Individual Negashard Breakdowns
Custom Cards forum
Posted on May 18, 2010, 3:56 a.m. by Zanven
Currently we've got the following shards :
RB W GR U GW B UW R BU G
I've stripped them of names and flavor to look at them objectively. I don't mean this as an offense to people that have already thought of concepts and flavor to match shards and cooked up concepts, but I wanted to start from scratch and look at what made most sense, and then see if anything that was already created still fit with the colors and concepts.
Currently we've got five shards, each consisting of two ally colors and one enemy color to the both. How I felt this would come out in the wash of a shard composed of this balance would be the ally colors paired up and strengthened by one another, while incorporating the lesser aspect of the remaining enemy color, as it is outnumbered 2:1. Although that color is certainly important and the contrast/conflict of it against its enemy colors while being part of the same whole, I am of the opinion that it should never overpower the primary values of the stronger colors.
For a refresher (and right from Wizards.com) :
White : Order, Protection, Light Blue : Knowledge, Manipulation, Illusion Black : Darkness, Ambition, Death Red : Freedom, Emotion, Impulse Green : Growth, Instinct, Nature
I'll do another article on each shard's nature in a while.
I will be using code-names until we decide on proper names for the shards for sake of convenience (although I'll still put the colors beside them in brackets from time to time). I have decided on Rav guild names with the splashed color as I figure most people are familiar with old guild colors.
EG :
GUB will be "Black Simic" RBW will be "Black Boros" RGU will be "Green Izzet" GWB will be "Green Orzhov" RWU will be "America"
The guild names are NOT a reflection of what the three color shards will be similar to, it is simply for the sake of having convenient nicknames.
Now to contrast them with Alara shards.
I broke all the Shards into two color domains just so you can have idea of how the groupings work.
GW Domain Bant (GWU) Naya (GWR) Green Orzhov (GWB)
BU Domain Grixis (BUR) Esper (BUW) Black Simic (BUG)
RG Domain Jund (RGB) Naya (RGW) Green Izzet (RGU)
RB Domain Grixis (RBU) Jund (RBG) Black Boros (RBW)
UW Domain Esper (UWB) Bant (UWG) America (UWR)
Where-as the Alara shards have double-domain overlaps, Negashards do not. They end up with two Alara-colored shards that they closest match
What this means :
Alara's match-ups were not chosen as to what made the most sense theme wise (i.e. Grixis would really want to invade Naya and Bant the most because they have the most Green and White mana available for delicious life force to eat), but actually color-match ups. Remove a Shard from the two domains that it is in and look at the two shards that are left in those domains; those will be the two shards that it ended up fighting against in the story.
The breakdown :
Esper vs. Grixis and Bant Bant vs. Esper and Naya Naya vs. Bant and Jund Jund vs. Grixis and Naya Grixis vs. Esper and Jund
Using that same method for choosing break-down for color match ups, our breakdown goes like this :
America vs. Black Simic and Green Orzhov Green Orzhov vs. Green Izzet and America Green Izzet vs. Black Boros and Green Orzhov Black Boros vs. Green Izzet and Black Simic Black Simic vs. America and Black Boros
As a side note, the one name that I did love that was already suggested was Irindu for Green Izzet; I felt that name fit the colors perfectly and was memorable. The other names I had a hard time recalling the color they were supposed to be attributed to.
Meld is far to strong to leave in the hands of just the Green Izzet. I've tested this ability and variants of it. It is just to OP.
Again love what you've got so far. Love the name too.
May 18, 2010 7:25 a.m.
If Meld is really strong mechanically, then perhaps it can be like Cascade, where multiple shards each had a few Cascade cards and that it isn't the main keyword to a single one. I know that Jund ended up with the best Cascade over-all, but that's something that we can prevent right now. I prefer Flow over Meld for Green Izzet flavorwise too, so I have no issue spreading out Meld if we keep it. I think the keyword retention process is almost finished, so mistergreen will probably nudge the helm of the ship again and we'll keep on progressing.
May 18, 2010 12:47 p.m.
we may want to save meld for the later sets. so that we use the one keyword per shard rule to define them in the first set.
