Would Enchanted Evening + Opalescence + Humility save everyone's lands but have them not able to tap for mana?
Asked by dragonstryke58 7 years ago
I just want to double check.
I am pretty sure that if there's an Enchanted Evening out on the field and I put an Opalescence, if there are no anthem effects, everyone's lands will die as a SBA due to the fact that lands don't have a casting cost and all enchantments are now creatures with power and toughness equal to their CMC.
If I had a Humility out, then that would potentially save everyone's lands since now all creatures would have base P/T of 1/1 and there would be no point in time where SBAs are checked where this wouldn't be the case. However, people just wouldn't be able to tap for mana since that is an activated ability.
As I said, I just want to double check and make sure this interaction works the way I want it to (and think it does).
This is one of those really tricky questions that require the use of layers and timestamps.
I do not feel I have the skill required to answer this adequately, so I am calling in Epochalyptik and Rhadamanthus
(My guess is Opalesence coming in last will make all lands 1/1s with no abilities. But that is probably wrong)
May 28, 2016 4:49 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #3
Static abilities apply to all applicable cards immediately they become relevant.
Humility's static ability affects all creatures. Before Opalescence is in play, it doesn't affect lands because they are not creatures. They are, right now, Enchantment Lands.
Because both Opalescence and Humility both have static effects that change the power/toughness of cards, they are applied in timestamp order. Meaning whichever enchantment came in Most Recently is the one who's P/T change will be used.
613.6c An object receives a timestamp at the time it enters a zone.
613.6a A continuous effect generated by a static ability has the same timestamp as the object the static ability is on, or the timestamp of the effect that created the ability, whichever is later.
613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied. Effects that refer to the base power and/or toughness of a creature apply in this layer.
If Opalescence is in play first, and then Humility enters the battlefield, the lands will immediately become enchantment land creatures with base P/T 1/1 and no abilities. Meaning they will not have their inherent mana abilities anymore, rendering them useless for mana production.
If Humility is in play first, then Opalescence enters, the lands will immediately become enchantment land creatures with base P/T 0/0 and no abilities. Then they will all die as a state based action for having 0 toughness.
If both Humility and Opalescence enter the battlefield simultaneously, the active player determines in what order the timestamps will be matched to the cards. (Note that the active player may not always be the controller of those cards i.e Warp World was cast).
613.6j If two or more objects would receive a timestamp simultaneously, such as by entering a zone simultaneously or becoming attached simultaneously, the active player determines their relative timestamp order at that time.
May 28, 2016 7:38 p.m.
dragonstryke58 says... #4
@Raging_Squiggle: Thank for clearing up about timestamps. I always get messed up with them.
But how about the part I was wondering about the loop?
Just the part when Opalescence enters the battlefield with Humility already in play... Humility would then become a enchantment creature from Opalescence's ability then subjected to its own ability (becoming a creatue with base P/T 1/1 with no abilites). What happens then?
And since Enchanted Evening was on the battlefield it too would lose its ability due to Humility becoming a creature and losing its ability to itself, wouldn't it? Meaning lands would therefore not be enchantments anymore...
Because Humility would lose its ability to itself after becoming a creature due to Opalescence, does this some how create a loop within the rules?
May 28, 2016 7:59 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #5
This is the current interaction between Humility and Opalescence: The type-changing effect applies at layer 4, but the rest happens in the applicable layers. The rest of it will apply even if the permanent loses its ability before its finished applying. So if Opalescence, Humility, and Worship are on the battlefield and Opalescence entered the battlefield before Humility, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments. (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities. (Humility) Layer 7b: Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4. (Opalescence). Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). But if Humility entered the battlefield before Opalescence, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities (Humility). Layer 7b: Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4 (Opalescence).
So, Enchanted Evening, Humility, and Opalescence are in play and Humility entered after Opalescence. The following happens:
Layer 4: Enchanted Evening, your lands, and Humility are enchantment creatures.
