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I think the real point is, crstisalie there was 100% no reason for you to interject and dredge up what was already settled, while everyone was trying to move on. A user is back, and able to comment - let's welcome that. You may think you have your excuses and your reasons and that they're totally justifiable, but the fact of the matter is this comment in its entirety:
"I'm just gonna say that if you were legit unbanned, especially with the way you interacted with people on this thread, then this thread will eventually just continue to devolve into personal attacks, condescending remarks, and other forms of toxic rhetoric that isn't useful in serious/healthy discussions about the format."
Wasn't needed. It comes across as still being bitter from the ordeal, it feels like you just couldn't move on and felt the need to bring up old wounds for what can only be determined as your own personal satisfaction.
This doesn't help the thread, it doesn't fall in line with what thegigibeast blatantly expressed, and it does come across as unnecessary and completely detrimental to this thread. Please don't reply to this, do not continue this discussion, just comply, acknowledge and move on so we do not get pages more of this shit. It's tiring.
For everyone else below this post
Let's forgive/forget this exchange entirely, and move on. We had a few days of generally good discussion, I would like to keep it that way, and I'm sure others agree.
January 17, 2019 3:52 p.m.
Judith infect looks amusing.
And Nekusar's Infectious Pizza Delivery was a treat to pilot (Winds of Change, Fork, Tainted Strike). But yes, definitely not tier 1 material.
January 16, 2019 10:59 a.m.
"My gitrog deck doesn't have Bazaar of Baghdad, it's not 100% cedh"
January 16, 2019 10:20 a.m.
I too splurged on Beta versions of unnessary things like Dark Ritual, Llanowar Elves and Wild Growth, and got two EURO basics for the froggyboi. Because reasons.
January 15, 2019 10:59 p.m.
I don’t think Gitrog did either, but I think that user was saying his cedh playgroup and it’s not uncommon for playgroups to just not pay attention to rule changes. I have a core group of friends in Toronto who were up to date, and simultaneously had friends in London, Ontario who had no idea.
Also for Gitrog 30 lands seems super low. 34-36 is enough of a percentage to increase those extra draw triggers from Dredging. Since it only runs like anywhere from 4 badics or 5 if you’re not on the Tainted Pact version, that landcount also gives us a wider array of utility.
January 15, 2019 6:19 p.m.
“I don't think either of us were suggesting you run Dosan?”
You missed the point completely. Or just deliberately chose not to see it. The point is, Dosan is a good card, with a desireable effect. But because I wouldn’t choose to run it doesn’t mean it is now suddenly a shit card. This is entirely your admitted modus operandi for evaluating cards, and if you don’t apply this “it’s either good or it’s shit” metric to every card that’s used in the format, then it’s a wildly inconsistent metric to use and there’s really not much else to say. That’s why I tend to steer clear from being so black and white.
“That definitely was context”
Yep, it was a context that establishes how you seem to rank things from 1 then 10, skipping the numbers in between.
“That's not very much, if you ask me.”
It doesn’t have to be in every deck to be a good card. Again, that’s a very binary train of thought; just because every deck doesn’t run LED doesn’t make LED a shit card, and that’s precisely the argument you’re presenting here. And before it’s twisted or taken out of context, I’m in no way suggesting LED is remotely close to being on the same level as Command Becon, but the analogy is consistent with the argument at hand, which are the following two contentions you’ve made, that I disagree with:
it’s either good or it’s shit
if it’s not in the majority of the decks, it’s bad
January 14, 2019 8:51 p.m.
“If it's not good enough for all but 1 cEDH deck, it is bad. Bad is a relative term. It requires context and that is the context.”
That isn’t context for how a card is bad, as a whole. The only context that sheds light on is your black and white assessment of this card in general, and like I said before, this line of thought is a slippery slope and a bit of a non sequitor to conclude a card is garbage because fewer decks see the reason to run it. There’s a smarter way of deducing why a card isn’t needed other than being so reductionist and so binary as to say “it’s either good or it’s shit.”