I always associated RGB with card draw mechanics. so FLow makes allot of sense in that shard.
We should also look at the five legendary dragons due to them in a way representing the five shards previous to this.
Intet, the Dreamer card draw mechanic Numot, the Devastator destruction control Oros, the Avenger non prevented damage Teneb, the Harvester graveyard mechanic Vorosh, the Hunter adding counters
I would also say i kinda want wither in UBG
May 18, 2010 1:22 p.m.
Funny that you mention that, my codenames for these shards were originally the five dragon names.
I agree with pretty much all of them but Oros and Numot. Oros is similar to what we may have with Precision, but I feel that Precision fits betters with America as they are masters of control and exercising that control over others through the use of their enslaved red mana. Black Boros on the other hand, is not so refined (as it is full of war-mongering demons) to fine-tune their damage through a nozzle; they're going to spray it all over the place. However, I do like the non-white aspect of it; I was thinking that Black Boros could have creatures that cause them to gain a life whenever a white creature or spell is played since they're abusing their white mana, or abilities that are strong but only if you can sacrifice a white permanent (i.e. eating angels or clerics for a temporary boost in ability or restorative purposes).
May 18, 2010 1:32 p.m.
also remember white does have a destructive side. Day of Judgment (which is kinda what oros is)
May 18, 2010 1:47 p.m.
I think we should include a BW wrath effect.
Xander for future reference B is black and U is blue.
I am with you in that I think Vorosh (Avora) should have the wither effects.
We need to start getting names for the wedges. I liked some of my original ideas but I think other people could more than probably do better so lets start tossing some around.
The original four were Avora (Vorosh) Irindu (Intet) Sorok (Oros) Oturu (Teneb)
Darkness added Kilgar (Numot).
What do you guys think?
May 19, 2010 7:29 a.m.
mistergreen527 says... #9
Just keep in mind that we don't even know for sure what keywords we will have yet, as the community is currently voting on them. That being said, if you DO want to start planning ahead, these keywords are currently in the lead: Bloodletting/Cleave, Clamp, Flow, Meld, and Render (remember this could change though).
From a community perspective, I think it will be easier for us to build the set one shard at a time. As a head team, we will assign the keywords that win the vote to specific shards. Then, we'll choose the shard that we have the most understanding about, give the community some kind of introduction to the shard (using a vague description similar to Zanven 's), and allow the community to use their creative energy in presenting ideas. We'll combine these ideas to create an actual story and then start building cards for that specific shard (probably starting with the planewalker as that will help us develop the story for that shard even more). Then, once we've gotten a card basis for that shard, we'll move onto the next shard and repeat.
I think that constantly jumping from shard to shard will get confusing and overwhelming to the community as a whole. Keeping focused on one shard at a time allows the community to really hone into the "idea" of that shard.
May 19, 2010 11:18 a.m.
agreed, though. we should pick out spots in the skeleton specificall y for like five to 8 cycles,
Also are we going to have one planeswalker per shard in the first set, or is it the block over all?
and yah sorry about the U vs B thing, i know that but when typing it my brain decides to type B instead =P
Lastly i emailed kaley about it but i had the idea that one of the acctual challenges could be CREATE A PLANESWALKER FOR THE SET. allowing only three max sumbissions per person, and judging on plot cohesion, and mechanics. i dont know though.
ideas for planeswalkers= on of the nega shard dragons (nega-nicol bolas)(personally preferential to intet, or teneb) The planes walker that created the nega shards i liked elspeth being involved merit leige-(my general understanding is that dark depths is the avatar of merit, and he is a god sorcerer.) maybe the geomancer that helped seal the eldrazi, possibly hunting after merit.
May 19, 2010 12:58 p.m.
@TAMA : I've already got a whole thread in the works about naming the shards; I'll post it tonight when I get back from work. There's actually a neat little design method that they used for Alara and I wanted to use an inverse break-down of that.
I was considering to save it for last so that the shard names might reflect the overall feel of what had been designed and cooked up, but I certainly don't mind putting my thread up about the method to go about doing so ahead of time!
