Design Team and Creative Team.
Custom Cards forum
Posted on May 14, 2010, 2:15 a.m. by Zanven
I know mistergreen had mentioned doing this via two teams, design for mechanics, and creative for flavor, so I wanted to see where everyone stood. I know it is very tempting to kind of stay silent on what team you want to go into and try to do both, since it is nice to do the mechanics for a particular card that you had a certain flavor or idea already cooked up.
However, I just wanted to push it through a bit and take an informal poll to see who wanted to go where and which team needed more support. Please weigh in.
I can handle doing the creative side solo, since mechanics do require a lot more work and testing. Three designers and one flavor/theme person sounds fine to me. This way I could work specifically on the story and have everyone say "Yes, I like it" or "No, I don't like it" and keep working on it while everyone else gets the mechanics and balancing straight.
However, I will state right now that I think a lot of the flavor and classes that were set up as a rough outline from the start don't make a lot of sense and I'd be happy to offer a revised edition for the sake of cohesion.
May 14, 2010 12:16 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #4
That seems fair to me. For now, assume that you're the only one on the creative team, unless someone expresses to me differently.
Here's the game plan I have cooking. I first want to figure out which keywords we're using. Then, the creative team (currently only Zanven will figure out which keywords belong to which shard. This will help the design team with attaching keywords to colors. Deciding this may be best if done through community discussion. Then, I think we should focus on one shard at a time. The design team will work on cards for that shard, while the creative team works on storyline (both done with help from the community). I just want to make it clear that no challenges or idea suggestions should be asked from the community unless it's through me. This process needs to go relatively slowly and we can't have four people making separate forum posts all over the place on set creation.
So, Zanven , go ahead and start brainstorming some ideas creative-wise, but let's first focus on finding out what keywords we're going to use.
May 14, 2010 12:47 p.m.
i know we are voting right now on the keywords, but should we asked the greater tapped out comunnity for a vote on which ones they like also? (not for submisions specifically a vote)
May 14, 2010 1:03 p.m.
Well, I think we can decide internally on the core keywords but if we're a hung jury on one or two that are potentially ties, it could be fun to ask the community as like a swing vote and so they feel involved. But we're not really there yet so I'm not too worried about it.
May 14, 2010 1:06 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #7
We will. First, I just want to throw out the ones that we have no interest in using and lock-in the ones that we definitely want to use. This will help give the community a little more guidance. Once we get input from TAMA, I'll post something describing what our plan of action has been and to have the community decide on the middle ground.
May 14, 2010 1:07 p.m.
I personally would love to be on both teams, but hey. I will post the matters in regards to keywords on the keywords thread.
May 16, 2010 5:54 a.m.
mistergreen527 says... #9
We have two new members to our team. I_Call_BS will be joining the Design Team and squire1 will be joining the Creative Team.
May 19, 2010 10:58 a.m.
Welcome to the team, guys!
I'm going to be at work all day per usual, so I won't be able to offer instantaneous feedback on anything cooked up.
@Squire1 : If you really want something to sink your teeth into that we still need to tackle on the Creative Team, there is picking appropriate creature types for each shard as well as the visual design style of each shard (military, gothic, fantasy, industrial, etc). I haven't even touched those yet and that's going to be a lot of work. Obviously feel free to do whatever you want creatively, I just figured I'd mention an area that I've been completely neglecting as I'm a little busy.
You can also get ahold of me via email/MSN if you are up at strange hours and prefer instantaneous conversation at [email protected]
May 19, 2010 1:19 p.m.
I will get on that. I will probably throw some brainstormed stuff before I go too far here. BTW does anyone know of a master list of current creature types.
May 19, 2010 2 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #12
The comprehensive rulebook lists all of the creature types:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=magic/rules
May 19, 2010 2:18 p.m.
I have gone through th current list of creature types and have started to narrow it down a bit as to what would go where. I am now going to work on taking those creature types and building societies around them, hierarchical structures if there are any and then the environments that would be conducive to this behavior.
May 19, 2010 9:54 p.m.
Keep in mind squire that the mana on any given wedge is two allied colours supressing a semi- dormant third colour. The structured societies seem difficult to imagine when there is so much conflict between the mana of the landscape itself. I think the RUW could easily have one and probably the RGU (no matter how mad it might seem) but the pure white mana being supressed by the burn of BR just seems to chaotic to have any sort of stable hierarchical structure. The GUB idea was originally something similar to Pandora from Avatar crossed with the anaconda ridden parts of the amazon so I am not seeing it there either. The BWG (although the shaman idea is in debate) could possible be the most stable of them all with the proposed thicketblend council having only recently been brought into times of peril.
May 19, 2010 10:01 p.m.
Agreed TAMA. I was thinking the different sociological structures that exist, not so much as structured societies as these are different. Even within chaotic environments with chaotic beings there are interactions and groups. The structure of those groups is what I wanted to delve into.
May 19, 2010 10:09 p.m.