Speaking of Dosan, I would sooner use him as a bookmark than one of the 99 in the Gitrog Monster. It is a perfect example of a good card with an effect I’d neither need nor want to waste more than a slot for. Gitrog already runs City of Solitude, that’s sufficient enough. Owning a creature version of City of Solitude is a much less desirable effect in the Gitrog Monster than a land that can actually be used to accelerate a gameplan as it effectivey cost-reduces your commander and frees up additional resources.
January 14, 2019 8:07 p.m.
Ohhhhh I understand you now! Yes in that sense it’s not unlike another utility land that makes colourless.
And I’m not really inflating it as a card moreso than I’m seeing people minimize it, like calling it garbage when I feel that’s rather harsh and there are a myriad of other cards printed in MTG more deserving of that descriptor, than one that actually has a relevant format-specific function. And if it’s coming across as me inflating it then I do apologize, that wasn’t my intention. I’m evaluating it as the card is written, that was all. It’s use in Gitrog (or any lands matter deck) is self-explanatory, but there’s a logical reason why it’s not preferred in other decks compared to staple cards of a cedh landbase, and it’s not because it is a “garbage” card, and that’s really my only point I wanted to make (that and explain why Prossh wouldn’t need it and Gitrog would). I’m not trying to say the card is insane, or has incredible value, but it’s especially important in games where you are hated out to oblivion and having the option of bouncing Gitrog from the CZ to hand makes a difference as that extra two (minimum) mana you would have used can be used for an enabler, a ritual effect, or Savage Summoning to make sure you can’t be countered. And those are very real, practical scenarios that justify the need of such a utility.
January 14, 2019 6:58 p.m.
Similarly Soren, not being needed in a deck doesn’t make it a bad card, either.
Sure, Gitrog has a unique position in that it benefits from a land entering the graveyard. Being able to “cheat” your Commander while evading tax isn’t mutually exclusive to Gitrog, it’s just one of the few where it really matters. And no, Synergy, I do not think Ifnir Deadlands is a necessary land in Gitrog and certainly not a replacement to Command Beacon. Command Beacon also isn’t used because it’s a colourless land, there’s a reason Scorched Ruins isn’t played. The counters on Ifnir business is irrelevant, and it’s a painland when we have Cabal Pit which has a relevant mechanic, and Llanowar Wastes City of Brass and Mana Confluence which are just strictly better painlands. The fact that it’s not “impacted” in your opinion doesn’t refute the claim the deck would be deliberately built wrong by not including it, because there’s no justifiable reason not to run it in Gitrog, other than playing devil’s advocate. The purpose of this thread is to make and promote decks built as competitively as possible. It’s largey been common knowledge that Command Beacon is just a no brainer for the Gitrog Monster, as it is in 100% of the examples of the most competitively built decks. Going against the grain, just to say you’re going against the grain, isn’t a counterpoint. So again, I do not think there’s a discussion to be had by saying you could replace it and the deck functions the same - no one is arguing that, and nothing is to be gained from making that argument.
Soren - It’s a dangerous line of thought to conclude that because other decks don’t or can’t run it, that it must mean a card is “garbage” which was your original descriptor.
Let’s evaluate the card based on its printed text alone - you can evade commander tax once, or provide colourless mana in the interim. There’s nothing inherently garbage about that. You’re down a land, but the core philosophy behind it is that you’re at the stage in a game where you need to be able to recast the commander for its original CMC, instead of spending the extra two per tax. It’s incredibly appealing as a utility land.
From a purely cedh perspective, I get that it’s not needed or not feasible in most. Typical CEDH lands run a tight 28-32 land count, and there are restrictions within. In any multicoloured deck, you’re running most if not all 8-10 fetches. You’re also running anywhere from 1-10 ABUR dual lands, and a mixture of utility lands, shock lands, basics and the like. There’s a mathematical reason that it’s not deserving enough of a slot in all dexks, and that’s because a large percentage of your finite resources are pretty much dedicated, and have little in the way of wiggle room. It’s also not functionally needed in commanders that use Food Chain, or decks that merely abuse the colour identity and have no business in interacting with the commander, or decks where commander tax is just inconsequential.
