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- Hymn of the Wilds (this card sucks in multiplayer. Every deck needs its instants and sorceries)
- Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast gold cards should fit an archetype or just be good, and this doesnt fit either category
- Ghost Council of Orzhova pretty bad actually
- Figure of Destiny I think your initial impression was right. Lets scrap it
- Magister of Worth white has enough wrath effects
- Tidehollow Strix no comment
- Arlinn Kord Flip I think Xenagos is better based on how the archetypes are shaping up
- Surrak Dragonclaw I think Maelstrom Wanderer fits the archetypes in temur better (spells, gruul beats and whatever simic does)
- Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile discourages attacks, even against other players, which is bad. If we had included Azorius hard control, stax or tax this card would be fine though
- Gustcloak Savior I dont think it does enough
- Herald of the Host Serra Angel isnt good enough for this format
- Kytheon, Hero of Akros Flip pikers arent good enough in this format, and he sucks as a planeswalker I think
- Crescendo of War too slow
- Dusk / Dawn I think that ultimately there wont be a deck that really benefits from this
- Just a general note about white: we have too many pump effects. Lets cut a couple.
- Broodbirth Viper fine if the cube is lower power level, but its quite high now
- Quickling do we have a deck for this card?
- Serendib Efreet this card doesnt match up well against multiple opponents
- Reverse Engineer too narrow
- Should we include a few more morphs so that stratus dancer is less obvious? Maybe Willbender, Thousand Winds and Kheru Spellsnatcher? At least all these cards kick ass in multiplayer.
- Bloodghast only good in one deck, and even then, it requires some setup. I feel Reassembling Skeleton is a better option for the cube.
- Sly Requisitioner too narrow
- Triskaidekaphobia cute but too shitty
- Dark Confidant I realized this card will probably just kill you.
- Phyrexian Metamorph feel kind of stupid for missing this
- Spellskite maybe this sucks, I dunno
- Curse of the Swine
- Kheru Spellsnatcher
- Thousand Winds
- Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
- Waste Not
- Innocent Blood
- Bloodchief Ascension
- Gray Merchant of Asphodel
- Reassembling Skeleton
I think our next task will be deciding which are the best 50 or so cards in each color from our pool. that should lay the groundwork for deciding which narrow cards (i.e., archetype-specific) cards we should include. Curious to hear your thoughts on cuts/additions!
May 19, 2017 1:30 a.m.
Wedge/Shard additions based on our discussion yesterday:
- Sphinx of the Steel Wind
- Teneb, the Harvester
- Queen Marchesa
- Narset, Enlightened Master
- Surrak Dragonclaw
- Blade of the Bloodchief
- Mycosynth Wellspring (too narrow I think)
- Ichor Wellspring (same)
- Trading Post (you said you didnt like it. Im fine to cut it.
- Brago, King Eternal
- Swans of Bryn Argoll
- Thistledown Liege
- Fires of Yavimaya
- Blood Baron of Vizkopa
- Treasury Thrull
- Bounty of the Luxa
- Shattergang Brothers
- Ghave, Guru of Spores
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
- Sharuum the Hegemon
- Wall of Omens
- Wall of Essence
- Aerie Mystics
- Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
- Planar Cleansing (maybe Austere Command instead)
- Citadel Siege (doesnt support any particular archetype, not good enough for good stuff)
- Fog Bank
- Guard Gomazoa
- Wall of Frost
- Bastion Inventor (doesnt do enough I dont think, but we can re-evaluate if we take this more in the affinity direction)
- War Tax
- March of the Machines (it doesnt seem like this is what the artefact deck wants to do for now!)
- Courier's Capsule (to me this is just a worse version of Etherium Astrolabe)
- Scepter of Fugue (doesnt really do anything
- Rhonas the Indomitable (Nylea is just better for this archetype I think)
Note: Nothing has been cut yet. Do you agree with them? If not, please let me know which :)
May 15, 2017 10:40 a.m.