May 19, 2010 1:10 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #13
Xander574, you and I seem to be on the same brainwave. I was thinking the same thing about the cycles.
The "create a planeswalker challenge" was exactly what I had in mind when I said that we should probably start with a planeswalker for the first card.
May 19, 2010 1:16 p.m.
I was hoping that people would want to create the planeswalker as well! I really hope people want to make it either the unnamed destroyer of Alara and/or the creator of Sarcoma (they could be the same person, or different persons; potentially even two planeswalkers at war breaking each others creations like angry children).
May 19, 2010 1:22 p.m.
My idea was that Marit Lage attempted to escape the prison of Dark Depths and the Negashards were wedged together to form a trap that would hold Marit Lage on the other side. Its difficult trying to explain planar physics but basically it's like a corridor and the negashards barred of the other side. So the creator of the Negashards was in fact a good planeswalker however in their actions they destroyed another plane. Bolas brings Alara back together in order to release Marit Lage. As for planeswalkers the only thing I'm really after is a Jace type Irindu planeswalker.
May 19, 2010 9:34 p.m.
I like TAMA's idea for a planeswalker story-wise. I think that Marit Lage should also be a card is the second or third set. I also think that she should be eldrazi. It is a tenticled creature that has been trapped by a planeswalker. It travels between planes but is not a planeswalker itself. It has a clear hatred for both blue and red, maybe others.
May 19, 2010 9:51 p.m.
um my general understanding is the big tentacle thing is the avatar of merit leige and not the actual merit leige. the actual being a crazy sorcerer on the lvl of a planeswalker who was worshiped like a god....i may be wrong though
May 19, 2010 9:57 p.m.
true it is an avatar, but avatars are physical manifestations of ethereal beings. Or in this case if the creature (eldrazi or no) is imprisoned, the avatar could be a physical manifestation of its lingering consciousness.
May 19, 2010 10:03 p.m.
To clear up any confusion, this is right from Wizards :
"Hello! Is there a link that explains who/what Marit Lage is? I was under the impression that she was a powerful planeswalker. However, the token art makes her appear as a large Hypnox type of a creature? Thanks! Justin Lancaster, OH
A: From Brady Dommermuth, Magic creative director:
The Argivian scholar Arkol thought Marit Lage was a planeswalker, but he was wrong. Whats known about Marit Lage is that she is a being of immense power, able to move across the planes but not by the same means planeswalkers can. She is not native to Dominaria, and could justifiably be called a demigod. She is mentioned in passing a couple of times in The Eternal Ice, a Magic novel by Jeff Grubb. Its implied that she wreaked havoc on Dominaria at some point, and its clear that she had a human following (see the flavor text of Brine Shaman, Curse of Marit Lage, Wrath of Marit Lage, and Dehydration). One interesting footnote about Marit Lage is that the cards that bear her name penalize blacks allied colors rather than its enemy colors."
If she's punishing her ally colors, then Ms. Lage would seem to fit in the Black/White/Green shard. Oooooh.
May 20, 2010 2:08 a.m.
Let's not give it Render. Black seems good. Eldrazi is a possibility.
May 20, 2010 6:18 a.m.
yep that be an eldrazi if i ever heard of one. giant tentacled being, travels from plane to plane but isnt a planeswalker. "demi god" religious following. wrecks havok and deffinitly GWB
May 20, 2010 1:22 p.m.
Since WotC have stated that Marit Lage is not a planeswalker, I believe a new one should be created from scratch. Also, Eldrazi are too fresh. Try to be a bit more out of the box since you're all trying to create a new set :).
May 20, 2010 1:25 p.m.
No Hate but I don't understand the obsession to create Marit Lage. Personally I wonder if its better left undefined and honestly, if Wizards wants to eventually create their own Marit Lage I'm not sure its wise we go beating them to the punch, and we're going to be left with this unofficial copy.
May 20, 2010 2:02 p.m.
I like the idea of big, extra-planar beings, since the story itself would involve interplanar interactions, but by naming it marit lage it's a bit limiting. I could also see the marit-esque creature with annihilator, but unless we plan on adding more eldrazi (like in ROE), it would seem odd to have a lone eldrazi, especially without any synergy cards like the ones that produce drones.
