and go month to month, while the true stable player base is in those that are invested in the game - the modern and especially the few legacy players.
However, what would be a good move by wizards is to repeal the promise they made to not reprint reserved list cards as promotional cards either. If reserved list could be promotional cards, then there's actually a chance of making them possible to get and that would keep collectors happy and make players happier.
June 14, 2017 11:23 p.m.
A good litmus test as to the loosening of the Reserved List would be Wizards deciding which cards on the list were the real money-houses, and which were bulk rares caught up in the larger sweep.
Then test the waters by suggesting they can remove the bulk cards from the list.
June 14, 2017 11:33 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #25
That's actually a really good idea.
The reserved list is really a losing scenario for WOTC no matter what they do. If they leave it people will complain about card prices, and if they change it or remove it people will complain about them taking back their word, which they've been doing a lot of recently with pretty poor reception from players.
June 14, 2017 11:51 p.m.
Yes, I will agree to disagree on the pucatrade article really holding that much water. You're talking about comparing direct priced shelf-to-consumer items, which are notoriously unsteadily priced products along with being clothing/retail/fashion industry based, which already have an expected flash-in-the-pan trend pricing to a non fashion set-priced item. Sortof a short term trending contingency plan market to a long-term stable market. Although the article certainly has plenty of merits I do think there is a bit of comparing apples to lampshades there.
Where I think the biggest risk to WOTC would be posed by revoking the list utterly would really be presented from the 3rd party vendors (which they do have very unique programs & relationships with) they would get hit in the wallets potentially, Wizards themselves would likely see no profit change.
But I will meet both comments halfway by saying that a better bit of market research to give a voice to the demographic that was not present when that decision was made could go a long way & something like "loosening the Reserved List" in one of the ways spitballed up above would be better than remaining inflexible about what in my opinion is becoming a debatable topic again.
June 14, 2017 11:56 p.m.
Also, there are still PLENTY of cards in the game that have VERY stable & competitive pricing just off the rarity system & effects of the cards themselves... They are consistently on the upper end of the budget & never have been added to a "reserved list" to synthetically beef up their price even more. The dual lands irk me the most as they call it a "MANA BASE" for a reason, so a group of cards that increase your access to a whole new branch of deckbuilding, significantly increase the ease of multicolor viability, seem like one of the most base/least niche cards of the game are suddenly made into a niche card; I don't expect they would ever be "cheap" but they are really jacked up as they are now. At least easing our access to the mana base would make things a bit more Laissez Fairre - I guess the soapbox was not all used up yet ;)
June 15, 2017 12:11 a.m.
Should Wizards get rid of the reserved list? No. Is the list a bad idea? Yes.
I don't think these cards should be heavily reprinted. But an occasional reprinting every 5 to 10 years to allow people to actually play the game without spending a fortune is a fine idea in my opinion. Especially because when you buy a $20000 black lotus, WotC aren't the ones getting that money. Older cards with different artworks will always retain some amount of value because they are older. But asking a new player to spend $300 on a deck just to be competitive is ludicrous.
All of that being said. Wizards made a promise to their player base that they would not reprint these cards. Going back on their own word is a sure fire way to drive away players. If you can't trust them to keep their promises then there's no reason to invest your money into their game.
So if it's a bad idea to have it and a bad idea to get rid of it what should they do?
1: Nothing, the game is still very successful and while this debate will be around probably forever it's not hugely affecting the player base.
2: Make better versions of the cards. Instead of functional reprints just make cards strictly better than these cards. Problem with that is most of these cards are either broken or near broken already and strictly better versions would destroy all formats where they would be legal.
3: Ban the whole list. As mentioned by someone else, by banning all of them they would no longer be must haves in any format that they're in. Everyone using them would have to replace them with other, reprintable, cards that would allow newer players more access to the formats without going back on their word.
From a business standpoint option A makes the most sense. From a player standpoint option C would make the most sense.
June 15, 2017 1:06 a.m.
Winterblast says... #29
MWorl91 I strongly disagree on the opinion that option C would be best from a player's point of view. Eternal formats are so much fun BECAUSE the legal cards allow absolutely sick and broken plays and also provide similarly effective responses and solutions. Ban the current reserved list and neither vintage nor legacy and most of all commander would be much fun anymore.
If that was about to happen we would either see a lot of people quit playing or the players would simply ignore the banlist and organise local events with a "no reserved list ban" and boycott the official events.
June 15, 2017 2:59 a.m.
They made a promise to THAT player base however many years ago & they were a different entity back then (not even sure if they were a Hasbro subsidiary), things change, demographics change, your customer base expands... So restricting access to a expanding customer base due to a rigid promise made to what I still think may be a minority now (that's why you update your market research & find out who would say "hell yeah" or "hell no") I don't think "players" would leave in droves but I don't have any numbers to tell me one way or the other.