Kilgar- all I have gleaned from many of the posts is that these types of creature may be present. Goblin, Citizen, aristocrat (not a current subtype), knight, Minotaur, Griffin
Sorok - I figure that these will be the main players: Human,Samurai,Angel,Phoenix (between red, flying and graveplay it fit),Rogue
Oturo - Elf,Zombie, mutant
Avora - Kind of a nature attack and all things that are poisonous or decaying:
Frog,Fungus,Crocodile,Lizard,Leech,Insect,Ooze,Slug,Serpent,Salamander,Snake,Spider,Scorpion
Irindu- not really sure here yet I have to really look at cands and think, wizards are the only main thing that come to mind, maybe a new type
May 19, 2010 10:18 p.m.
I had the same for Kilgar.
Sorok I also had Demon and Tyrant (a new type specifically those with cleave).
Oturu I had more Centaur, Treefolk, Elf
Avora got the Mutants and the Zombies plus the rest.
Irindu I had elementals, Viashino, Wizards, Berserkers splashing Faeries and Elves. You have to remember this was pre-lorwyn when Faeries were U/G.
May 19, 2010 10:24 p.m.
I had mutants and zombies in Oturo because "Whilst the Thicketblend council try and maintain order between the new, young reckless necromantic Tarani Tribe and the older traditional conservative Gladeparter tribe" from an ealier post by Xander. I went with the necromantic crazy experimentation point of view.
Sorok said something about being repentant creatures, that is why I had fallen angels and rogues in there, though tyrant works there too.
Irindu - I like the elementals idea, that would work well with the wizards, maybe faeries. Not sure I am ready for more of those.
May 19, 2010 10:42 p.m.
Yeah the Oturu thing was something Xander was quoting me on. Experimental in the sense of the necromancy not as in Izzet/Simic experimental. The zombies fit in Oturu but the mutants are something more Irindu/Avora.
Sorok also had repentant demons e.g. cavora,-arisen-teshuva (admittedly due to my own mistype it came up Cavore and I think I like that name better so probs gonna be changed).
Irindu Faeries are very different to Lorwyn faeries e.g. (for a later set) http://tappedout.net/media/concept-cards/tama-tumbling-sprite.jpgTumbling Sprite. They aren't OP control flying beat sticks. They are pesky fliers that can be cantrips in various different ways.
May 19, 2010 10:58 p.m.
TAMA, what are you using to create your images for those concept cards? It looks fantastic, and if it's a program/template, I'd love to know what it is to see if everyone can use the same thing so concept cards turn out cohesive. If it's just mad photoshop skills, that's also cool but I won't be able to duplicate them!
May 20, 2010 3:24 a.m.
Magic Set editor. Its a free downloadable program. Admittedly once I create the card I have to put a picture into them and then fiddle with them on photoshop a bit but I can write an article giving instructions on how to use photo shop to do so.
May 20, 2010 6:24 a.m.
mistergreen527 says... #22
Aaaaand, we welcome another person to the Creative Team: honeymomo!
May 20, 2010 12:48 p.m.
l0ki requested to be on the creative team down the track. He wanted to be more involved with the flavoured text.
May 20, 2010 8:10 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #26
Can you have l0ki shoot me an email?
Also, for those that have and/or plan on using the Magic Set Editor, I have the entire skeleton created. If anyone is interested in having, let me know and I'll send it to you via email.
May 21, 2010 10:51 a.m.
i originally thought i was on the design team, but according to the challenge im not. Whats the word?
May 26, 2010 6:21 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #29
Oops, my bad. That was just a mess up on my part. Xander574, you ARE on the Design Team. I've edited the article to reflect this.
May 26, 2010 7:14 p.m.
okay design team, for judging the planeswalkers i say we each judge each submision using the scale provided in the challenge. Then we will add each of our scores together (with a possible maximum of 90 points) and the highest scored one will be the one we pick. So for now i guess we wait till submission time is over, just incase there are some changes. then once we get a definitive list of submisions we will each go through them and rate the, Then combine the scores to see who won.
May 26, 2010 8:41 p.m.
This works except for submissions by anyone of us. For this reason I say we average the scores and apply a basic form of scaling for entries by us.
May 27, 2010 10:02 a.m.
mistergreen527 says... #33
I didn't think that anyone one the design team would be submitting entries, so I didn't account for that. For a solution, the three people that judges cards submitted by Design Team members could be the other two members and either myself or yeaGO! (if he wants to).
May 27, 2010 10:17 a.m.
yah i asumed to be impartial that the design team wouldnt be submitting...
May 27, 2010 12:05 p.m.
When I was originally partnered up with Darkness I also assumed being at the head of the team meant I would be impartial and not post. I was told that I was only heading the team not being an impartial judge and jury given the powers of chop and shop but not to create.
I think we need to take the best bits of the submissions and get the community to vote on which abilities they want and we put in the loyalty costs because face it every one Timmy's out when it comes to making your own planeswalker. It is just so broken or so under powered or to silly for anyone to take seriously.
May 27, 2010 9:31 p.m.
i meen i say we let them create planeswalkers, We look at them. If none of them are balanced/usable. Then we chop shop.