May 20, 2010 4:06 p.m.
An imprissoned eldrazi would not necessarily have drones yet. That said Yeago has a point lets not get too bogged down in the MArit Lage thing as there are other elements on which to concentrate.
May 20, 2010 4:28 p.m.
Marit Lage is big, scary and impressive but it doesn't need to be in our set. If it does it should probs be mono black since that is what it has been previously. Honeymomo has made the point they are fresh out of the box. In that regard shards aren't to far gone either, that leads me to assume our block is set in the distant future, hence Marit Lage is ok. On that note though we really should get more basics down rather than timmy out with this Eldrazi idea.
May 20, 2010 8:09 p.m.
I've been reading through a lot of the ideas and I am very opposed to having samurai in any of the shards. It just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry. I just can't understand why they would be there.
May 21, 2010 12:18 a.m.
From my perspective samurai just fit the colors red and white (and i guess black as well) because they are very much about ordered violence (if that wording makes sense). It would be kind of weird to have samurai specifically but (correct me if i'm wrong) what they represent fits the colors better than any other creature types that exists.
May 21, 2010 2:40 a.m.
What I'm getting at is that Kamigawa was a Japanese themed set and so samurai and ninja thus fit into the folklore for it. What I can't see is how anyone is supposed to make up flavour/story for a band of code following Japanese men to end up on the negashards.
I believe that flavour wise you can have orderly warriors with a great sense of justice, culture and devoted way of life, but to call them "samurai" would be a very hard stretch for me to make.
I do like the idea that people want to see righteous warriors but let's not bend it too far. The creature type can just be "warrior," "soldier" and "guard" but you can use the story to help convey what they're background is all about.
May 21, 2010 3:06 a.m.
If samurai are swapped for warriors/knights/soldiers, Bushido will need to be changed too. Oddly, there is a similar mechanic for that too; Flanking.
May 21, 2010 3:12 a.m.
There is no guard type, pretty sure they were subbed out for soldiers. Flanking doesn't work as well because of Clamp. However Samurai fit in because of the confusion between good and evil in the madlands and because bushido has synergy with cleave/bloodletting, lifelink and first strike where as flanking does not. Also Bushido is R/B/W where as flanking is predominantly white.
May 21, 2010 7:12 a.m.
Well they would make sense with bushido, but we do not have which keywords are used yet. And flanking was never given as an option. We could alway have a cycle that does something synergistically with other cards without a keyword, like the en-kor cards. That way we can use knights rather than samurai.
May 21, 2010 7:59 a.m.
mistergreen527 says... #34
Also, keep in mind that Bushido is not an "evergreen" keyword.
May 21, 2010 10:16 a.m.
I thought that you all wanted that shard to be ruled by demons in Tyrant system? I think that fits it much better and it also makes sense with the palette (RB oppressing W). Tama you also came up with a great Tyrant for it as well. It's also easier for a story to be written about that and not have to say there was a huge planar rip between this shard and Kamigawa because that is not good writing. There would also be no reason for samurai to sit around with a bunch of demons. You could say they're "corrupted samurai" or "demon samurai" but then it gets super cheesy. Samurai also don't work with the tri-colour palette based on their way of life and beliefs. Don't get me wrong, I like samurai, but I don't like it for what you're trying to work out here. The introduction of samurai also needs the introduction of ninjas and that just brings out a new ball of wax.
I think everyone is too focused on wanting "samurai" instead of what is good for the story and works for it. I love all the other ideas hashed out but I just can't see samurai being written in out of no where. If you want to use a "bushido" key word I would be fine with that, even if you wanted to rename it, but really I haven't seen anyone make a board just to hash out mechanics i.e. "We need X 2/2 creatures, a 2/3 flyer for 2 for this shard" and etc.
May 21, 2010 12:49 p.m.
i'm really not on either side. (though i do love samurai)(not the card class but in general) But
Argument for how samurai are around.