But the theme I keep going after is the RIGIDITY of the thing, even the constitution has some flexibility for cripes sake, and several people have offered some decent alternatives to my favored "laissez fairre" approach & an all out reserve list. Yes, even limited reprint would be favorable, even though I am aware that those sets would get bought up or hoarded by 3rd party resales... That is why you would want to get in to your local distributor & take your shot.
June 15, 2017 10:25 a.m.
I don't think it's particularly fun for a new player to be helpless against so many broken cards and strategies or to have to spend hundreds of dollars just to compete with such cards and strategies.
June 16, 2017 3:23 a.m.
Winterblast says... #32
MWorl91 that's why there are other formats that do not extend as far back in the history of magic. If you cut away the reserved list from legacy for example it's just the same as modern, not worthy of being an extra format. If you do that to vintage and commander you castrate the whole format and ruin the whole thing just because "new players don't have all cards in a CCG". Well, play standard or modern then if you don't have the cards for the other 3 formats that allow older cards.
June 16, 2017 5:06 a.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #33
Winterblast except Standard is garbage right now, and has been for years. That sort of attitude is exactly how you drive players away. "You have to play this game the worst way feasibly possible because we made a shitty promise to greedy collectors way back in the day". seems legit.
June 16, 2017 2:29 p.m.
Winterblast says... #34
Tyrant-Thanatos I'd rather have them reprint the reserved list as promo cards and masterpieces than banning them as MWorl91 suggested. Taking away the old cards from legacy, vintage and commander would ruin those formats completely. They are only cool to play because of the possible actions with these cards, they live and die with the interaction of broken old cards with new cards. The availability of these old cards is for example why cards that are banned in modern are no prproblem in legacy and why cards like Lodestone Golem are restricted in vintage because they are so powerful and in modern no one bothers to even play them.
It's also not the problem of eternal players when people feel that standard sucks at the moment. I don't see why it sucks though, if you have no problem with a low power level (and banning the reserved list would just reduce the power level of eternal formats, so I assume you have no problem with low power and boring, slow play).
June 16, 2017 2:49 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #35
I don't advocate banning the reserve list though. I just feel like "go play standard you peasant" is a garbage excuse. I'd much rather see them reprinted.
June 16, 2017 2:58 p.m.
Winterblast says... #36
Ok then, I thought you shared that opinion. I would also like to have reprints with new artworks, but not at a rarity that a new version would completely ruin the price of the old versions. In a masters set for example would be a good place, or as promo cards, because past reprints have shown that the original cards didn't drop much in price.
The only thing wizards shouldn't do is to reprint everything in a way that already existing versions become completely obsolete except for their looks. Like, if they reprinted something as a normal rare in a standard set, that would surely have a negative effect. Won't happen with the really powerful cards anyway but as an eternal player you want some investment security nevertheless.
June 16, 2017 3:36 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #37
Yup. I just wish they'd actually print Vintage Masters basically. Even just looking at ABUR itself, Alpha/Beta cards always fetch a dramatically higher price. I don't see those getting hit much by reprints. Maybe Unlimited/Revised printings would take a hit, but I still doubt that'd even be a large one.
June 16, 2017 3:50 p.m.
Slow play isn't necessarily boring.
I play a lot of interesting Standard games.
There's no need to bash the entire format, just because you don't enjoy it.
June 16, 2017 4:02 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #39
Argy I apologize if I came off as bashing Standard. I love it as a concept, but I haven't been able to enjoy it in a very long time. (Some 3 years or so) So I've fallen back to Modern, got sick of that, and now play casual kitchen table magic, because the only formats I'm interested in at the moment are locked behind impossible paywalls. It's frustrating.
June 16, 2017 4:07 p.m.
Winterblast says... #40
I've always felt like standard was the most expensive format of all. Not because of the total price of a deck, which is indeed not much, but because of how overpriced the cards are in relation to their power - as long as they are in standard.
For example I considered buying a Torrential Gearhulk for one of my commander decks, because I could use a weaker 2nd Snapcaster Mage...well, the cheapest I could find was over 17 euro, which is absolutely ridiculous for such a card. If someone can afford paying that much for relatively little power, for cards that will lose most of their value when they rotate out of standard, I'd rather buy legacy or commander staples in their place. A playset of that damn gearhulk is more expensive than a FoW, I could even get one of the cheaper duals for that money, a Taiga or Savannah for example...That's why I'd say anyone complaining about how bad standard is should think about how much lasting value you can get for the money spent on overpriced standard cards.
Redace878 says... #1
I found a typo! It says "famour" instead of famous in the paragraph where you talk about Damnation and Wrath of God.
June 8, 2017 12:22 p.m.