- Azorius Signet
- Boros Signet
- Dimir Signet
- Golgari Signet
- Gruul Signet
- Izzet Signet
- Orzhov Signet
- Rakdos Signet
- Selesnya Signet
- Simic Signet
- your and my suggestions for flyers
Regarding flyers, here are some good draws into bant. Not sure what the rest of the payoff is for green (maybe you grab cards like Glare of Subdual, Sylvan Library, Survival of the Fittest, Edric, Spymaster of Trest or big green beaters), but I figured we should enable that color combo a bit more while staying on-theme:
- Coldsteel Heart
- Fellwar Stone
- Mind Stone
- Pristine Talisman (though this might be keepable for drain. Maybe we will put it back in later)
- Quirion Elves
- Urborg Elf
- Utopia Tree
- Beastcaller Savant
- Channeler Initiate
- Sylvan Caryatid
- Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician (this should have been removed before this update)
- The tempting cards. I mentioned this before, but we should assume that our playgroup isnt stupid enough to fall for these traps.
- Obelisk of Urd (no real tribal support will be possible it seems)
Regarding blink: I would be fine with that, but I think it would be better to see if there's room once we start trimming down the cube.
Green is looking pretty underpowered right now (no real big threats, not much utility. we should fix that)
May 11, 2017 3:42 a.m.
I really like this direction of uw, seems a lot stronger and more forgiving to draft. It plays well with the rest of the cube and there is definitly room for some crazy stuff in the colour pair!Potential addition
Aerie Mystics good splash in fliers
Thunderclap Wyvern this is just good
Drogskol Reaver high, high end of the fliers deck, good with equipment
What do you think of a blink subtheme? It works well with some of the cards already in the cube and with these additions i think it could be cool. Adding some blink would make it so that both wx and ux could go in that direction and bring more depth to The cube. Exampels Conjurer's Closet
There are more but these are the ones i came up with off the top of my head.
To clarify, i'm not saying that we should make an archetype out of this, just that it could be good value in the cube. Since most of the blink spells doubles as protection i could see them go into multiple decks.
I like the cuts and I could also see trimming the number of high end artifacts. Just to smooth out the cube.
May 10, 2017 8:41 a.m.
Additions (trying to push boros. We can remove anything on this list, of course):
- Hellrider (very strong incentive to play red IMO)
- Lightning Bolt (Not sure why this isnt in here)
- Chain Lightning
- Forked Bolt
- Spectral Procession (works across archetypes)
- Midnight Haunting (works across archetypes)
- Dragon Fodder
- Krenko's Command
- Spear of Heliod
- Angel of Invention
- Call for Unity
- Consul's Lieutenant
- Crescendo of War
- Dictate of Heliod
- Eldrazi Monument
- Elspeth, Sun's Champion
- Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
- Glory of Warfare
- Goldnight Commander
- Jazal Goldmane
- Instigator Gang Flip
- Soltari Champion
- Sunhome Guildmage
- Grand Abolisher
- Charging Cinderhorn (this just seems fun. may be too shitty)
Things to consider for UW (not added, lets discuss):
- Thistledown Liege
- Thunderclap Wyvern
- Pride of the Clouds
- Sprite Noble
- Aerial Responder
- Darien, King of Kjeldor
- Selfless Spirit
- Dragonlord Ojutai
- Wingmate Roc
- Swans of Bryn Argoll
- Aven Mimeomancer
- Stratus Dancer
- Sphinx of Magosi
- Glen Elendra Archmage
- Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
- Windborn Muse
- Twilight Shepherd
- Archangel of Tithes
- Archangel Avacyn Flip
- Gisela, the Broken Blade
- Bruna, the Fading Light (Pretty nice if fliers has a lot of angels)
- Serendib Efreet (this seems dangerous with only 20 life)
- Sower of Temptation
- Notorious Throng
- Oona, Queen of the Fae
- Brago, King Eternal
- Consecrated Sphinx
- Angel of Jubilation
- Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
- Goblin Legionnaire
- Thassa, God of the Sea (doesnt drive an archetype, not good enough for good stuff)
Do we include sigets? I think it might be a good idea.
May 10, 2017 1:33 a.m.