My general understanding of what we have so far plot wise is that "Arala" is a manufactured plane, and generally manufactured planes Dont have there own evolved original life but allot of life borrowed from other planes or ripped from other planes during its creation. (The reason mirodin isnt covered with Robots, but has goblins, elves, etc.)(Also why slivers where able to make the return they did.) So it would be easy to say that they where ripped from kamigawa during the creation of "Arala" and have evolved from there. (given what would be there own plane we could definitely evolve them due to them being able to "safely" create there own society without worrying about Spirit dragons and ninjas...)
Now mind you i really am not a fan of bushido. and would rather use one of our new keywords. Bushido isnt evergreen and we didn't put it up for voting. look at it as if due to The separation they evolved there own martial arts techniques (maybe cleave, or precision). Maybe two of the lords (maybe two legendary brother master samurai that have lived as long as the samurai have been on the shard having the ability bushido but not the keyword. That way we would have the ability to combine it with cleave, lifelink, precision, first strike etc. Without having to use the keyword.
also Imagine samurai fighting goblin aristocrats. It would be hilarious.
Oh also just to point it out, we can make up our own creature classes, just cause wizrds hasnt made one doesnt mean we shouldn't make our own. Though we dont want to go to crazy.
May 21, 2010 12:54 p.m.
oh lasty RBW should get the rare board sweep of the set.
May 21, 2010 12:55 p.m.
I agree that samurai maybe should be out. Tyrants were not a bad idea either, but I have a different idea that I have been working on that really seems to fit the colors and the story of the shards separating after a while. These colors will be a group of beings (Human, demon, angel) that wish to bring an end to their torment and suffering through the end of the world (their plane). These are not disorganized people they are repentant creatures that feel that everything on the plane is suffering and that it is their noble mission to make it all end so that it will be reborn.
May 21, 2010 1:01 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #39
I also don't particularly care either way on the Samurai front. However, to play devil's advocate, a plane that is created may take creature types from other planes and these creature types may evolve on their new plane. However, when I think of evolution, I think of races, not classes. Samurai is a class. It doesn't quite make sense to me why they would continue to exist outside of their original society.
May 21, 2010 1:07 p.m.
Wow Squire! I really like the sound of that! It seems like they could be like a cult or demonic procession.
It would be easy to include a Tyrant as well but more along the lines of someone in charge has to be brainwashing everyone to think in this manner? I'm just throwing out ideas and trying to keep some that were already given.
We can tie it into Zanven's idea of the world disappears after and maybe have them succeed and destroy everything. The sad part will be that there is nothing reborn after that?
I dunno, I like where your going~ Maybe do a quick rough draft and post it up?
May 21, 2010 1:09 p.m.
(im pretty much just playing devils advocate at this point but) If you stripped a bunch of americans out of america and put it on a strange planet. They would still be americans, Even more so probably due to the fact that claiming as much and following the ideals of the "american way" would be one of the few reminders of home. Maybe making them cook hotdogs, and sing the national anthem, as a religious situation. (Similar to how many immagrants to the united states latch on to there respective relgions/cultures, even in the face of ridicule because it remind them of home.
Also your argument for that if we have samurai we would need ninja, Makes absolutely no sense.
Lastly BEFORE we even start to say oh we neeed a 2/3 flyer in this set. We need to first decided on the deffinitive keywords we are using for the set. Then we need to decided on the Deffinitive plot lines for each of the shards, so that we know which shard would acctually get flying. (though i would asume the white/blue/red would deffinitly have some flying since both white and blue fly. so do dragons) Thats what we are doing right now. IN a formal outline of what we maybe should do
1)find general idea for set (done-negashards) 2) work out themes of set a)what keywords we are going to use b)what is the setting of each shard. i)what classes are in this shard ii)what is the backstory of this shard 3) associate all keywords planned on using with each shard inclduing the evergreen ones (due to the fact that we are doing the nega shards, we have made our lives the most difficult here since we have more freedom in what keywords go where. Which color needs reach cause it doesnt have flying, Which color is graveyard related, which color has counters/bounce, Burn, Destruction, Remove from game, instant buff, protection, board swipe, life drain etc.) 4) Figure out the basic skeleton for Commons. These being the simplest and easiest. showing a preview of what the set can do at its very basic lvl 5)figuring out uncommons-This is easier then rares, but allows us to really show what the keywords can do in this set at a balanced lvl. Some cool combos would be put here. 6) Rares, this is where we would be able to be the most creative(well mythic but there are more rares) this is where we can 1) use our own keywords to there best ability. and 2) put in all those keywords we never got to use. (yay for infection zombie lord) 3) create cool and interesting abilities for our cards 7)the mythic rares. well this is where we have the freedom to go a little crazy haha. I mean we dont want anything too broken. (though there is an arguement that both baneslayer angel, and jace are a little broken =) )
May 21, 2010 1:35 p.m.