But saying something’s not needed or can’t fit a such a tight landbase isn’t the same as saying the card is bad, or garbage. To me, that’s saying the effect isn’t worth the cost, and I think that would be incorrect if you’re to just assess the card on its own. It’s the only land of its kind to interact with the Command Zone and hand specifically, and the difference it can make is potentially game ending.
Rhystic Cave would be an example I can think of that I’d consider a very bad land in this format, whereby its benefit of painless rainbow colours is greatly outweighed by the fact that anyone can stifle that.
January 14, 2019 6:29 p.m.
If we're exclusively considering cedh viable generals, yes. I could see the appeal for it in Muldrotha (I'm actually pretty sure Command Beacon spiked in price the day after Muldrotha was spoiled), or something like Lord Windgrace.
I can understand why none of the other Max Power generals don't run it, because it's just not needed. Teferi doesn't care about Commander Tax becuase it's probably never going to be in a situation where that's largely relevant. Tazri's a Food Chain deck, so it requires the Command Zone's casting a bunch of times. Zur doesn't care, the partners are cheap enough where it's not needed. And so on.
I guess I just wouldn't say it's a garbage card because it's awkward in decks that don't have a reason. It's very useful if you can make use of it. And in Gitrog's case, commander tax can become too much to bear, and it makes Gitrog easier to resolve in later stages.
It's just not a universal staple for a landbase.
January 14, 2019 5:19 p.m.
Sorry mate, you'd be demonstrably wrong in that guesstimate of CB being restricted to Prossh, as The Gitrog Monster is a prime example of a cedh General that runs Command Beacon - and for obvious reasons. I'd invite you to check any competitively viable (Leptys, razzliox, or Noobzaurs) build for proof.
And if a user chose to build a competitive Gitrog deck and they don't run it as one of their 35 or 36 lands, then they're wrong lol. It's just useful in any given situation for the fact that it preemptively avoids commander tax, and can be reused as builds run either Crucible, or Ramunap Excavator, or both.
Should every deck run it? No I don't think so at all. But Prossh would be a bit of a silly example for a deck that would be restricted to this land in my opinion, since that entire precon block is built around abusing the command zone - with 3/5 generals benefitting players for spending Commander Tax (Jeleva, Prossh, Marath), Oloro for just squatting in the Zone, and Derevi for not caring about the Zone or Commander tax altogether.
Also, it's worth mentioning, SynergyBuild you made a fantastic assessment of Strip Mine, which has made me rethink its slot in my Gitrog build. I was also just of the opinion that a well timed Strip Mine is just brutal - and it is, and I do run Crucible to make use of its recursion. But in a 4-pod I can certainly understand the disadvantage it puts you in. I don't run as many land-granters anymore, as I cut Oracle, Burgeoning and Azusa so I don't get that nifty multiple Strip Mine play with Crucible on the battlefield.
January 14, 2019 4:56 p.m.
Oh I don't doubt the anecdotal evidence supporting Aluren. Again, it's a powerful card by its own right and the Legacy deck it belongs to. I just make it a habit of trying not to add cards that could potentially help just 1 of the 3 opponents. That's all I meant by the suggestion. I can understand the attraction to any elfball-type deck or decks that just dump their hand full of cheap creatures.
And definitely, if you could, play both tutors. I didn't see it, but Heroic Intervention is also great to protect your things.
And I know there is a success factor with Akroma's Memorial. I just generally steer clear from large costing Artifacts - I am pretty sure Seton should be able to win without it and before it's typically cast. And I wouldn't go as far as saying it's inherently better than Concordant Crossroads, as the 6 mana, at least to me, does carry some considerable weight when assessing both. Akroma has more effects going on, but the speed of casting Crossroads shouldn't be discounted, either. It's a global enchantment, so it kinda goes against my previous point, but it's benefit of being able to give haste to everything isn't as much of a downside as letting your opponents play creature cards for free at instant speed.
I'm more just offering suggestions if this list is to be considered as an example of the best possible tuned deck for Seton, I feel like cards like Akroma's Memorial and Coat of Arms could be better served with other slots. But I dig the list.
I also love Command Beacon, but I'm a FrogHorror player, so perhaps I'm a little biased to its inherent benefit I get over other decks.