- Tragic Slip (good against gods)
- Deathreap Ritual (good pull towards Golgari, good splash for Rakdos and Selesnya)
- Malicious Affliction (good black targeted removal)
- Morbid Curiosity (good in Artifacts and Golgari)
- Mirrorweave (seems like it could get pretty zany, also works as a functional wrath if you target a legendary creature)
- Slate of Ancestry (seems like a better option than Harmonize and the like for colors without CA)
- Thundermaw Hellkite (just busted)
- Hellkite Charger (lets speed up the game a bit)
- Illusionist's Gambit (a hilarious gotcha card in blue)
- Thalia, Heretic Cathar (this card makes the aggro deck in the pod much more threatening)
- Cavern Harpy
- Boros Charm
- Boartusk Liege
- Goblin Chieftain
- Goblin King
- Goblin Lackey
- Goblin Matron
- Goblin Piledriver
- Goblin Recruiter
- Goblin Warchief
- Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician
- Krenko, Mob Boss
- Skirk Fire Marshal
- Warren Instigator
Potential cuts (not removed, waiting your feedback):
- Sylvan Primordial (too much value I think)
- Sundering Titan (again, too much value)
- Nahiri, the Harbinger (she is good but doesnt support any archetypes)
- Merchant's Dockhand (very durdly. I actually hate this card, to be honest lol)
- Gruul Charm (doesnt do enough. There are better options to stop blocks)
- Merciless Eviction I think this is too good, actually. I dont want the build/reset dynamic unless you really pay a cost for it.
- Supreme Verdict (see: Merciless Eviction)
- Dovescape I think this will actually lead to too many board stalls. Not worth it.
- Reparations Doesnt do enough
- Darksteel Mutation (not necessary. We have enough good white removal)
- Limited Resources too mean.
- Tempt with Glory the tokens deck wants this, but I think it will only be better than a 6-mana put a +1/+1 on each creature you control when playing against gruul.
- Filigree Sages too little payoff for those stats
- Skill Borrower this card just sucks
- Shape Anew very bad. I love tinker, but nah.
- Black Sun's Zenith too good.
- Dread Return We said no reanimation
- Animate Dead
- Bonfire of the Damned too mean
- Starstorm too good I think. Rolling Thunder could be a good replacement?
- Tempt with Discovery I hope were playing with people smart enough not to fall for this trap
- Fang of the Pack (I think this card is not very good. I like that it has melee, but its not the best for a 6-drop)
Goblin Tribal just didnt seem viable unless you draft AND CAST Krenko. The deck leans too hard on one card and is too all-in for the multiplayer format. Sorry Goblins!
I left in the GU liege in case we want to do tap control in Simic, but I think we should move away from that archetype. I think I am more into ramp (Rashmi etc.) or cheating (Show and Tell effects). Maybe Simic is just good enough that we dont really need to plan too much for it. I dunno.
Still torn about Azorius. Do you think we have enough control in the format as-is? Can we do creature control with blinks? I want to move away from walls and wraths if possible, but I also want control (in whatever form we decide to do it) to be viable. Its important to me that there is room for control players to have plenty of fun drafting and playing, but its also important to keep the pace of the game. I think where we are now is a good mix of aggro/midrange slugfest plus control elements that cut them down and build CA over time.
May 8, 2017 12:08 p.m.
adding these cards. Some nice stuff for Boros. I think we are pretty set on this archetype. Now we just need to settle on Azorius and Simic and then we can start making cuts :)
May 5, 2017 4:31 p.m.
I agree with all of these. When it comes to creature balance i feel that all colours does not need the same amount of creatures but we still need to make sure that each colour has enough to be playable.
I also feel that we need to cut down on gold cards and maybe on high end cards. I think that the curve is really high at the moment.
May 5, 2017 5:02 a.m.
Thinking a bit about how to make UB artifacts flex a bit into R and G without forcing it. Esper is already there, I think. Came up with these additions:
Other good Artifacts that dont require you to build around:
Other potential cuts (not removed):
- Lieges. We could keep the UW one if we wanna do UW fliers, and we could keep the WR one to give tokens a bit more edge. Could also keep Creakwood Liege for sac fodder in GB
- Cavern Harpy We dont have a deck for it
- Boros Charm Its a bit too narrow
- Lexivore This is going to be a pain in the ass in complex board states.
General notes: we have way too many indestructible creatures. Lets tone it down a bit.
May 4, 2017 3:17 p.m.
I agree, it's time to start trimming. But first, we still need to settle on some archetypes...
What will we do for Simic? Looking at the cards we currently have, it's not clear what direction we should go. We have some of the elements of tap control, some ramp and turboland (i think this could be the most fun, but i dunno).