Layer 6: Enchanted Evening, your lands, and Humility lose all abilities.
Layer 7b: Enchanted Evening is a 5/5, Humility is a 4/4, your lands are all 0/0. Then time stamp applies and Enchanted Evening, Humility, and your lands are 1/1's.
Layer 4: your lands, and all non-inherent enchantments lose the enchantment and creature types, returning them to normal.
May 28, 2016 8:43 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #6
If Opalescence entered after Humility:
Layer 4: same as above
Layer 6: same as above
Layer7b: reversed. Final result would be all lands as 0/0 enchantment creature lands. Then SBA's would be checked and they would die immediately.
May 28, 2016 8:46 p.m.
dragonstryke58 says... #7
Ok cool. For some reason, I totally couldn't make sense of it on Gatherer.
Basically the TL:DR version is all that would do is void Enchanted Evening and Humility? The only difference in results due to the order of which entering the battlefield first would be the ending power and toughness of Enchanted Evening and Humility, correct?
May 28, 2016 8:53 p.m.
dragonstryke58 says... #8
sorry didn't get to see your second post while making my response.
I guess it looks like I am still a little confused.
May 28, 2016 8:59 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... Accepted answer #9
I'm glad you found that gatherer ruling. I know how the interaction works, but couldn't find the bit about the rest applying even if the ability is lost before it is done applying.
I am a little concerned as to why you went back to layer 4 after applying it once. You apply the layers in order starting from the base. All of the type changing effects happen in layer 4. The ability being removed in layer 6 does not "undo" the type change.
The end result is that the lands are either 1/1 with no abilities if Humility entered after Opalescence or 0/0 with no abilities if Opalescence entered after Humility. There is no "returning to normal".
May 28, 2016 9:03 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #10
Meh bad on that one. Forgot to delete that paragraph. But the rest is accurate, as far as my knowledge goes.
May 28, 2016 9:12 p.m.
dragonstryke58 says... #11
@Gidgetimer:
Oh ok I think that's where I was getting throw for a loop. You only go through the layers once, so even if something is changed in a lower layer through the removal of an ability you don't go back an undo what was already done?
So if that's the case then now I think I understand why the Gatherer rulings ended up as they did.
May 28, 2016 9:13 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #12
Correct. Once a layer has been successfully applied in the situation, you do not touch that layer again.
May 28, 2016 9:14 p.m.
dragonstryke58 says... #13
All right. Thank you both!
Learned something new today.
May 28, 2016 9:18 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #14
613 in the comp rules describes the interaction of continuous effects. It is three pages long so I'm not quoting the whole thing. 613.1 is layers and the important part about applying layers is in the main section before it goes into sub sections to describe the layers:
613.1. The values of an objects characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
It then lists the layers in order and does not say anything about going back and reapplying a previous layer.
May 28, 2016 9:20 p.m.
dragonstryke58 says... #15
I think it was mainly due to the fact that I was thinking a continuous effect was no longer in effect since something that was affecting something else changed, you would have to do the relevant procedure all over again.
Although the comp rules don't mention going back and reapplying a previous layer, I had thought that had more to do with the introduction and interaction of continuous effects and not necessarily the loss of a continuous effect (but I guess that continuous effect was lost due to another one).
Like since the thing turning all lands into enchantments no longer has that ability so lands would lose the enchantment type.
But it's good to know how the layers work. Thank you very much once again.
May 28, 2016 9:40 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #16
Layers and time stamps are probably the hardest concepts of Magic to learn and understand. But once you have, it suddenly becomes simple.
dragonstryke58 says... #1
Actually...I just realized this is much more complicated then I thought.
If I had an Enchanted Evening and a Humility out on the field and I played Opalescence, both Enchanted Evening and Humility would both become creatures and then be subjected to Humility's static ability which would make them base P/T 1/1 and lose their abilities...which would make them gain their abilities again?
Does it become a loop?
May 28, 2016 4:12 p.m.