January 14, 2019 2:39 p.m.
Seton's template deck, before this hodgepodge of a list happened was submitted by LabMan Cobblepott and was either Tier 2 or 2.5 if I remember correctly:
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 23 | 9 COMMENTS | 9312 VIEWS | IN 19 FOLDERS
I think - especially looking between the two lists, you may take some helpful notes. I'd probably agree with Cobble's list regarding the land count; 35 seems pretty high when you can generate absurd mana regardless and that opens up a few slots.
I've never liked Aluren outside of Legacy. And I find it relatively "weak" in EDH. The card itself isn't weak and I can absolutely understand why people choose to run it, but EDH is a very creature dominant format when you're looking at things that cost under 3. Aluren sounds like it's in your favour, and I'm sure in that matchup it may be. But its a card that benefits an opponent, and guessing that it won't benefit them seems like a risk not worth taking.
Things like Ring of Three Wishes or Akroma's Memorial and Coat of Arms - while fine cards in their own right, they're just not competitively viable enough to warrant an inclusion - outside of anecdotal instances where a card could perform admirably, are there cards that could be more powerful to you, harmful to others?
I loved my Seton deck back when I had it.
January 14, 2019 2:09 p.m.
I really wish the people who updated the list didn't just remove everyone's decklist. I'm pretty sure thegigi's Daxos list was the general's representative:
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 4 | 45 COMMENTS | 1392 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS
Primary wincon was LEDBomberman into infinite Enchantment Creatures which looks to play with Alter of the Brood.
January 14, 2019 9:16 a.m.
Also, wasn’t this the old tier list for Shirei?
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 2 | 7 COMMENTS | 1749 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER
Is this one not good anymore?
January 12, 2019 5:19 p.m.
When Partners were first introduced with C16 it took a small window but players quickly realized that the ability to add a 4th colour meant pushing previously higher Generals down a peg or two - Narset and Kaalia being the most memorable (those two in particular also suffered considerably from the mulligan change).
Partners as a whole have opened the doors to some impressive builds; take a gander at Thrasios/Tymna, Thrasios/Vial Smasher, Tymna/Tana for a few sweet examples.
Unfortunately the BBD Partners were all very mediocre as they only had one colour per commander. And the abilities were lackluster. Calvin and Hobbes are probably the best.
January 12, 2019 4:55 p.m.
Are they cedh viable? Nah probably not but you’re guaranteed to get someone asking to RTC because they just don’t know wtf it is, and that makes me moist.
January 12, 2019 4:46 p.m.
It’s not at full potential, but I had some fairly positive results with Muldrotha Enchantress since there were some cleverer Cumulative Upkeep enchantments or sacable ones that could be reused.
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 39 | 57 COMMENTS | 3336 VIEWS | IN 10 FOLDERS
At think, at the time I threw other shit in there like the Gitrog Combo, but I feel like Sultai Enchantress was a sweet build for Muldrotha, especially with Second Chance
January 12, 2019 2:22 p.m.
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 208 | 73 COMMENTS | 14926 VIEWS | IN 48 FOLDERS
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 29 | 12 COMMENTS | 2376 VIEWS | IN 10 FOLDERS
SCORE: 152 | 56 COMMENTS | 7406 VIEWS | IN 28 FOLDERS
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 43 | 46 COMMENTS | 1239 VIEWS | IN 8 FOLDERS
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 164 | 266 COMMENTS | 28593 VIEWS | IN 104 FOLDERS
SCORE: 120 | 34 COMMENTS | 4407 VIEWS | IN 27 FOLDERS
SCORE: 13 | 16 COMMENTS | 1739 VIEWS | IN 4 FOLDERS
SCORE: 47 | 16 COMMENTS | 2625 VIEWS | IN 11 FOLDERS
|Avg. deck rating||45.41|
|Favorite formats||Legacy, Commander / EDH, Modern, Pauper|
|Good Card Suggestions||274|
|Venues||Face to Face Games - Toronto, A&C Games, Three Kingdoms Games Eglinton|
|Last activity||2 days|