What do we do with Azorius? We currently have a base for Tax, Fliers . So confused!
With regards to cards per color per archetype: I think this is a fine approach, but I'm not sure about the numbers. We're going to have a lot of cross-over cards. How do we count them?
Also, I don't think that creatures/noncreatures need to be evenly distributed among colors. For example, we don't have any B/x midrange decks, so it's not critical for me to have on-curve B creatures. But... I could be wrong about that :) Thoughts?
May 4, 2017 3:15 p.m.
Also now we need to talk about making cuts. The way i see it we have to make sure that each colour and archetype is balanced in power, playability and diversity (creatures/non-creatures) depending on how many gold and colourless cards we want i can see this being a discussion.
The way i see it each colour has four variants and a "value" category for exampel:If we go for 60 cards of each colour black would look something like this ;
10 cards for Bw
10 cards for Bu
10 cards for Br
10 cards for Bg
20 value cards
The archetype cards are not necessary only playable in the archetype but should promote the archetype while drafting.
The value cards should be things like removal, ca or just cards that are good in either archetype.
I would say that around 60 to 80 cards of each colour is where we want to be and at least 10 cards of each archetype but i would rather do closer to 15.
May 4, 2017 9:16 a.m.
Update focused on UW control
Some amount of sweepers will be needed to make the archetype playable and these are the ones that i feel gives the best direction
To hold the fort until victory
I'm not in love with these but they might do something
Brago, King Eternal I think this guy is just good
Detention Sphere maybe
Karmic Justice good but maybe too narrow?
May 4, 2017 4:20 a.m.
I really like what you say about replacing cards with enchantment equivalents! I don't think either necropotence or yawgbar is something that we want in the cube, i believe that they will either be broken in some decks or just unplayable.
Regarding the White removal i see your concern, is it possible to do enchantress without including to much of that type of removal? Oblivion ring and pacificm are obviously in but more then that?
Concerning blood rites, i think blood rites is just a strong card with a lot of play and acts both as a value engine, screws with combat math and as a wincon. My only concern is that Maybe it's to slow. This does not apply to Goblin bombardment in the same extent.
Overall i like a lot of the inclusions and i'm interested to see how the new split cards turn out! I'll make som additions for uw in a bit /E
May 3, 2017 4:46 p.m.
Some stuff I think I accidentally added, but wanted to actually discuss first:+Necropotence (Do we wanna go there?)+Yawgmoth's Bargain (Theres no combo pay-off that I can see. Is this card still too dangerous?)+Ancient Tomb (Fast mana is fast, but then again you do become arch enemy pretty fast)+Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (is this too much?)+Spellweaver Volute (this card is just weird, but seems like it could be cool. Thoughts?)
- Verduran Enchantress
- Mesa Enchantress
- Argothian Enchantress
- Eidolon of Blossoms
- Enchantress's Presence
- Aura Shards
- Mirri's Guile
- Heliod, God of the Sun
- Quarantine Field
- Prison Term
- Faith's Fetters
- Darksteel Mutation
- Aura of Silence
- Karmic Justice
- Sterling Grove
- Abundant Growth
- Wild Growth
- Utopia Sprawl
- Mirari's Wake
- Debtors' Knell
- Nyx-Fleece Ram
- Bear Umbra
- Luminarch Ascension
- Awakening Zone
- Grasp of Fate
- Suppression Field
- Holistic Wisdom
- Sacred Mesa
- Limited Resources (I realize this card is extremely oppressive)
- Fertile Ground
- Trace of Abundance
- Mana Bloom
- Dovescape (Im just curious about this card. Cant tell if its good or not. Certainly interesting!)
- Earthcraft (theres a cute combo with Squirrel Nest if we decide we wanna do that)
- Privileged Position
- Glare of Subdual (This gets pretty brutal with Seedborn Muse and Prophet of Kruphix in the format. Just something to think about.)
- Khalni Heart Expedition
- Oath of Druids (Finally a card we can break lol)
- Evolutionary Leap
- Primeval Bounty (is this good enough? Seems interesting at least.)