This is also where planeswalkers are classically (i think it would be kinda interesting to create a uncommon planeswalker with only one or two abilities, but thats a whole other conversation) But it may be poinient to do planeswalkers earlier on. Seeing that They are everyones favorite. Also they are normally very important to the plot and setting which has to do with the earlier steps, and could help us direct where teh set it going. Normally hte first set has three-four, the second (if small has one) and the last has really any amount. We would also want to have one per shard by the end of it all. I think there is a plan to have a CREATE YOUR OWN PLANESWALKER contest but we need the whole set layout during steps 1-3 first.
May 21, 2010 1:35 p.m.
2.b.i and 2.b.ii are pretty much what I am working on currently. I will be slapping together a rough draft and posting tonight.
May 21, 2010 1:41 p.m.
I like where Squire is going in regards the Shard. I want to see the rough draft he posts tonight. I think it works better for the palette and should be prioritized since he is on the creative team. We can make input on it later tonight. I think he's come up with a workable plot that also gives reason to oppose other shards with their mission to impose and make an end to everything.
May 21, 2010 2:13 p.m.
As for 2a,3,4,5,6,7 those are all up to you mechanics guys :). A lot of it can be worked on right now thanks to Mr. Green and the skeleton he posted. Based off his one can be created for each of the shards.
As for a planeswalker(Hahahaha I'm only kidding around tho):
Drag Ashen (anagram for Negashard) (3)WBR
+1 Put a 1/1 red black demon token into play. -3 Target creature gets 4 +1/+1 counters. -8 Target creature and target player take 10 damage. (5 loyalty)
May 21, 2010 2:22 p.m.
wou yin (you win with the words switchded) planeswalker
+1 target player cant win the game -3 target player loses the game -7 you win the game (6 loyalty)
May 21, 2010 3:10 p.m.
Because we are basing it off shards, then we need to have a core colour per wedge. I think the core colours should be the enemy colour in each wedge. See http://tappedout.net/media/concept-cards/tama-links-of-the-planes.jpgLinks of the Planes.
May 22, 2010 11:17 p.m.
Let's not make planeswalkers either and leave that up to the community.
May 22, 2010 11:18 p.m.
Sorry to triple post. In future I'll try and make it more concise.
The tyrant type was supposed to coincide with Cleave/Bloodletting. If it had Cleave it was a Tyrant.
The planes can't hold together after they split the mana colours of the separated wedges would destroy each other, especially if the dominant colour is the enemy colour. This works really well with the idea that the plane was created to either trap a resident evil (Marit Lage) or to destroy Alara. Hence the reforming of Alara destroys this plane. Think Magnets.
Scratch the Samurai
May 22, 2010 11:43 p.m.
i like the idea of the nega shards being created with the mana stolen from alara.
Zanven says... #2
For another contrast as well, three shards had key words, one had a theme, and the other was simply strongly built.
Alara :
Grixis had Unearth Bant had Exalted Jund had Devour Esper had artifact-creatures Naya had no keyword, but a strong offering of static abilities
To contrast, Sarcoma :
Black Simic : Potentially some kind of zombie ability, infectious poison. America : Super control = unpreventable, potentially unpreventable damage ala precision. Green Izzet : Rampant growth and focused abilities = similar to cascade potentially, flowing/melding abilities. Green Orzhov : tokens and counter-gaining creatures Black Boros : Strong offering of static abilities like death-touch, vigilance, lifelink, etc.
May 18, 2010 4:30 a.m.