Yarok, the Desecrated + Burgeoning Interaction
Asked by sabba5600 4 years ago
So this question came up and devolved into a 30 minute argument where people couldn't agree on the interaction.
If I have both Yarok, the Desecrated and Burgeoning on the field do i get to use burgeoning twice when an opponent "plays" a land (from hand)?
One side of argument says no because "Whenever an opponent plays a land, you may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield" is not a triggered effect that is copy able. The act of playing a land does not use the stack. and if it was intended this way should use wording similar to landfall that says whenever a land enters the battlefield (not played)
The other side says yes because the the wording of burgeoning uses the word "whenever" which is a triggered effect and Yarok makes a triggered ability of a permanent entering to happen again.
So is the Burgeoning triggered effect happening by the act of playing a land but not the land entering the battlefield thus ignoring the exact wording of Yarok?
pretty sure i covered the points well enough in this and was hoping to get more opinions on the question since a quick google found one judge who apparently ruled "yes burgeoning would trigger twice" and the group still disagreed and i am hoping to find more people who either agree or not.
thank you for the response. now to convince other people of this......or just not play those two cards around them....
January 24, 2020 4:44 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #3
I definitely wouldn't do the second. That is probably what they are hoping for because there is no way that the Gatherer ruling clearly calling it a "trigger" is not clear enough to them. As well as the ability clearly following the exact formatting specified by the comprehensive rules.
January 24, 2020 4:53 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #4
I question whether it's truly exactly "a permanent entering the battlefield" causing the trigger here, since Burgeoning is written specifically to trigger when an opponent takes the special action of playing a land, but I don't have any good examples or convincing arguments to back up that position.
January 24, 2020 5 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #5
You see, that is an interesting point and one that might be convincing. I got caught up in the "is it a trigger" line of thinking and didn't consider is it triggered from a permanent entering the battlefield. There is a precedent for triggers triggering off of special actions (every "when ___ is turned face up" on morph creatures) so I now agree with Rhadamanthus. Yarok, the Desecrated does not interact with Burgeoning. Not because it isn't a trigger, but because the trigger isn't caused by a permanent entering the battlefield.
January 24, 2020 5:25 p.m.
Monomanamaniac says... #6
I know this question is answered, but I would like to put in my 2 cents here. "Whenever" is definitely a trigger word, no doubt. And in order to play a land the opponent has to put a permanent onto the battlefield. This would definitely trigger Yarok, the Desecrated because it's a triggered ability caused by a permanent (lands are not spells, they are definitely permanents; and you don't cast them, but they do enter the battlefield when you play them) entering the battlefield. If yarok cared about casting, then definitely not, but with this it's straight forward. Anyone trying to argue against this is just sour about having to play against yarok. Not saying that about the wonderful people commenting here, they're wonderful and giving their honest opinions on the matter from an objective points of view. I was just referencing your opponents who say that's not going to work.
January 27, 2020 3:38 a.m.
multimedia says... #7
So is the Burgeoning triggered effect happening by the act of playing a land but not the land entering the battlefield thus ignoring the exact wording of Yarok? Yes, therefore Burgeoning doesn't trigger Yarok.
Opponent playing a land is the action that triggers Burgeoning which is before the land enters the battlefield. Burgeoning doesn't trigger from something entering the battlefield which is what Yarok looks for. Burgeoning triggers from an opponent taking the special action of playing a land. The wording of "playing a land" is different than "a land enters the battlefield".
It's the same way with you playing a land; that action doesn't trigger Yarok. It's the other cards that are on the battlefield when the land enters the battlefield that trigger Yarok. Landfall's wording for example is "whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control". Landfall triggers Yarok because of the wording "land enters the battlefield". If Landfall's wording instead said "whenever you play a land" then it wouldn't trigger Yarok.
January 27, 2020 4:52 a.m.
I'd have to agree with the "Burgeoning isn't doubled by Yarok" ruling.
From the rules section on Lands:
- 305.4. Effects may also allow players to “put” lands onto the battlefield. This isn’t the same as “playing a land” and doesn’t count as a land played during the current turn.
Since Burgeoning specifically triggers off of "playing a land," it's not the act of the land entering the battlefield that's triggering it, but the special action. If, somehow, a player was able to stop the land play from completing (akin to countering or stifling it, though that doesn't currently exist in the rules), Burgeoning would still have triggered, the same as any ability that triggers off of a spell being cast, even if that spell was countered before it could resolve.
So because of that, since it's not a permanent entering the battlefield, but a special action being taken, that is triggering Burgeoning, Yarok's ability is not implicated here.
It's a minor distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.
January 27, 2020 11:12 a.m. Edited.
The closest ruling I could find was for Teysa Karlov:
1/25/2019 An ability that triggers on an event that causes a creature to die doesn't trigger twice. For example, an ability that triggers "whenever you sacrifice a creature" triggers only once.
There aren't many abilities that trigger off of playing a land as opposed to a land entering the battlefield, so it isn't surprising that Yarok, the Desecrated doesn't have a ruling here, but to demonstrate the difference, consider what happens when an opponent plays a Kjeldoran Outpost without a plains to sacrifice. Burgeoning will trigger, but because Kjeldoran Outpost never entered the battlefield it's fairly evident that Yarok won't double it. Since it's an ability that triggers off of something distinct from entering the battlefield, even though it typically results in a permanent entering the battlefield, Yarok never sees it.
January 27, 2020 12:17 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #10
Thanks Neotrup for finding the Kjeldoran Outpost example. That shows entering the battlefield is only the usual result of the act of playing a land, and can be replaced with another event by a replacement effect. The comparison to the Teysa Karlov ruling is also helpful.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #1
Ok, so it is a triggered ability and will be copied by Yarok, the Desecrated. The two most simple pieces of proof to disprove the people arguing that it isn't a triggered ability are:
The only Gatherer ruling on Burgeoning is "Playing a land will trigger it, but putting a land onto the battlefield as part of an effect will not." clearly indicating that it is a trigger, as well as why it says "play" instead of "enters the battlefield".
The comprehensive rule defining what is a triggered ability is "603.1. Triggered abilities have a trigger condition and an effect. They are written as “[When/Whenever/At] [trigger condition or event], [effect]. [Instructions (if any).]”"
January 24, 2020 4:37 p.m.