- Bounty of the Luxa
- As Foretold (Yeah boi)
- Golgari Germination (works across archetypes)
- Necrogenesis (a few decks might want this)
More stuff for Orzhov Drain:
- Trade Secrets (cards cards cards)
- Treasure Cruise (fuck it)
- Dig Through Time (fuck it twice)
- Metallurgic Summonings (Spells payoff that packs a punch)
- Mizzix's Mastery (without payoffs like storm or turnabout I think this is safe)
- Jori En, Ruin Diver (maybe not good enough)
- Melek, Izzet Paragon
- Kolaghan's Command (must include now that artifacts is an archetype)
Notes on Enchantress:
First, the payoffs are not super broken. There arent that many cards that REALLY reward you for having or interacting with enchantments, but once the deck comes together its highly synergistic. We could make people more interested in choosing Enchantress as an archetype by adding lots of g and gX enchantment-based mana acceleration in place of cards like llanowar elves (while still leaving the best dorks). Decks that would be interested in ramping might suddenly find themselves interested in enchantment cards like wild growths of bounty of the luxa. What do you think?
Also, Im worried that enchantress skews removal in general towards white. Since so much of the archetypes pulls are removals, we end up having more white removal in the cube.
May 3, 2017 3:58 p.m.
Lots of text coming up, so get ready!
Regarding your additions:
Blood Rites and Goblin Bombardment: great in 1v1, but I think it might be a bit too all-in in multiplayer. let's discuss!
Bonfire: I don't like that it affects only one player. Very mean. Let's find a niceer alternative.
Grim Haruspex: This is a great inclusion I think. Very glad to have it in the cube :)
- Wooded Foothills
- Windswept Heath
- Bloodstained Mire
- Polluted Delta
- Flooded Strand
- Misty Rainforest
- Scalding Tarn
- Marsh Flats
- Arid Mesa
- Verdant Catacombs
- Hallowed Fountain
- Overgrown Tomb
- Steam Vents
- Sacred Foundry
- Temple Garden
- Godless Shrine
- Breeding Pool
- Watery Grave
- Blood Crypt
- Stomping Ground
Fetches means some new additions:
- Deathrite Shaman (synergizes with several archetypes, obvious inclusion)
- Aven Mindcensor
- Stifle (Im not super sold on this, but I thought we should include it anyway)
- Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
- Blood Moon
- Price of Progress
And just some fun stuff:
- Pyromancer's Goggles (cool in Izzet, but maybe too narrow)
- Lingering Souls (just value, good in many archetypes)
- Fork (worth it? Well have to see what the spells end up looking like)
- Reverberate (see above)
- Commandeer (this is probably better than fork/reverberate, but who knows)
- Misdirection (see above)
- Combat Celebrant (Im more curious about this card than anything else)
- Insult to Injury (great in token swarm and gruul beats)
- Never//Return (one-for-one removal isnt great, but the additional value could be good)
- Cut to Ribbons (kinda just want to try this)
- Garruk Relentless Flip (very good in Golgari sacrifice)
I think Im pretty high on these split/modal cards. I want to use them just because theyre new, but I also I think that multi-use cards like these could be interesting because of minimized card disadvantage. What do you think?
Regarding lands: we should figure out which we want to cut. Obviously the guildgates are bad maybe we give scrylands instead? I think the tri-lands should go to reduce the amount of 4-c decks in each pod. It looks like the format will be durdly enough as it is. Speaking of durdling
I know youre not going to like this, but I think we might have to add more ways to speed up the game. I dont really want to see a format where defensive posture is the standard. Right now we have goad and rakdos to force action, but if we end up needing more I do recommend adding monarch (or something else if you have a better idea). Basically, I dont want non-red pods to play the game without pressure, so whatever we do to mitigate that risk is good for me
May 3, 2017 8:10 a.m.
O clues could be cool, we'll have to look into that! In The meentime i updated with these bad Boys
Blood Rites good in red across the board and a good slash for BG
Goblin Bombardment good in Goblins/tokens or even BR
Bonfire of the Damned this might be to opressive
Grim Haruspex potential for BG might be underwhelming
May 3, 2017 5:29 a.m.
Very happy with many of these additions. Whirler Rogue and Thirst for Knowledge are exactly the kind of "good stuff" inclusions that I think we were missing! I also like fabricate in here, as it works in any U/x deck with artifact bombs, which we currently have a lot of.
One thing we might want to consider is Clue tokens. Think that could be something?
May 3, 2017 1:23 a.m.
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