May 27, 2010 9:53 p.m.
I agree with Tama. Since they've already been submitted we should pick either the top abilities or planeswalkers, then post for adjustment. Otherwise it's not much of a compromise and just one person's dream card.
May 27, 2010 10:31 p.m.
mistergreen527 says... #38
I feel like I owe an apology to the Design Team. My original thoughts were that I wanted you guys to focus on the skeleton. I figured it was a big project, so I wanted you guys to have adequate time to work on it (by the way, you're doing great). So, I decided to take control of the planeswalker challenge and not have your deadline due until next week. However, in retrospect, this wasn't fair, especially since I was expecting you guys to judge the challenge without you giving input on the criteria. I'm sorry.
If possible, however, I would like to stay with the presented plan of choosing one winning card. I already feel bad about putting a hold on Meld when the community voted it in, and I don't want to keep changing what we say is going to happen. Consistency between what we tell the community will happen and what we actually do is key. The Head Team also needs to look like a relatively cohesive unit. So, I hope we can agree to use the scoring system I described in the article this one time. In return, I'll be sure to get input from you guys before any other challenge. Deal?
May 28, 2010 1:50 a.m.
i can at least see one or two ideas that arent that broken and could be fun. Also i feel like when it comes down to it, whatever wins, we have the right to mess with any number on the card. INcluding starting loyalty. Casting cost. and the amount added/taken away for its abilities. i feel like we can balance a card pretty easily if we only change those things. (worse case senario..who knows maybe someone will come up with a fun, balanced, and thematic card)
May 28, 2010 2:14 a.m.
I think whatever the community comes up with, the Design team will be able to balance, and the Creative team will be able to justify in-world.
May 28, 2010 3:55 a.m.
You made the right choice on Meld Mr. Green. I don't think we will have a winning card as such but perhaps winning ideas that can combine to be a good card.
May 29, 2010 9:57 a.m.
I think that a winning card should be decided, but the casting costs, ability costs and starting loyalty. That said, these are design team decisions which is not my realm
May 29, 2010 12:21 p.m.
I have a proposition. After looking through all the submissions, there aren't any that are particularly standout. We can pick the top, say, 3-5 planeswalkers and post them with our critiques. We point out both strong and weak points, and why, as well as some suggestions for fixes. Community members can then agree with our thoughts, disagree with our thoughts, or post thoughts of their own. They would cast a vote for a single PW, as well as proposed edits to that planeswalker. We then examine all the posts and votes, find out the one most voted for and then try to balance that one using the proposed changes. This might be a bit complicated and slow the process, but it keeps the community involved, rather than us completely altering a card so it is very dissimilar to the original submission. I don't feel like any of the cards would be solid with only minor edits by us, and to stay true to the community I feel this is necessary.
May 31, 2010 10:17 p.m.
This is true. I was going to wait to see all the submissions before making any judgments but it is quite obvious that all the planeswalker submissions are broken, underpowered, dull or totally in the wrong league of either design or flavour in some way shape or form. The only ranked ones that are fun are OP, the only ranked ones that are balanced are boring and the only ones that are in the right county of flavour are either capable of warping the entire game or so Under powered they might as well be an Uncommon.
We seriously need to chop and change the planeswalkers. We should first make a new table with the highest ranked planeswalkers and see what edits could perhaps be made and then present it to the community for further voting.
June 1, 2010 3:17 a.m.
I really really like the look of Yvet so far, Planeswaler wise. I'm really excited to see how it'll be judged. I think it would fit in great flavour wise too. It just needs a bit of modifications maybe.
June 1, 2010 3:20 a.m.
I almost want to say just to take our favorite three abilities, and then use our favorite name. Balance the numbers and say thats the winner.
June 1, 2010 1:44 p.m.
We have to be careful not to betray the community too, you know?
I say don't concentrate too too much on the moves being set in stone but maybe pick a contest winner that provided fairly balanced moves as well as a decent character and then say "Hey, we loved this, but to balance it with our mechanics do you mind if we can take it and change a bit of the wording here?"
Or announce the winner and after a while say that it was too powerful in playtesting and then suggest some improvements and see if they'll agree to them :).
I dunno I just thought that if we were in their place and there was a coup d'etat like that with combined moves, wouldn't we feel shafted?
June 1, 2010 2 p.m.
Exactly. I feel that anything we'd do without the community would be assuming too much control. Whatever we do should not involve our favorites, but rather the community's.
mistergreen527 says... #2
Here's where everyone stands from the information I've been given:
mistergreen527: Out of the two, I would prefer the design team, but I am more concerned with ensuring that BOTH teams are working together and moving forward (playing more of a moderator role).
TAMA: Wants to be on the design team.
Xander574: Originally didn't care which team, now would prefer to be on the design team.
Zanven : Doesn't care which team.
Darkness1835: I have received no communication from him showing a desire to be part of the project.
KrazyCaley: I have received no communication from him showing a desire to be part of the project.
yeaGO!: Will observe, but not participate in project.
May 14, 2010 11:56 a.m.